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Mission: 4 Pillars

Knights

Crusader, Avenger Gatling, Rapid Fire Battle Cannon, Ironstorm Missile Pod, Sainted Ion, Ion bulwark

Ultramarines

Lieutenant, Bolter and Power Fist

10 Tactical Marines, Missile Launcher and Plasma Gun
10 Tactical Marines, Missile Launcher and Plasma Gun

7 Assault Marines

Deployment
Marine Player: I won the roll off to select deployment zones and picked the "Southern" one.

Knights Player: I chose to deploy in the centre on the line to maximise my kill potential as I was never going to score more objectives until everything is dead.

Marine Player: I combat squadded my Tactical Squads and hid them so that it was unlikely the Kinght would get LoS on them during the first turn. Only one unit was on an objective, but that's all I need. The units with the Plasma Guns (3 and 4) I deployed hard on the left flank to make a run at Objective 1 and my Assault Squad I deployed in reserve.

Knights Player: I chose to go second as even with a 12" move I wasn't going to be able to draw line of sight to the Tactical Squads.

Turn 1: Space Marines
Marine Player: I stood still and did nothing (effectively skipping my turn).

Turn 1: Knights
Knights Player: I wasn't expecting that. I moved up to be able to charge the squad in the ruin next turn and fired my Ironstom Missile Pod at the unit hiding behind the farm. I rolled 3 shots, hit 3 times and wounded with all 3.

Marine Player: I only passed 2 saves, so my unit is now down to 3!

Score at the end of Battle Round 1

Space Marines: 1
Knights: 0

Turn 2: Space Marines
Marine Player: I moved my unit in the ruin further in (towards the knight) and kept them more than an inch from the wall. I moved the lieutenant behind them. My plasma gun squads I ran forward, one moving 10" and the other 9".

Turn 2: Knights
Knight Player: I moved to be able to try to charge the squad in the ruin and fired my Ironstorm Missiles at the same Tactical Squad as last time. If I can get both I should be able to stop them from scoring this turn. I fired 3 shots at the tacs, but only got one hit.

Marine Player: That converted to a kill though. Just 2 marines left there.

Knight Player: I charged the tactical squad in the ruin getting a 6

Marine Player: And I pointed out I was just outside of an inch of the wall, so the charge failed!

Scores at the end of Battle Round 2

Marines: 2
Knights: 0

Turn 3: Marines
Marine Player: I got a 10" move on my two plasma squads (one of which needed a CP reroll on the advance.) My tiny tactical squad repositioned to make getting LoS on them pretty much impossible and gain Cover. The Lieutenant moved across slightly and the Tac squad in the ruin shifted. My Assault Squad dropped near Objective 2.


Turn 3: Knights
Knight Player: I need to either go after the units on Objective 4 or the ones heading towards Objective 1. I choose to head after the units making a break across open ground. I open up with my RFBC and Avenger on Squad 4, whilst using my Flamer and Stubber on Squad 3 and the Ironstorm on the tiny squad hiding from me. The flamer and stubber fail to do anything. The Ironstorm missiles also fail to kill any! The main guns wipe out Squad 4. I then charge Squad 3, taking 2 damage from Plasma in the process and using my CP reroll to make the charge. My crusader then tap dances on Squad 3, killing them!

Scores at the end of Battle Round 3

Marines: 3
Knights: 1

Turn 4: Marines
Marines: At this point I think I'm doing pretty well and have a real shot at winning this. Taking out those squads was a bit of a catch 22 as now he's horribly out of position to fight anything else, but if he'd left them alone I'd have had a good chance of getting the 3 points for all objectives next turn, which is now off the table. I move my marines to hide as much as possible.

Turn 4: Knights
Knights Player: I realise my opponent has made a mistake and left Objective 3 open, so I move onto it and fire my Ironstorm Missiles at the small squad, killing one more.

Score at the end of Battle Round 4

Marines: 3
Knights: 1

Turn 5: Marines
Marines: That was frustrating, but the game could end at the end of this round, so I could win anyway. I move my assault squad out to Objective 2 to try to cement the victory. I also move my Tactical Marine onto Objective 3, so it needs to be killed.

Turn 5: Knights
Knights: I move to try to take Objective 4 and kill the unit of Objective 3. I fire all my guns that need LoS at the marine on Objective 3 and the Ironstorm missiles at the marines on Objective 4. The ironstorms kill 2, whilst the other marine is wiped out. I then try to charge the remaining marines and Lieutenant, getting a 5, which isn't enough.

Scores at the end of Battle Round 5


Marines: 4
Knights: 2

Turn 6: Marines
Marine Player: Unfotunately the game continued. This is closer than I would like now, I move my lieutenant out to block the Knight, making it so that it cannot move around the side of the ruin to see the tactical squad without coming within 1" of the Lietenant.

Turn 6: Knights
Knight Player: I move as close as I can and kill the lieutenant, whilst shooting the Tactical Squad with my Ironstorm Missiles.

Marine Player: I have to use up a CP reroll on a save, but only 1 dies in addition to the lieutenant.

Knight Player: I charge and tapdance the Marines to death!

Score at the end of Round 6

Marines: 4
Knights: 3

Score at Game End:

Knights: 5 (Warlord and Linebreaker)
Marines: 5 (Linebreaker)

It's a draw everybody!

Did you do any damage to the knight or did you just hide the whole game?

Just hid and moved on objectives. Did 2 wounds in overwatch. Trying to damage the Knight would have been really bad play.

Ok, so you've proved that you can tie a game with a knight in 500 pts, but only if you don't interact at all with the knight?

That doesn't make me think knights are balanced or should be allowed in <1250 pts.

Cool, that's a valid opinion. I was just curious how the game would play, I wasn't really trying to make a point.

I actually found the game very interactive and fun, though the interaction didn't involve shooting the knight, but was more on the tactical level. Positioning units to force the knight to make hard choices was essentially the name of the game and I think I could have won if I hadn't made a mistake that my opponent exploited.

Now I know that kind of game isn't for everyone and a lot of people don't enjoy the more tactical/movement based aspects of 40k (or claim they don't exist), but for me it was fun. If this battle report is something that doesn't look fun to you (and I can see why it wouldn't to some people) then I'd absolutely say you should avoid knights in smaller games.

That said, I think that if I was playing with a better list this would have been an impossible game for the knight player. Even if I'd had a 10 man Assault Marine squad (so I could combat squad it) it would have made the game very hard for my opponent.

I was deliberately playing a list that is the poster child for rubbish lists as proposed by someone else, because Tactical Marines as on the box are really bad units at the moment. There are a lot of 500 point armies that would give the knight fits and are perfectly fluffy.

What kind of 500 point list do you usually run? I'd be happy to try it against a knight with my mate and see how the game plays and if it sucks and report back.

For reference, my 500 point list, which is a good matchup against a Knight is:

Prophets of Flesh

Urien Rakarth

5 Wracks with Ossefactor

2x 5 Mandrakes

2x Talos, Macroscalpels and Haywire

Drager wrote:
Cool, that's a valid opinion. I was just curious how the game would play, I wasn't really trying to make a point.

I actually found the game very interactive and fun, though the interaction didn't involve shooting the knight, but was more on the tactical level. Positioning units to force the knight to make hard choices was essentially the name of the game and I think I could have won if I hadn't made a mistake that my opponent exploited.

Now I know that kind of game isn't for everyone and a lot of people don't enjoy the more tactical/movement based aspects of 40k (or claim they don't exist), but for me it was fun. If this battle report is something that doesn't look fun to you (and I can see why it wouldn't to some people) then I'd absolutely say you should avoid knights in smaller games.

That said, I think that if I was playing with a better list this would have been an impossible game for the knight player. Even if I'd had a 10 man Assault Marine squad (so I could combat squad it) it would have made the game very hard for my opponent.

I was deliberately playing a list that is the poster child for rubbish lists as proposed by someone else, because Tactical Marines as on the box are really bad units at the moment. There are a lot of 500 point armies that would give the knight fits and are perfectly fluffy.

What kind of 500 point list do you usually run? I'd be happy to try it against a knight with my mate and see how the game plays and if it sucks and report back.

For reference, my 500 point list, which is a good matchup against a Knight is:

Prophets of Flesh

Urien Rakarth

5 Wracks with Ossefactor

2x 5 Mandrakes

2x Talos, Macroscalpels and Haywire

I'm not saying those aren't valid parts of the game, but also that a knight without a distinct list-tailoring in a 500 pt game seems like the only option is to never engage and hide, which means you are missing out on 3/4ths of the phases of the game.

I think it really depends on the army you play, my example list interacts with a Knight just fine and isn't tailored against it at all. It's just a strong 500 point TAC list. For some factions and for some lists from all factions hiding and not shooting is the only option, but that's not a bad thing for the odd game.