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Hello dakkadakka,

I have noticed, that in a lot of threads there is wishing for rough riders to come back (either rule wise or with new models aswell). And I really don't get it. What is the love about? In my mind, they don't fit in and I don't really like the flavour of them. So in a total neutral way asked: What is it, you love so much about rough riders? I also have to say, that I got into guard after they were kicked out of the codex. It seems to me, it's not just that they were good rulewise, but people really like the idea and flavour of them.Is it just because of the DKoK-Riders?

I think there's a few things

1) Legacy armies - many people have rough rider models and want to be able to use them again in formal matched play games and tournament events. They've put money and hours into making them.

2) Imperial Guard are modelled on WWI style designs and tactics with a sci-fi edge to them. It's why their Lemon Russ battle tank basically uses nothing of modern tank design theories in its design; its why their artillery looks very old style; its why they fight rank and file in trenches. Heck the old Land Raider had 360 access tracks (no top cover) and was an Imperial Guard tank (before Marines stole it) and was very much similar to early tank designs made to get around trenches.

In that same line of thinking the warhorse was part of WWI and fits the asthetics of the army. It fits that whole grand system of bureaucratic madness that would see them mounted up and on the front lines

3) It fits with the hints that GW might well release dogs as units for Imperial Guard as well. Again another wartime animal.


Overall I really hope they get them back, its one unit that I think is very iconic for the guard as a group rather like the Russ battletank. It just formed the core part of so many armies in the past that it makes sense to have them restored to their rightful place in the wars of the 41st millennium

1) Nostalgia.
ii) Nostalgia.
c) They're cool.
Z) Nostalgia.

That's why I made mine. They sit in a box and rarely get played but they're very cool!

At times, they’ve been viable counter assault units.

I converted some for the giggles, and had fun with them.

They typically can run a pair of special weapons. Given their high speed, this made them quite capable of getting flamers and meltaguns into range.

They had S5, which made them suitable for charging most vehicles that had AV 10 on the rear.

I would have preferred motorized mounts, myself, but the rules were usually playable, and having “Guardsmen” that could stab face in assault was unique.

I'd rather they were replaced with ww2 style German bikers, myself.

Because many people for whatever reason fail to note that the "Rough Riders" that are performing well/being taken to tournaments are actually Death Riders from the DKoK list which have unique rules and access to HQs that benefit them.

Plus they're perpetually stuck in the "Guard can only be one thing!!" mentality where for whatever reason they think Guard are strictly low tech low tactics WWI "wE nEeD aLL tHe CoMmiSsArS!!!" bit.

Never mind that for several years now we've had actual mention of biker scouts that function like the Jackal Alphus does.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Plus they're perpetually stuck in the "Guard can only be one thing!!" mentality where for whatever reason they think Guard are strictly low tech low tactics WWI "wE nEeD aLL tHe CoMmiSsArS!!!" bit.

I guess I just imagined all those lists with VTOL aircraft, self propelled artillery, and IFVs

They're the sort of anachronistic silliness I love about 40K.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Plus they're perpetually stuck in the "Guard can only be one thing!!" mentality where for whatever reason they think Guard are strictly low tech low tactics WWI "wE nEeD aLL tHe CoMmiSsArS!!!" bit.

I guess I just imagined all those lists with VTOL aircraft, self propelled artillery, and IFVs

Kinda feel like you missed the point.

For whatever silly reason, Rough Riders seem to be the de facto go to whenever people discuss things that Guard "need". Not a rework of Veterans to make them a viable unit, not a rework of Conscripts to actually make them feel like Conscripts, just an obsessive need by some people(who usually will shout down anything that they deem "too techy" for Guard I might add) to continually add units that don't really matter or won't really make a difference to the book overall.

 Kanluwen wrote:
For whatever silly reason, Rough Riders seem to be the de facto go to whenever people discuss things that Guard "need". Not a rework of Veterans to make them a viable unit, not a rework of Conscripts to actually make them feel like Conscripts, just an obsessive need by some people(who usually will shout down anything that they deem "too techy" for Guard I might add) to continually add units that don't really matter or won't really make a difference to the book overall.

Probably because rough riders would mean new models, while making conscripts feel like conscripts would mean making them cost 3ppm (and possibly WS/BS 6+). One involves genuinely new content, the other involves minor rules adjustments for balance. Is it really hard to see why people would have more interest in one of them?

Also,

You'll take my life but I'll take yours too
You'll fire your bolter but I'll run you through
#Death Korps

Remind me again what the Conscript kit is?

Oh right. There isn't one. Admittedly the Cadian Shock Troops box can be used as one, but let's stop pretending that Conscripts actually have a kit or can't be made to be different to the point of requiring their own kit.

Why are you desperate to make this thread combative?

It's about the love of bringing a horse to a space-magic-tank battle! No purer love is there!

 Kanluwen wrote:
Remind me again what the Conscript kit is?

Oh right. There isn't one. Admittedly the Cadian Shock Troops box can be used as one, but let's stop pretending that Conscripts actually have a kit or can't be made to be different to the point of requiring their own kit.

Remind me what conscript equipment is? The standard flak armor and lasgun, chosen specifically because it is the standard equipment and conscripts don't get anything special? Remind me what exactly the reason is that conscripts need a new kit?

I want Rough Riders that look like Napoleonic Hussars. They'd be perfect for 40k.

For me it's a mixture of nostalgia and liking the idea of fielding space soldiers on horses with explodey sticks to fight against th3 killer death robots and sentient war fungus

Also they let your converting gland flow free and clear for other ideas to cover the role

I think they are cool as hell. The tallarn rough riders were good looking models but I think most players converted their versions. The concept is good, bravely charging tyranids with a lance speaks of heroism

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Plus they're perpetually stuck in the "Guard can only be one thing!!" mentality where for whatever reason they think Guard are strictly low tech low tactics WWI "wE nEeD aLL tHe CoMmiSsArS!!!" bit.

I guess I just imagined all those lists with VTOL aircraft, self propelled artillery, and IFVs

Kinda feel like you missed the point.

For whatever silly reason, Rough Riders seem to be the de facto go to whenever people discuss things that Guard "need". Not a rework of Veterans to make them a viable unit, not a rework of Conscripts to actually make them feel like Conscripts, just an obsessive need by some people(who usually will shout down anything that they deem "too techy" for Guard I might add) to continually add units that don't really matter or won't really make a difference to the book overall.

Perhaps because the imagery of a cavalry charge is one of the emotive and even tactical highlights of any historical or fictional battle ever.

People want them because cavalry charges are cool, and the juxtaposition of guys on horses in sci fi is also..cool. Just like magic elves in space, or religious inquisitors fighiting undead robots.

Granted, its not a gameplay requirement for the guard to have them, they are "needed" by the players, not the game. But then that goes for plenty of models I'd rather keep too.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Remind me again what the Conscript kit is?

Oh right. There isn't one. Admittedly the Cadian Shock Troops box can be used as one, but let's stop pretending that Conscripts actually have a kit or can't be made to be different to the point of requiring their own kit.

Remind me what conscript equipment is? The standard flak armor and lasgun, chosen specifically because it is the standard equipment and conscripts don't get anything special? Remind me what exactly the reason is that conscripts need a new kit?

Because this is a game of building, painting, and playing. It has many different aspects, and nothing is more beautiful than being able to distinguish every unit with their uniformity. Remind me again why you’re always so negative in almost anything you post on? After all, none of your posts are that different to the point of requiring you to post anymore.

Rough riders do three things that IG really benefit from:
1) counter charge
2) Mobility
3) fill a fast attack slot

IG are actually unique in being the only army that I can think of with no high mobility option outside of vehicles. No jump packs, no bikes, nothing. (yes, with Move Move Move IG infantry are actually ludicrously fast). Also, we have no non-vehicle option as a Fast attack choice. And finally, the only really solid assault unit we have is bullgryn (although tuned up catachans aren't shabby).

As for the anachronistic feel of cavalry... very little of 40k makes sense. Horse cavalry remained viable longer than motorbike mounted troops, after all. We accept things that make no sense, like a chainsaw blade sword combined with a small rocket launching pistol being an effective combination in combat.. Horse cavalry makes as much sense, and in a way cements the idea that the IG are really driven by necessity and reliability.

that all said, if GW would give the IG some more interesting fast attacks, I'd be all over it. I'd love five man squads with combat weapons and specials, mounted in small fast transports.

Teddy Roosevelt

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Because this is a game of building, painting, and playing. It has many different aspects, and nothing is more beautiful than being able to distinguish every unit with their uniformity. Remind me again why you’re always so negative in almost anything you post on? After all, none of your posts are that different to the point of requiring you to post anymore.

"Conscripts fluff-wise are equipped only with basic gear and giving them anything but basic gear from the standard guardsmen kit would be blatantly against the fluff."

"Rough riders are genuine new content and people want them."

WHY U SO NEGATIVEE??!>?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?@??@?!?!?

Perhaps the real question is why you feel compelled to pick out the statements criticizing an idea (and, by implication, stating that GW is doing the right thing) as "negative" and ignore the ones in favor of adding a cool new kit to the IG range? And why you think that zero-content complaining about how "negative" someone is and how much you don't like them is a useful thing to do?

 Peregrine wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Because this is a game of building, painting, and playing. It has many different aspects, and nothing is more beautiful than being able to distinguish every unit with their uniformity. Remind me again why you’re always so negative in almost anything you post on? After all, none of your posts are that different to the point of requiring you to post anymore.

"Conscripts fluff-wise are equipped only with basic gear and giving them anything but basic gear from the standard guardsmen kit would be blatantly against the fluff."

"Rough riders are genuine new content and people want them."

WHY U SO NEGATIVEE??!>?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?@??@?!?!?

Perhaps the real question is why you feel compelled to pick out the statements criticizing an idea (and, by implication, stating that GW is doing the right thing) as "negative" and ignore the ones in favor of adding a cool new kit to the IG range? And why you think that zero-content complaining about how "negative" someone is and how much you don't like them is a useful thing to do?

Those are two very good questions that, if you were to refer to your post history, you’d see apply to you oh so well, old negative one. Every wants new kids. Let them hope and dream and wish that they will potentially get them. No reason to cry and whine about “but, but, they don’t need a kit cause they so simple

I find roughriders open up a ton of modeling possibilities, and I have always played on the modeling side. It's that simple. The idea of horses, not so exciting, but I have imagination. So the idea of guardsmen on giant lizardbeasts, or mamoth Emus, or rhinos, or any other alien type animal that seems cool and deadly. That said, I actually do have roughriders on horses, and roughriders on cold ones, and roughriders on triceratops (small ones) etc. I am working on the giant axebeak birds.

we can tone it down several notches.

ta.

40k is basically medieval fantasy in space and who doesn't love a good cavalry charge? Rough Riders also tap deep into the Guard's WWI roots with the continued use of horse cav which was in many ways obsolete in a war dominated by machine guns, artillery, poison gas, etc (at least on the western front).

Quasistellar wrote:
I'd rather they were replaced with ww2 style German bikers, myself.

Augmented. The word you should be using is augmented, not replaced.

That way those of us who have/prefer horses and those who want bikes all get what we want.

Personally Rough Riders make sense in form as faster infantry basically. But my true love to see a biker version of them similar to orcs and space marines. I mean a squad of bikes firing off pistols and gunning with twinlinked weapons mounted on the front would be cool and having sidecars for heavier weapon use.

Lore wise though horse cavalry are from mostly feral worlds and it's what they know. It's a game of numbers and humanity is one of the top contenders.

nostalgia and modeling/painting opportunities for me, I have the standard DKOK death riders, attilan squad with WHFB Empire pistolier horse swap, discontinued IG special character Mogul Kamir(without official model) made with WHFB Empire engineer on clockwork horse and catachan bits and dark elf lance, tallarn squad with pistolier horse swap, catachan squad riding WHFB old metal cold ones; and I still want more.

It's not really such a fantastical idea, even in 40K. We can acknowledge that 40K is science fiction, but it's not terribly advanced science fiction.

Even today, numerous law enforcement and military organizations use horse-mounted units. Admittedly they're not for charging into enemy positions, but rather used for convenient transport in difficult environments. A horse is reliable, can normally feed off the local terrain, doesn't require gas or spare parts (outside of water), and can carry a ton of weight.

China's military uses large horse-mounted units to patrol their vast border. In one of my former jobs we likewise had horse patrol units which operated in the mountains while dirt bikes and quads were used on the more accessible areas. It's not some crazy "throw back" idea. It's completely feasible to imagine that on distant worlds, in vast new environments, a horse or similar creature would serve the same purpose and offer the same benefits.

Admittedly it's unlikely they'd be charging into combat most of the time. That added bit is definitely the silliness of 40K and that's fine with me. But entire horse-mounted companies of infantry would make sense in a number of instances even in a setting like 40K. Camels, alien creatures, etc.

Game-wise they're cheap, good for outflanking and proving a pest. My buddy runs them and we allow him to use orders (because they're absolutely have access to orders had they made it into the Codex) and we allow him to mount any character of his choosing on a horse for +10 points so he's working on a few officers and commissars to ride with them. It's not some game-breaking thing, but it gives his armour more options and flavour. Equipped with lances, and a couple of plasma or melta guns, the outflanking is pretty effective. It's just another thing we have to be wary of when we know he's got stuff waiting to charge in the backfield and put our artillery under stress.

Here is a picture from our last game where a squadron was able to charge the back of my Fire Prism which was wounded and slow to flee.
They die quick, but they often make up their points just from a turn of plasma fire, and hopefully a successful charge.

Yeah, I think the modelling potential and variety is part of what makes them so appealing. They come from an era where the IG rules allowed a huge amount of variation, and converting was encouraged. As such, they readily fitted into lists built around feral/feudal worlders and the like.

The potential mount variety is also cool- horses, motorbikes, alien beasts etc.

I really hope GW makes a new kit for them, and really loads it up on options so we can go wild with conversions. I'd hope it would be like the GSC neophyte or jackal kits- lots of weapon options. An individual rough rider should have the option to take any combo of laspistol, close combat weapon, hunting lance, and longarm (lasgun/shotgun/special weapon). They should be able to take all 4 if you pay the points too. This would allow for so many modeling opportunities, with different roles too (counter assault, dragoon mobile fire support, cheap objectives grabbers).

It probably won't happen though, which is a shame.

I've been wanting to convert some for years, but the cost is somewhat prohibitive without a dedicated kit.