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One of this year's projects is building a decent/fluffy Steel Brethren (Iron Warriors) army. The core of my force is pretty much settled, but I am looking to add some elite infantry firepower to jump out of my Storm Eagle and contest/hold midfield objectives.

With that task in mind, which do you think would be better suited to the task? Two units of 5 Chosen, or one unit of 5 Terminators?

Both options have an equal number of wounds for roughly the same points cost. Terminators have half the firepower, but are more durable. Two units of Chosen are more vulnerable to AP, but are dealing out 2x the wounds to anything nearby.

Given the rest of my list, my biggest tactical hole is massed firepower/anti-horde. With that in mind, I'm leaning toward the Chosen simply for the increase in volume of shots.

Would love to hear your thoughts.

Wait one week for the Codex mark 2 to come out. you might decide on different units then.

I'll be honest...neither are particularly excellent this edition. Chosen were just dropped in points and thus aren't terrible compared to normal marines (which are really suffering). Terminators are stuck in the no-man's land of 2-wound models who disappear to plasma. They've had some help in cost reduction (not as much as Imperial ones for some reason), and bolter drill...meaning they can hammer stuff with combi-bolters.

Neither are super competitive, so I don't know what type of games you play (I doubt either would be heavily recommended in a tournament).

Terminators just got new miniatures and that's pretty cool if you like the aesthetic. If you do Terminators, they can deepstrike and won't rely on the Storm Eagle which is nice. I do think the best way to run them is combi-bolters and power axes. Best combo for cheap. Everything else just makes them waaaaay too pricey. I made mine up for 2nd edition so in 8th they come in at an eye-watering 280 points, about 240 after the reduction...and that's still way too much, even in a narrative setting! Skip heavy weapons and power fists, etc.

Chosen have a lot of options, and can take almost any weapon combination it seems, so that's pretty slick (a bunch of them with combi-bolters wouldn't be bad, and would be cheap). I only have one squad of chosen and I just built them, haven't even used them yet. Chosen lend themselves well to close combat with the 2 base attacks (still garbage vs. almost any other combat unit in the game) so I feel like you're wasting that a bit if you don't give them some kind of close combat weapons in the unit. I went with...four pistols + power axes, a standard bearer with a chainsword, a melta gun, and a champion with combi-melta. Running renegades I get to charge in and at least swing some power axes after trying to shoot some melta guns.

PS: I'd agree with the above, but don't expect changes to Chosen or Terminators - they've been pretty clear that the old codex is still viable, they're just adding CA points changes and the new Vigilus/Shadowspear units to the book etc. They aren't revisiting the rules for units in the original codex (unless it's been replaced like the Obliterator etc.)

 Elbows wrote:
I'll be honest...neither are particularly excellent this edition. Chosen were just dropped in points and thus aren't terrible compared to normal marines (which are really suffering). Terminators are stuck in the no-man's land of 2-wound models who disappear to plasma. They've had some help in cost reduction (not as much as Imperial ones for some reason), and bolter drill...meaning they can hammer stuff with combi-bolters.

Neither are super competitive, so I don't know what type of games you play (I doubt either would be heavily recommended in a tournament).

Terminators just got new miniatures and that's pretty cool if you like the aesthetic. If you do Terminators, they can deepstrike and won't rely on the Storm Eagle which is nice. I do think the best way to run them is combi-bolters and power axes. Best combo for cheap. Everything else just makes them waaaaay too pricey. I made mine up for 2nd edition so in 8th they come in at an eye-watering 280 points, about 240 after the reduction...and that's still way too much, even in a narrative setting! Skip heavy weapons and power fists, etc.

Chosen have a lot of options, and can take almost any weapon combination it seems, so that's pretty slick (a bunch of them with combi-bolters wouldn't be bad, and would be cheap). I only have one squad of chosen and I just built them, haven't even used them yet. Chosen lend themselves well to close combat with the 2 base attacks (still garbage vs. almost any other combat unit in the game) so I feel like you're wasting that a bit if you don't give them some kind of close combat weapons in the unit. I went with...four pistols + power axes, a standard bearer with a chainsword, a melta gun, and a champion with combi-melta. Running renegades I get to charge in and at least swing some power axes after trying to shoot some melta guns.

PS: I'd agree with the above, but don't expect changes to Chosen or Terminators - they've been pretty clear that the old codex is still viable, they're just adding CA points changes and the new Vigilus/Shadowspear units to the book etc. They aren't revisiting the rules for units in the original codex (unless it's been replaced like the Obliterator etc.)

if terminators get a new kit it stands to reason they might see some new weapon options though. In fact we've seen a terminator with a chain axe thus we can be 100% sure termies are getting new toys

I haven't seen the chain-axe on a Terminator (and none of the weapons in the Terminator picture are new), so that's an exceptionally strong maybe. Regardless that won't change how they work as a unit. If Terminators do get a new datasheet in Vigilus...awesome, but I have my doubts.

It wasn't so much the different wargear, as potentailly there could be new stratagems etc. available for one of the choices, e.g. the new previewed BL ones...?

 Elbows wrote:
I'll be honest...neither are particularly excellent this edition. Chosen were just dropped in points and thus aren't terrible compared to normal marines (which are really suffering). Terminators are stuck in the no-man's land of 2-wound models who disappear to plasma. They've had some help in cost reduction (not as much as Imperial ones for some reason), and bolter drill...meaning they can hammer stuff with combi-bolters.

Neither are super competitive, so I don't know what type of games you play (I doubt either would be heavily recommended in a tournament).

Terminators just got new miniatures and that's pretty cool if you like the aesthetic. If you do Terminators, they can deepstrike and won't rely on the Storm Eagle which is nice. I do think the best way to run them is combi-bolters and power axes. Best combo for cheap. Everything else just makes them waaaaay too pricey. I made mine up for 2nd edition so in 8th they come in at an eye-watering 280 points, about 240 after the reduction...and that's still way too much, even in a narrative setting! Skip heavy weapons and power fists, etc.

Chosen have a lot of options, and can take almost any weapon combination it seems, so that's pretty slick (a bunch of them with combi-bolters wouldn't be bad, and would be cheap). I only have one squad of chosen and I just built them, haven't even used them yet. Chosen lend themselves well to close combat with the 2 base attacks (still garbage vs. almost any other combat unit in the game) so I feel like you're wasting that a bit if you don't give them some kind of close combat weapons in the unit. I went with...four pistols + power axes, a standard bearer with a chainsword, a melta gun, and a champion with combi-melta. Running renegades I get to charge in and at least swing some power axes after trying to shoot some melta guns.

PS: I'd agree with the above, but don't expect changes to Chosen or Terminators - they've been pretty clear that the old codex is still viable, they're just adding CA points changes and the new Vigilus/Shadowspear units to the book etc. They aren't revisiting the rules for units in the original codex (unless it's been replaced like the Obliterator etc.)

I'm not too concerned with competitive options atm. I only play friendlies - not really any tournaments in my area - and if I did look to join a more competitive scene, I'd probably be running my tyranids or genestealer cult. If I did play my Chaos Marines, I know it'd be better to just spam cultists. That aside, fluff and "rule of cool" tend to guide many of my list building decisions. I enjoy the challenge of trying to build a halfway decent list that feels unique and true to the lore (be it official or of my own interpretation).

That said, I have a lot of mechanized big guns in my list already and really just need something to score those midfield objectives while providing some good anti-infantry firepower. That's both what I'm lacking as well as struggling to find in the codex. Chosen seem to be edging out the Terminators. I am curious what other options there might be though. Perhaps something I've overlooked... Obliterators could have been an option, but not at the new points cost of 115ppm. Havocs with heavy bolters maybe?

Mid-field objective holders with anti-infantry...definitely sounds like Chosen with stormbolters to me. But, not sure how long they'd hold up under dedicated fire (in cover would help).

Currently combi-bolters are dirt cheap, at 2 points. You can take four in a squad (not including the champ who could also take one). With the new bolter drill rules, if you're standing still that'd be 4 shots per model at 24". You don't get obnoxiously cheap storm shields like loyalists do...but they might live long enough to get the job done.

At this point, you'd also get double the bodies/firepower over a similar unit of Terminators while covering more ground.

Can your big bird carry dreadnoughts? Helbrutes can be fun and quite cheap depending on load-out. Double-heavy bolters with a power scourge...run the shoot-twice stratagem, etc. However they die awfully quick to a couple of missiles/lascannons.

I say take the Terminators. They are still near invulnerable to small arms, and deploying them with your flyer means they will be more likely to use all their equipment where a teleporting squad will have trouble getting into melee.

Elbows wrote:Mid-field objective holders with anti-infantry...definitely sounds like Chosen with stormbolters to me. But, not sure how long they'd hold up under dedicated fire (in cover would help).

Currently combi-bolters are dirt cheap, at 2 points. You can take four in a squad (not including the champ who could also take one). With the new bolter drill rules, if you're standing still that'd be 4 shots per model at 24". You don't get obnoxiously cheap storm shields like loyalists do...but they might live long enough to get the job done.

At this point, you'd also get double the bodies/firepower over a similar unit of Terminators while covering more ground.

Can your big bird carry dreadnoughts? Helbrutes can be fun and quite cheap depending on load-out. Double-heavy bolters with a power scourge...run the shoot-twice stratagem, etc. However they die awfully quick to a couple of missiles/lascannons.

Unfortunately the storm eagle can't carry Helbrutes, but I have two dreadclaw drop pods for bringing in my Contemptor Dreadnoughts. They can either deepstrike or start on the table. With 15" movement and fly they are pretty fast transports.

Slowroll wrote:I say take the Terminators. They are still near invulnerable to small arms, and deploying them with your flyer means they will be more likely to use all their equipment where a teleporting squad will have trouble getting into melee.

What load out would you give them? I play tested a game with combi-plasma and power mauls - chain fist on the champion. They survived well enough for three rounds against tau (ghost keel and stealth suits mainly), but they also hardly did anything else. I have about 250pts to spend on the unit.

What load out would you give them? I play tested a game with combi-plasma and power mauls - chain fist on the champion. They survived well enough for three rounds against tau (ghost keel and stealth suits mainly), but they also hardly did anything else. I have about 250pts to spend on the unit.

As cheap as possible frankly, i do from time to time field 1-2 5 man squads , all of them equipped with mauls or axes and 1 dude with a reaper autocannon. The new beta rule makes them decent foot sloggers and since i play them as count as "Al" they survive a lot of bullets. Do they decent enough damage, eeeeehhhhhhh, still a rather amusing firemagnet and not to expensive.

(ofcourse the Slaanesh deepstrike Combiplasma shenanigans with cacophony do more damage, but also eat alot more CP then just tanks)

cweg127 wrote:
Terminators have half the firepower, but are more durable. .

Am I missing something here? 10 Chosen vs 5 terminators, but each terminator has 2 bolters held together with gaffa tape, so they both have the same anti-horde firepower.

If we switch over to special weapons Chosen should edge out over terminators as they don't have to worry about the -1 to hit penalty for firing mismatched combi-weapons.

Chosen get more melee attacks, but off the top of my head I can't remember how many good melee weapons they can have.

Four models in each Chosen squad can arm themselves with combi-bolters as well, so the firepower is nearly doubled (depending on choice for the fifth marine in each squad).

 Elbows wrote:
Four models in each Chosen squad can arm themselves with combi-bolters as well, so the firepower is nearly doubled (depending on choice for the fifth marine in each squad).

5* the champion also is allowed.

Yeah I'd just run them with bolters and axes for this role. You've got about double the survivability vs small arms and half the firepower of the combi bolter Chosen, plus much better melee. Naturally on the flip side the right guns will still drop them easily and you might not be able to play around that.

If its not out of flavor with your list, Rubric Marines might be an option with similar survivability, good guns and some melee with the Sorceror.

I think a rhino full of combi-bolter Chosen is actually pretty solid horde clearing by most standards with the beta bolter rule in play. 48 bolter shots (including the rhino) that don't have to get particularly close to the enemy line can do most of the things you need for taking out chaff.

Yep, don't skimp on the double-combi-bolter Rhino...that's 8 shots at 24" as it sits and soaks up fire (or charges first, eating overwatch etc.).

Slowroll wrote:Yeah I'd just run them with bolters and axes for this role. You've got about double the survivability vs small arms and half the firepower of the combi bolter Chosen, plus much better melee. Naturally on the flip side the right guns will still drop them easily and you might not be able to play around that.

If its not out of flavor with your list, Rubric Marines might be an option with similar survivability, good guns and some melee with the Sorceror.

I do have a squad of Plague Marines I bought used on ebay for this role initially, but I'm 50/50 on their performance. They have OK firepower and survivability, but ultimately I'm disappointed with the way their visual aesthetic looks with the rest of the army (I know that doesn't matter gameplay wise, but alas...)

Arachnofiend wrote:I think a rhino full of combi-bolter Chosen is actually pretty solid horde clearing by most standards with the beta bolter rule in play. 48 bolter shots (including the rhino) that don't have to get particularly close to the enemy line can do most of the things you need for taking out chaff.

I don't have points left for the rhino, but the storm eagle they would be riding in can outshoot the rhino anyway. Also have room enough in it to put in whatever HQs I want to buff them.