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Reference: Hyperlogical Strategist (Relevant text only)

"...In addition, if your army is Battle-Forged and your Warlord is on the battlefield, roll a d6 each time you spend a Command Point to use a Stratagem; on a 5+ that Command Point is immediately refunded."

So I guess the question is: how are Command Points spent? Are they spent individually or all at once?

In other words, if I use a Strat that costs 2CPs, do I get to roll for each Command Point spent on the Strat to see if I can refund them both? Do I only roll once to possibly get both back? Can I only possibly refund 1CP total no matter how much the Strat costs?

How does it work?

Thanks in advance!

If you spend 2CP you roll two dice, but you can only get 1CP back, even if you roll two 5+, if the tactical restraint rule is in play.

 p5freak wrote:
If you spend 2CP you roll two dice, but you can only get 1CP back, even if you roll two 5+, if the tactical restraint rule is in play.

Oh! So I can only refund 1CP no matter the cost, but I get multiple chances to refund it? (ie, 2CP gets 2d6, 3CP get 3d6, etc)

 PhaseLord wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
If you spend 2CP you roll two dice, but you can only get 1CP back, even if you roll two 5+, if the tactical restraint rule is in play.

Oh! So I can only refund 1CP no matter the cost, but I get multiple chances to refund it? (ie, 2CP gets 2d6, 3CP get 3d6, etc)

Correct.

Note that Tactical Restraint is a beta rule, though in my experience must people use it. If they don't use it, you could get a Command Point for every roll you make.

Each TIME means it does not care how many CPs you spend, you roll ONCE each TIME you spend any.

Compare to the other variations on this style of rule that say "for each command point spent roll a die".

 Draco765 wrote:
Each TIME means it does not care how many CPs you spend, you roll ONCE each TIME you spend any.

Compare to the other variations on this style of rule that say "for each command point spent roll a die".

I don't understand sorry - it seems like you are saying the same thing? You stated that it "does not care how many CPs you spend" but then the variation says "for each CP spent, roll a die."

Soooo it seems like if its 2CPs, then I roll 2d6; if the tactical restraint is not being used I could get both CPS back, but if it is, I can only get 1CP?

Thanks for your patience!

 PhaseLord wrote:

 Draco765 wrote:
Each TIME means it does not care how many CPs you spend, you roll ONCE each TIME you spend any.

Compare to the other variations on this style of rule that say "for each command point spent roll a die".

I don't understand sorry - it seems like you are saying the same thing? You stated that it "does not care how many CPs you spend" but then the variation says "for each CP spent, roll a die."

Soooo it seems like if its 2CPs, then I roll 2d6; if the tactical restraint is not being used I could get both CPS back, but if it is, I can only get 1CP?

Thanks for your patience!

As I typed, you roll a single die no matter how many CPs you spend.
1cp - 1 die.
2cp - 1 die.
3cp - 1 die.

Tactical restraint (if used) only comes into play if you succeed in that 1 die roll, and then spend CPs later in the turn you do not get to roll again.

Other races, have something similar, but worded differently for example Imp Guard's warlord trait: "roll a D6 for each Command Point you spend to use a Stratagem; on a 5+ that Command Point is immediately refunded."
1cp - 1 die.
2cp - 2 dice.
3cp - 3 dice.

Tactical restraint prevents the 2 and 3 dice rolls from generating more than one command point, and then prevents further generations for that game turn.
Imp Guard also has a Relic that functions like our trait, but only each time an opponent uses a stratagem, which is again, 1 die no matter how many CPs were used.

 Draco765 wrote:


As I typed, you roll a single die no matter how many CPs you spend.

1cp - 1 die.
2cp - 1 die.
3cp - 1 die.

Tactical restraint (if used) only comes into play if you succeed in that 1 die roll, and then spend CPs later in the turn you do not get to roll again.

Gotcha!

So I can only benefit from one successful Hyperlogical Strategist per turn (ie, once on my turn, once on my opponent's turn), but I can attempt it until I succeed at it; right?

Correct, under tactical restraint, if that first single die roll fails, and you spend CP later, you can roll a single die again each time you spend CPs until you gain one CP back for that game round (both player's turns).

Here is the link to the FAQ that added tactical restraint: https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/warhammer_40000_the_big_faq_2_en-2.pdf

 Draco765 wrote:
Correct, under tactical restraint, if that first single die roll fails, and you spend CP later, you can roll a single die again each time you spend CPs until you gain one CP back for that game round (both player's turns).

Here is the link to the FAQ that added tactical restraint: https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/warhammer_40000_the_big_faq_2_en-2.pdf

Hey thanks so much Draco! I really appreciate that! I think I got it now!

Draco has it right here, the Necron version only permits one roll per stratagem used. Compare the wording to that of the Astra Copywritum trait, where it says "for each command point spent".

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Draco has it right here, the Necron version only permits one roll per stratagem used. Compare the wording to that of the Astra Copywritum trait, where it says "for each command point spent".

I have to disagree. If GW means you can only roll one dice per stratagem they write it like that. Like with the BA veritas vitae :

The Veritas Vitae
If your army is Battle-forged and the bearer is on the battlefield, roll a D6 each time you use a Stratagem; on a 5+, you gain a Command Point.

Doesnt matter how many CPs you spend on that stratagem, you only roll one dice. Hyperlogical strategist is one dice per command point, 1CP roll 1 dice, 2CP roll 2 dice, etc.

 p5freak wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Draco has it right here, the Necron version only permits one roll per stratagem used. Compare the wording to that of the Astra Copywritum trait, where it says "for each command point spent".

I have to disagree. If GW means you can only roll one dice per stratagem they write it like that. Like with the BA veritas vitae :

The Veritas Vitae
If your army is Battle-forged and the bearer is on the battlefield, roll a D6 each time you use a Stratagem; on a 5+, you gain a Command Point.

Doesnt matter how many CPs you spend on that stratagem, you only roll one dice. Hyperlogical strategist is one dice per command point, 1CP roll 1 dice, 2CP roll 2 dice, etc.

False due to rules already quoted above. I’ve noticed you like to try and give necrons an edge wherever they can have it due to their lack luster codex, but trust me when I say necrons (being the most boring of 40k armies) doesn’t need edges and is just fine where it’s at. It’s 1 die no matter cp spent. Used otherwise is cheating. OP, do not listen to this guy. Stated above by everyone else is accurate. Thank you for listening and understand factual rules

Hey! We aren't "boring"!

We're enthusiastically challenged...

Unless of course by "boring" you mean "lifeless" and "frustrating" - then yes, I have to agree on a purely factual basis

Grand Strategist
...In addition, if your army is Battle-forged and this Warlord is on the battlefield, roll a D6 for each Command Point you spend to use a Stratagem; on a 5+ that Command Point is immediately refunded.

Hyperlogical Strategist
...In addition, if your army is Battle-forged and your Warlord is on the battlefield, roll a D6 each time you spend a Command Point to use a Strategem; on a 5+ that Command Point is immediately refunded.

Very small difference between the two aside, is it even possible to use HS for a 2CP or 3CP stratagem ? It says each time you spend a command point, but if you spend two command points on a stratagem ? Wouldnt that mean you cant use it ?

 p5freak wrote:

Grand Strategist
...In addition, if your army is Battle-forged and this Warlord is on the battlefield, roll a D6 for each Command Point you spend to use a Stratagem; on a 5+ that Command Point is immediately refunded.

Hyperlogical Strategist
...In addition, if your army is Battle-forged and your Warlord is on the battlefield, roll a D6 each time you spend a Command Point to use a Strategem; on a 5+ that Command Point is immediately refunded.

Very small difference between the two aside, is it even possible to use HS for a 2CP or 3CP stratagem ? It says each time you spend a command point, but if you spend two command points on a stratagem ? Wouldnt that mean you cant use it ?

Yes, it only cares that you spend at least one command point. How many spent is irrelevant.

Hyperlogical Strategist
...In addition, if your army is Battle-forged and your Warlord is on the battlefield, roll a D6 each time you spend a Command Point to use a Strategem; on a 5+ that Command Point is immediately refunded.

Spending 3 CP's gives you three rolls with Hyperlogical Strategist.

If a Strat is 1 CP you have spent a Command Point.

If a Strat is 2 CP you have spent a Command Point two times.

If a Strat is 3 CP you have spent a Command Point three times.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Hyperlogical Strategist
...In addition, if your army is Battle-forged and your Warlord is on the battlefield, roll a D6 each time you spend a Command Point to use a Strategem; on a 5+ that Command Point is immediately refunded.

Spending 3 CP's gives you three rolls with Hyperlogical Strategist.

If a Strat is 1 CP you have spent a Command Point.

If a Strat is 2 CP you have spent a Command Point two times.

If a Strat is 3 CP you have spent a Command Point three times.

Now we are nitpicking in wording and play. Every necron player I’ve played rolls for 1 returnable cp regardless of how many they spent. Let’s not confused what’s already been figured out. I think it’s time to lock this threat before anyone else decides to try and be a rules maker that works at GW and believes they know a correct way no one has ever thought of due to their own reasons..

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Hyperlogical Strategist
...In addition, if your army is Battle-forged and your Warlord is on the battlefield, roll a D6 each time you spend a Command Point to use a Strategem; on a 5+ that Command Point is immediately refunded.

Spending 3 CP's gives you three rolls with Hyperlogical Strategist.

If a Strat is 1 CP you have spent a Command Point.

If a Strat is 2 CP you have spent a Command Point two times.

If a Strat is 3 CP you have spent a Command Point three times.

Now we are nitpicking in wording and play. Every necron player I’ve played rolls for 1 returnable cp regardless of how many they spent. Let’s not confused what’s already been figured out. I think it’s time to lock this threat before anyone else decides to try and be a rules maker that works at GW and believes they know a correct way no one has ever thought of due to their own reasons..

All rules discussions are "nitpicking in wording and play"

This rule just happens to say "roll a D6 each time you spend a Command Point " If you spend 2 CP's you have to roll two dice, because you have spent a CP twice.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Hyperlogical Strategist
...In addition, if your army is Battle-forged and your Warlord is on the battlefield, roll a D6 each time you spend a Command Point to use a Strategem; on a 5+ that Command Point is immediately refunded.

Spending 3 CP's gives you three rolls with Hyperlogical Strategist.

If a Strat is 1 CP you have spent a Command Point.

If a Strat is 2 CP you have spent a Command Point two times.

If a Strat is 3 CP you have spent a Command Point three times.

Now we are nitpicking in wording and play. Every necron player I’ve played rolls for 1 returnable cp regardless of how many they spent. Let’s not confused what’s already been figured out. I think it’s time to lock this threat before anyone else decides to try and be a rules maker that works at GW and believes they know a correct way no one has ever thought of due to their own reasons..

All rules discussions are "nitpicking in wording and play"

This rule just happens to say "roll a D6 each time you spend a Command Point " If you spend 2 CP's you have to roll two dice, because you have spent a CP twice.

I’ll humor you. You can roll two dice, but even if both are 5+ you only can receive 1 cp back

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Now we are nitpicking in wording and play. Every necron player I’ve played rolls for 1 returnable cp regardless of how many they spent. Let’s not confused what’s already been figured out. I think it’s time to lock this threat before anyone else decides to try and be a rules maker that works at GW and believes they know a correct way no one has ever thought of due to their own reasons..

To play devils advocate here, every player I've played also shoots Assault weapons after advancing, despite it being totally wrong. The Necron stratagem clearly states "whenever you spend command points", not "for each command point spent". That is a subtle but important difference. What "most people do" is irrelevant to what the rules say.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Now we are nitpicking in wording and play. Every necron player I’ve played rolls for 1 returnable cp regardless of how many they spent. Let’s not confused what’s already been figured out. I think it’s time to lock this threat before anyone else decides to try and be a rules maker that works at GW and believes they know a correct way no one has ever thought of due to their own reasons..

1) Backseat Moderating

2) To play devils advocate here, every player I've played also shoots Assault weapons after advancing, despite it being totally wrong. The Necron stratagem clearly states "whenever you spend command points", not "for each command point spent". That is a subtle but important difference. What "most people do" is irrelevant to what the rules say.

Backseat moderating? Thread has run its course. Should be locked before you say, I say ensues, as it already is. I guess we can get it locked this way too. Either way, as I stated above (if you.. read it that is? ) roll as many dice as you want. Shoot I’ll let you tell me
Some way the rules allow you to roll 50 dice. On even 50 5+ I’m only letting you get 1cp back per wording of that rule. Congrats I guess?

EDIT: cute that you deleted the first comment, not sure why, but it looks like I captured it in quotes before then anyway

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I’ll humor you. You can roll two dice, but even if both are 5+ you only can receive 1 cp back

If the Tactical Restraint beta rule is in play, sure, but if it is not then the limit does not exist.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Now we are nitpicking in wording and play. Every necron player I’ve played rolls for 1 returnable cp regardless of how many they spent. Let’s not confused what’s already been figured out. I think it’s time to lock this threat before anyone else decides to try and be a rules maker that works at GW and believes they know a correct way no one has ever thought of due to their own reasons..

1) Backseat Moderating

2) To play devils advocate here, every player I've played also shoots Assault weapons after advancing, despite it being totally wrong. The Necron stratagem clearly states "whenever you spend command points", not "for each command point spent". That is a subtle but important difference. What "most people do" is irrelevant to what the rules say.

Backseat moderating? Thread has run its course. Should be locked before you say, I say ensues, as it already is. I guess we can get it locked this way too. Either way, as I stated above (if you.. read it that is? ) roll as many dice as you want. Shoot I’ll let you tell me
Some way the rules allow you to roll 50 dice. On even 50 5+ I’m only letting you get 1cp back per wording of that rule. Congrats I guess?

EDIT: cute that you deleted the first comment, not sure why, but it looks like I captured it in quotes before then anyway

Actually it hasn't run it's course. You might only get one back no matter how many dice you roll, but rolling 3 dice to get the point back is a lot better chance of getting it than rolling one die to get a point back. You haven't given DeathReaper a chance to respond to your last reply to him, so at least give him a chance to say "Context!" before declaring the thread complete.

Actually, DeathReaper doesn't need to rely on context here as he can just use the wording itself. RAW, given your quotation of Hyperlogical Stratagist, "each time you spend a Command Point" would be one roll per command point spent. If they had said "each time you spend command points" (plural) then it would be one roll per item you spend point(s) on using. RAI, I wouldn't be surprised if they meant for it to be one roll per expenditure of CP's, not one per point. That's not what the RAW states, however.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I’ll humor you. You can roll two dice, but even if both are 5+ you only can receive 1 cp back

If the Tactical Restraint beta rule is in play, sure, but if it is not then the limit does not exist.

If it meant multiple, it would say command points. You’re nitpicking words, I’m nitpicking words. Only difference is it’s play one way and not the other.. you may only generate 1 cp back. Everyone know later death reaper will just argue his point to the end, even when wrong
Edit: doctortom, read what I said, the fact it doesn’t stanpluaal works Both ways

Okaaaaay, we're done here.