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Just got round to reading Shroud of Night and I must say its refreshing to read a CSM novel where the legionaries have a strong sense of brotherhood rather than the sarcastic apathy that surrounds so many of the novels. Anyone else think that the lore should bring back more of the brotherhood in CSM? Also what else do you want to see from writers?

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Just got round to reading Shroud of Night and I must say its refreshing to read a CSM novel where the legionaries have a strong sense of brotherhood rather than the sarcastic apathy that surrounds so many of the novels. Anyone else think that the lore should bring back more of the brotherhood in CSM? Also what else do you want to see from writers?

Just finished Blood Pact and the relationship between the chaos Guard elite was well done so get completely what you mean.

There shoud be a good mix - some revel in what they are or are becoming, some hate it and everything. Others are just adapting and finding their way. True belief is an interesting area to explore.

A number of the novels do have a sense of flawed brotherhood (the Thousands Sons ones for isntance) but also worth remembering that they are pawns to dark gods and their minons who often enjoy twisting or punishing such notions.

What I like to read is the in-between of battles.

To me its easy to imagine and envision most of the warhammer factions (fantasy and sci fi) in war; its their bread and butter. What I really like is seeing them outside of battle. Their daily life, how they live, eat, work, sleep, socialise. The gritty elements of their daily struggle that helps build up the minds eye of the world at large. Of the setting and situation.

To me what makes characters more real and more easy to identify and follow is seeing them not just in their element, but outside of it. Seeing how they live and what goes on around them in the world at large.


A neat example is the Emperor Palpatine vs Yoda in Starwars. We see Yoda's home life. We see him in the swamp living away his life alone, a hermit with basic resources and food to hand etc... This makes him far more real when it comes to his Jedi elements.
In contrast the Emperor we only ever see manically laughing and issuing orders in command. We never see him relax in his home quarters; we don't see him eat or drink or "socialise". Because of this he's an easy villain but not as easy to identify with as a character. You can't imagine him easily anywhere but in the command chair.



And just to confirm I've no dislike of battles, battles should be part of the stories. But the downtime, between battles, the buildup to them etc... These are all big things taht should be part of the story! Whilst an extreme example, but look at many of the earlier David Gemmel books - many have huge chunks of story long before the sieges begin and it all goes to war and battles and ruin (if anything he takes it a little too far and then, I feel, often had to rush the endings somewhat as they tend to fast speed up into covering huge chunks of time very quick)

I want another inquisition book along the lines of Ravenor or Eisenhorn, but with new characters. I think it'd be interesting to explore how the reappearance of Bobby G is impacting the politics of the Ordos and some of the decisions they're making.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Overread wrote:
What I like to read is the in-between of battles.

To me its easy to imagine and envision most of the warhammer factions (fantasy and sci fi) in war; its their bread and butter. What I really like is seeing them outside of battle. Their daily life, how they live, eat, work, sleep, socialise. The gritty elements of their daily struggle that helps build up the minds eye of the world at large. Of the setting and situation.

You might like Abnett's Titanicus. A chunk of his character development in that novel is dedicated to describing some of their lives in the society, where they live, what they're obligations are to the government. One of the main characters in the book is a normal person living a worker bee life who gets called up from reserves to fight an invasion. You also get to see what lives are like for some of the other military rank and file. It's not a book completely about the mundane, there's obviously stuff going down that then involves Titans. But I thought this book gave good glimpses into what life in the Imperium is like. Honestly, a lot of Abnett's writing goes into these kind of details. Eisenhorn Magos is full of short stories that develop the normal, everyday life characters inquisitors have to investigate.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Just got round to reading Shroud of Night and I must say its refreshing to read a CSM novel where the legionaries have a strong sense of brotherhood rather than the sarcastic apathy that surrounds so many of the novels. Anyone else think that the lore should bring back more of the brotherhood in CSM? Also what else do you want to see from writers?

Just finished Blood Pact and the relationship between the chaos Guard elite was well done so get completely what you mean.

There shoud be a good mix - some revel in what they are or are becoming, some hate it and everything. Others are just adapting and finding their way. True belief is an interesting area to explore.

A number of the novels do have a sense of flawed brotherhood (the Thousands Sons ones for isntance) but also worth remembering that they are pawns to dark gods and their minons who often enjoy twisting or punishing such notions.

Yeah, I agree as obviously Khorne followers are in the majority not going to give a gak about each other as has been their way as they are just as likely to kill their brothers in the pits, same with most Emperors children but there should always be exceptions to the rules.

Give a reason for Space Wolves thinking their psykers are so much better and tie it into Fenris rather than purely just attitude. Seriously I'm sick of the whining about the hypocrisy.

A halfway readable book that doesn't say Aaron Dembski-Bowden on the front would be a start.

pm713 wrote:
Give a reason for Space Wolves thinking their psykers are so much better and tie it into Fenris rather than purely just attitude. Seriously I'm sick of the whining about the hypocrisy.

There is no hypocrisy, they Emperor knew the wolves still used psykers after Nikaea, which is prudent as the executioners need weapons to kill a legion/primarch that has psyker powers. Malcador knew that Russ was using his psykers in order to get onto the vengeful spirit, he didn't complain. Regardless, everyone broke the council of Nikaea; Guilliman did, as did Sanguinius, the Khan and the Lion.

pm713 wrote:
Give a reason for Space Wolves thinking their psykers are so much better and tie it into Fenris rather than purely just attitude. Seriously I'm sick of the whining about the hypocrisy.

It's not whining to point out that the space wolves ARE Hypocrites!

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Give a reason for Space Wolves thinking their psykers are so much better and tie it into Fenris rather than purely just attitude. Seriously I'm sick of the whining about the hypocrisy.

It's not whining to point out that the space wolves ARE Hypocrites!

Yeah, SW are basically the "exception to the rule" faction amongst loyalist legions/chapters. They get to have their cake and eat it too with their Rune Priests blatantly disregarding the Edict, followed by their harboring of mutants via Wulfen. Then you got their whole schtick of getting away with killing a GK Grandmaster. Contrast this with the Celestial Lions, who basically bad-mouthed the Inquisition and then got progressively assassinated to the point of near extinction. Granted they aren't a first founding chapter, but man SW are a special piece of work.

Outside of that, I'd like to see more perspectives from Orks. Guy Haley's did a great job with the shorts he did with Evil Sun Rising, but having more of a biopic ala his book on Skarsnik would be great. Even following some of the more unconventional Orks like Badrukk or Nazdreg via a human slave POV would be good. The War of the Beast was a wasted opportunity in that regard, since we basically only ever got an Imperial perspective on the whole shebang.

 Grimskul wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Give a reason for Space Wolves thinking their psykers are so much better and tie it into Fenris rather than purely just attitude. Seriously I'm sick of the whining about the hypocrisy.

It's not whining to point out that the space wolves ARE Hypocrites!

Yeah, SW are basically the "exception to the rule" faction amongst loyalist legions/chapters. They get to have their cake and eat it too with their Rune Priests blatantly disregarding the Edict, followed by their harboring of mutants via Wulfen.

But nobody EVER mentions White Scars, Blood Angels, the Emperor, Salamanders or anyone else in these conversations.#

I'm not saying it's whining to say "this faction have a flaw" but I am saying it's whining to repeatedly criticise one faction for one thing while ignoring other factions and/or characters doing the same thing.

Like for example if I said every time Abbadon was mentioned he was a colossal idiot for not using space ships more but never said that about any other character/race then that's me whining.

pm713 wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Give a reason for Space Wolves thinking their psykers are so much better and tie it into Fenris rather than purely just attitude. Seriously I'm sick of the whining about the hypocrisy.

It's not whining to point out that the space wolves ARE Hypocrites!

Yeah, SW are basically the "exception to the rule" faction amongst loyalist legions/chapters. They get to have their cake and eat it too with their Rune Priests blatantly disregarding the Edict, followed by their harboring of mutants via Wulfen.

But nobody EVER mentions White Scars, Blood Angels, the Emperor, Salamanders or anyone else in these conversations.#

I'm not saying it's whining to say "this faction have a flaw" but I am saying it's whining to repeatedly criticise one faction for one thing while ignoring other factions and/or characters doing the same thing.

Like for example if I said every time Abbadon was mentioned he was a colossal idiot for not using space ships more but never said that about any other character/race then that's me whining.

A big part of why people don't complain about the others is because they aren't written like self-righteous asses who think they know better than others. White Scars makes sense because they were the vanguard of the SM Legions, rarely interacting with the larger Crusade, meaning that even if they did use psykers it wasn't brazenly in front of others like the SW did with their Rune Priests (due to their public role as the Emperor's executioners). Furthermore, their spiritual philosophy regarding the warp is about tempered use and why they proposed the Librarius, versus Russ who was on Mortarion's side of outright banning use of psykers in the Legions, hence the hypocrisy. The Blood Angels also make a lot more sense, since Sanguinius was terrified about the Emperor purging his Legion over the Red Thirst and had several cover ups by killing those affected. AFAIK, Russ didn't put down those who succumbed to the Wulfen curse. I don't see how Salamanders are relevant in this discussion?

 Grimskul wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Give a reason for Space Wolves thinking their psykers are so much better and tie it into Fenris rather than purely just attitude. Seriously I'm sick of the whining about the hypocrisy.

It's not whining to point out that the space wolves ARE Hypocrites!

Yeah, SW are basically the "exception to the rule" faction amongst loyalist legions/chapters. They get to have their cake and eat it too with their Rune Priests blatantly disregarding the Edict, followed by their harboring of mutants via Wulfen.

But nobody EVER mentions White Scars, Blood Angels, the Emperor, Salamanders or anyone else in these conversations.#

I'm not saying it's whining to say "this faction have a flaw" but I am saying it's whining to repeatedly criticise one faction for one thing while ignoring other factions and/or characters doing the same thing.

Like for example if I said every time Abbadon was mentioned he was a colossal idiot for not using space ships more but never said that about any other character/race then that's me whining.

A big part of why people don't complain about the others is because they aren't written like self-righteous asses who think they know better than others. White Scars makes sense because they were the vanguard of the SM Legions, rarely interacting with the larger Crusade, meaning that even if they did use psykers it wasn't brazenly in front of others like the SW did with their Rune Priests (due to their public role as the Emperor's executioners). Furthermore, their spiritual philosophy regarding the warp is about tempered use and why they proposed the Librarius, versus Russ who was on Mortarion's side of outright banning use of psykers in the Legions, hence the hypocrisy. The Blood Angels also make a lot more sense, since Sanguinius was terrified about the Emperor purging his Legion over the Red Thirst and had several cover ups by killing those affected. AFAIK, Russ didn't put down those who succumbed to the Wulfen curse. I don't see how Salamanders are relevant in this discussion?

Salamanders are very clearly mutated. They go coal black and get red eyes. I wouldn't call the executioners thing public seeing as at least one group of the Imperial Army nearly went with going alone rather than work with the Wolves a second time.

The tempered use thing doesn't really hold water when Rune Priests constantly talk about how they don't cross certain lines and the entire legion had an emphasis on self control.

Blood Angels are as public with their Thirst and Rage as Wolves are with the Wulfen.

pm713 wrote:

Salamanders are very clearly mutated. They go coal black and get red eyes..

You might want to consider the implications of this argument.

the wolves are targeted for hypocracy claims because they criticize others for having librarians well just screaming "RUNE PREISTS ARE DIFFERANT AND OK!" that's pretty much the literal definition of hypocracy

I do enjoy BL books that are from a non-military perspective (Inquisition, Arbites, Rogue Traders, etc.). I don't want them to stop making military SF, it's just nice to get a different perspective and I find the descriptions of Imperial and alien societies that aren't being bombed right at that moment to be interesting.

 Grimskul wrote:
Outside of that, I'd like to see more perspectives from Orks. Guy Haley's did a great job with the shorts he did with Evil Sun Rising, but having more of a biopic ala his book on Skarsnik would be great. Even following some of the more unconventional Orks like Badrukk or Nazdreg via a human slave POV would be good. The War of the Beast was a wasted opportunity in that regard, since we basically only ever got an Imperial perspective on the whole shebang.

Yeah, I think Guy Haley is the best at writing Orks.

It has been mentioned that The Beast Arises was something of a test run for doing multi-book, multi-author stories. Basically shorter and tighter versions of the Horus Heresy, which makes sense for events that aren't quite as important. They're going to do something similar to TBA with the Seige of Terra.

I hope once the Heresy is concluded they do a lot more short "historical" series like TBA with a campaign book to go along with them. The Age of Apostasy, the Nova Terra Interregnum, The Great Scouring, the Moirae Schism, Badab, the list can go on and on.

pm713 wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Give a reason for Space Wolves thinking their psykers are so much better and tie it into Fenris rather than purely just attitude. Seriously I'm sick of the whining about the hypocrisy.

It's not whining to point out that the space wolves ARE Hypocrites!

Yeah, SW are basically the "exception to the rule" faction amongst loyalist legions/chapters. They get to have their cake and eat it too with their Rune Priests blatantly disregarding the Edict, followed by their harboring of mutants via Wulfen.

But nobody EVER mentions White Scars, Blood Angels, the Emperor, Salamanders or anyone else in these conversations.#

I'm not saying it's whining to say "this faction have a flaw" but I am saying it's whining to repeatedly criticise one faction for one thing while ignoring other factions and/or characters doing the same thing.

Like for example if I said every time Abbadon was mentioned he was a colossal idiot for not using space ships more but never said that about any other character/race then that's me whining.

They even call out the Hypocrisy of the Wolves in universe

There is now a really great range of BL books with a variety of styles from bolter porn to darker, often more thoughtful stories.

More DKoK novels. They're so popular but not many books about them...

40k novels I want

a complete Amberely Vail novel
A sequal to Lord of Night
More Sisters of Silence stories
More Navy fiction.

 Mr Morden wrote:
40k novels I want

A sequal to Lord of Night

Definitely. Still think this is one of the absolute best pieces of 40k fiction ever published.

BrianDavion wrote:
the wolves are targeted for hypocracy claims because they criticize others for having librarians well just screaming "RUNE PREISTS ARE DIFFERANT AND OK!" that's pretty much the literal definition of hypocracy

They actually believe that though and why shouldn't they feel that they can use them, The Emperor or Malcador didn't have a problem with it. No the literal definition would be if they used sorcery and condemned Magnus. Russ had a problem with sorcery, which the Thousand Sons were using.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
the wolves are targeted for hypocracy claims because they criticize others for having librarians well just screaming "RUNE PREISTS ARE DIFFERANT AND OK!" that's pretty much the literal definition of hypocracy

They actually believe that though and why shouldn't they feel that they can use them, The Emperor or Malcador didn't have a problem with it. No the literal definition would be if they used sorcery and condemned Magnus. Russ had a problem with sorcery, which the Thousand Sons were using.

Whether the SW believe it or not doesn't stop it being hypocritical. I think the problem with the portrayal of the SW in the HH so far is that the hypocrisy is never dealt with at all, and rarely fully called out. Russ calls what the Thousand Sons do sorcery, but it's exactly the same thing the Wolf Priests are involved with. You can call it whatever you want, it's all just psykers playing with the warp. I'd argue (as would Magnus) that the TS greater understanding of what they were messing with makes them less dangerous than the SW.

Slipspace wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
the wolves are targeted for hypocracy claims because they criticize others for having librarians well just screaming "RUNE PREISTS ARE DIFFERANT AND OK!" that's pretty much the literal definition of hypocracy

They actually believe that though and why shouldn't they feel that they can use them, The Emperor or Malcador didn't have a problem with it. No the literal definition would be if they used sorcery and condemned Magnus. Russ had a problem with sorcery, which the Thousand Sons were using.

Whether the SW believe it or not doesn't stop it being hypocritical. I think the problem with the portrayal of the SW in the HH so far is that the hypocrisy is never dealt with at all, and rarely fully called out. Russ calls what the Thousand Sons do sorcery, but it's exactly the same thing the Wolf Priests are involved with. You can call it whatever you want, it's all just psykers playing with the warp. I'd argue (as would Magnus) that the TS greater understanding of what they were messing with makes them less dangerous than the SW.

The Wolf priest, don't do sorcery nor do Rune priests, there is a big difference from psykers and sorcery. Its not all just psykers playing with the warp. TS didn't have any idea of what they were doing, they thought their tuteleries were benevolent beings from the warp when they were just daemons. Magnus didn't even know what he was doing, He sold his soul without even knowing it bargaining with Chaos and we all know what he did traveling the webway. Magnus destroyed the Imperiums future ruining the webway project and you say they are less dangerous than the wolves. People blame the Wolves so that they don't have to realise that the TS put their own nails in their coffins.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
The Wolf priest don't do sorcery there is a big difference from psykers and sorcery. Its not all just psykers playing with the warp. TS didn't have any idea of what they were doing, they thought their tuteleries were benevolent beings from the warp when they were just daemons. Magnus didn't even know what he was doing, He sold his soul without even knowing it bargaining with Chaos and we all know what he did traveling the webway. Magnus destroyed the Imperiums future ruining the webway project and you say they are less dangerous than the wolves.

Anything magic is sorcery. Wolf priests get their power from the warp, same as any other psyker.

That being said, I don't mind that in the fluff Space Wolves are hypocrites. They've always been arrogant and always been favored by the God Emperor.

Slipspace wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
the wolves are targeted for hypocracy claims because they criticize others for having librarians well just screaming "RUNE PREISTS ARE DIFFERANT AND OK!" that's pretty much the literal definition of hypocracy

They actually believe that though and why shouldn't they feel that they can use them, The Emperor or Malcador didn't have a problem with it. No the literal definition would be if they used sorcery and condemned Magnus. Russ had a problem with sorcery, which the Thousand Sons were using.

Whether the SW believe it or not doesn't stop it being hypocritical. I think the problem with the portrayal of the SW in the HH so far is that the hypocrisy is never dealt with at all, and rarely fully called out. Russ calls what the Thousand Sons do sorcery, but it's exactly the same thing the Wolf Priests are involved with. You can call it whatever you want, it's all just psykers playing with the warp. I'd argue (as would Magnus) that the TS greater understanding of what they were messing with makes them less dangerous than the SW.

Just going to point out it's Rune Priests who do sorcery/magic/whatever you call it. Wolf Priests are basically apothecary/chaplains. Didn't the 1kSons chill with Demons all the time? And use their powers to the point they turned to Chaos Spawn? And make literal deals with Chaos? Doesn't sound like they know what they're doing.

I would love to see a story from the point of view of a greater daemon, particularly a Lord of Change, as a good writer could really delve into some serious intrigue and interesting plot twists. What would be hella awesome would be to have a novel strictly from the point of view of Kairos Fateweaver, with both heads serving as dual narrators with different ways of interpreting events.

 consul wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
The Wolf priest don't do sorcery there is a big difference from psykers and sorcery. Its not all just psykers playing with the warp. TS didn't have any idea of what they were doing, they thought their tuteleries were benevolent beings from the warp when they were just daemons. Magnus didn't even know what he was doing, He sold his soul without even knowing it bargaining with Chaos and we all know what he did traveling the webway. Magnus destroyed the Imperiums future ruining the webway project and you say they are less dangerous than the wolves.

Anything magic is sorcery. Wolf priests get their power from the warp, same as any other psyker.

That being said, I don't mind that in the fluff Space Wolves are hypocrites. They've always been arrogant and always been favored by the God Emperor.

No its not, sorcery involves making packs with the gods.

They are arrogant but they were right to call out Magnus and the TS, Magnus proved them right in doing so. How can you call the SW's hypocrites and not pretty much every loyal legion that broke the edict of Nikaea. I mean the only one that actually staid true to the edict of Nikaea was funnily enough Mortarion lol If the wolves believed that their power was the same as any other psyker they'd be hypocrites or if there is new lore that specifically states that the Emperor condemned them for continued use of Rune Priests. We know at least that Malcador allowed them to use the Rune Priests when Russ needed them to navigate the Vengeful Spirit.

I'm mean lets be honest, the council of Nikaea was designed to curb Magnus' use of sorcery, the Emperor was wise enough to make it a blanket ban so it would mitigate Magnus feeling like he was being singled out. When he rightfully should have been singled out.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
No its not, sorcery involves making packs with the gods.

Sorcery is any magic gak. Any warp powers are sorcery. Anything that defies the laws of reality to make magic is sorcery.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
They are arrogant but they were right to call out Magnus and the TS, Magnus proved them right in doing so. How can you call the SW's hypocrites and not pretty much every loyal legion that broke the edict of Nikaea. I mean the only one that actually staid true to the edict of Nikaea was funnily enough Mortarion lol

I agree. They're all hypocrites. Space Wolves are especially hypocritical because they were the most vocally opposed to psykers. On the scale of hypocrisy, they're at the top, but all the Legions belong somewhere on the scale.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
If the wolves believed that their power was the same as any other psyker they'd be hypocrites or if there is new lore that specifically states that the Emperor condemned them for continued use of Rune Priests. We know at least that Malcador allowed them to use the Rune Priests when Russ needed them to navigate the Vengeful Spirit.

Ignorance isn't an excuse. If anything, it shows the Space Wolves were even less responsible than the Thousand Sons. The Thousand Sons at least understood their own power. The Space Wolves barely even tried to understand. Imagine using the warp without knowing its the warp. That's like driving on the highway with a blindfold on.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
I'm mean lets be honest, the council of Nikaea was designed to curb Magnus' use of sorcery, the Emperor was wise enough to make it a blanket ban so it would mitigate Magnus feeling like he was being singled out. When he rightfully should have been singled out.

I agree with that. The Council of Nikaea was solely about Magnus. He was the one consorting with daemons; he was the one the Emperor had to focus on. Magnus was a crazy donkey-cave. I don't think any other Legions actually was as insane as the Thousand Sons.

Also, the fluff kind of makes it sound like the Thousand Sons abandoned the Great Crusade. If they spent most of their efforts on Prospero studying the warp, they weren't exactly out there conquering worlds. Honestly they sounded similar to the Word Bearers: both Legions forgot they were soldiers. There was a drift in purpose.

The Space Wolves got a pass for their hypocrisy because they were motivated, effective soldiers, whereas the Thousand Sons were just postmodernist French philosophers chatting in Parisian cafes.

 consul wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
No its not, sorcery involves making packs with the gods.

Sorcery is any magic gak. Any warp powers are sorcery. Anything that defies the laws of reality to make magic is sorcery.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
They are arrogant but they were right to call out Magnus and the TS, Magnus proved them right in doing so. How can you call the SW's hypocrites and not pretty much every loyal legion that broke the edict of Nikaea. I mean the only one that actually staid true to the edict of Nikaea was funnily enough Mortarion lol

I agree. They're all hypocrites. Space Wolves are especially hypocritical because they were the most vocally opposed to psykers. On the scale of hypocrisy, they're at the top, but all the Legions belong somewhere on the scale.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
If the wolves believed that their power was the same as any other psyker they'd be hypocrites or if there is new lore that specifically states that the Emperor condemned them for continued use of Rune Priests. We know at least that Malcador allowed them to use the Rune Priests when Russ needed them to navigate the Vengeful Spirit.

Ignorance isn't an excuse. If anything, it shows the Space Wolves were even less responsible than the Thousand Sons. The Thousand Sons at least understood their own power. The Space Wolves barely even tried to understand. Imagine using the warp without knowing its the warp. That's like driving on the highway with a blindfold on.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
I'm mean lets be honest, the council of Nikaea was designed to curb Magnus' use of sorcery, the Emperor was wise enough to make it a blanket ban so it would mitigate Magnus feeling like he was being singled out. When he rightfully should have been singled out.

I agree with that. The Council of Nikaea was solely about Magnus. He was the one consorting with daemons; he was the one the Emperor had to focus on. Magnus was a crazy donkey-cave. I don't think any other Legions actually was as insane as the Thousand Sons.

Also, the fluff kind of makes it sound like the Thousand Sons abandoned the Great Crusade. If they spent most of their efforts on Prospero studying the warp, they weren't exactly out there conquering worlds. Honestly they sounded similar to the Word Bearers: both Legions forgot they were soldiers. There was a drift in purpose.

The Space Wolves got a pass for their hypocrisy because they were motivated, effective soldiers, whereas the Thousand Sons were just postmodernist French philosophers chatting in Parisian cafes.

Sorcery is not any magic gak. Sorcery is 100% different from using the warp to channel powers. You're completely wrong on that one. Just because both powers come from the warp doesn't make it all the same, sorcerers make pacts with the gods to use their powers.

The definition of sorcery is mostly political as far as I can tell; chaos psykers are sorcerers because they are vile witches who make pacts with dark gods, but our psykers are good and noble librarians. It is a very different thing.