Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

As we're all keenly aware GW doesn't listen to feedback, nor do they playtest their games enough to know how their own rules suck. But regardless i'll wishfully think about things that will never happen. CSM squads have nothing they're good at currently. Vanilla marines shooting troops are even better at close combat than close combat equipped CSM squads, it's pathetic, but it's also bland.

I think CSM should have something like +1 str on the charge, across the entire army. Any power armor CSM should have this very minor buff. It wouldn't be a huge gain, and in many cases wouldn't change anything depending on the toughness being attacked, but it would at least give them some flavor. Maybe call it "ravenous fury" or something and it represents how even the more ranged oriented chaos like to smash things in the face when they get the chance. You still wouldn't see big blobs of CSM, but hell they might not completely lose out in every possible way to vanilla marines.

I think it would be even better to give the entire army +1 attack on the charge, but that already being a world eaters deal would require that attribute to change (or allow them to stack.)

CSM are quite possible just as bad as grey knights currently, they need something.

I don't play either army but if you just get a tactical squad vs a chaos space marine squad aren't they the exact same excluding sub faction traits? They're just a bit better in melee with death to the false emperor and saying that they're the same tier as GK is extremely hyperbolic.

The problem isn't Chaos Space Marine squads, its Cultists are too good.

I'm not sure turning power armored chaos marines into pseudo Blood Angels is the way to go. For one thing, it kind of homogenizes the whole faction and pidgeon holes them into being melee guys. Something which more restrained members of the AL, IW, freshly-turned renegades, etc. might not appreciate.

I actually kind of like the new, "Take three squads of CSM to get a bunch of extra CP" thing. It helps to bridge the CP generation gap between cultists and marines somewhat, and you end up with a slightly hardier and slightly killier trio of units.

Or you can overhaul all astartes entirely and give them primaris stats.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
The problem isn't Chaos Space Marine squads, its Cultists are too good.

Considering they're now 5 PPM and are slated to lose Legion Traits...

No. CSM suck. Tacticals do too.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
The problem isn't Chaos Space Marine squads, its Cultists are too good.

Mh, not really, also the Corsair battalion with min marines will probably bring atleast 5 man squads into a playable position again.
8 CP for cheap on durable bodies.
That said, DttfE is a bad rule, because not all armies are "Imperium"

You're all right.

CSM Squads are not good (at all) AND Cultists are too good.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
The problem isn't Chaos Space Marine squads, its Cultists are too good.

Adding an amendment to the Bolter Discipline rule changing Heavy Bolters from Heavy to Rapidfire (for Astartes) would be a fun start.
Gives the unit 6 shots if they stay still or get within 18".

Then drop CSM and Tacticals to 11-12ppm. Still not the best, but at least it would push them to be less of a tax

-

I fully agree Heavy bolters should be changed a bit. Making them rapid fire 2 could theoretically work, but would leave the new havocs with a bad feeling. Mabey give them 2 profiles.


Heavy 4 with damage 2 on 6's to wound or rapid fire 2 at normal damage.


This would also buff standard Land raiders a bit (which is good) and Cent devs again.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
I fully agree Heavy bolters should be changed a bit. Making them rapid fire 2 could theoretically work, but would leave the new havocs with a bad feeling. Mabey give them 2 profiles.


Heavy 4 with damage 2 on 6's to wound or rapid fire 2 at normal damage.


This would also buff standard Land raiders a bit (which is good) and Cent devs again.

You know what? Having 2 profiles isn't something I thought about, but could work really well.

Heavy 3 could stay the "standard" mode. Damage 2 on 6+ to wound would also make this mode interesting*
Astartes can then have an added mode that is RF3, which should combine well with Bolter Discipline

This subtle change won't alter the meta, but should give cheap 5-man Tacs & CSM something to do.

*My only gripe with making HBs D:2 is that is takes a bit away from Autocannons. So I think if we want to give something to the Heavy mode of HBs, it needs to be something else

-

Realistically, the only way a Rapid Fire profile works is if we bring back Suspensors as wargear options.

Because otherwise? You need to explain all kinds of weirdness, like why it is that Marines can Rapid Fire when staying still but Guard HWTs with the same setup(if not more ammo!) can't.

I like the exploding 6s option, but a thing to potentially add some difference is that 6s to hit cause a wound--flat. Same as the Bolt Carbines on the Infiltrators.

They don't cause a "mortal wound" so you still get saves, but it makes it so there's a bit of a reason to use it vs autocannons.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Realistically, the only way a Rapid Fire profile works is if we bring back Suspensors as wargear options.

Because otherwise? You need to explain all kinds of weirdness, like why it is that Marines can Rapid Fire when staying still but Guard HWTs with the same setup(if not more ammo!) can't.

I really don't see why. It's the same reason Bolter Marines get Bolter Discipline but Sisters and Custodes don't: Because they're Marines and the other aren't.
In 40K, things makes sense according to the narrative, not because of some misguided notion of "realism". (note that last bit has some sarcasm on it)

And in the case of give HBs a RF mode, it's to give basic Marines a valid cheapish Heavy weapon option.

-

 Galef wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Realistically, the only way a Rapid Fire profile works is if we bring back Suspensors as wargear options.

Because otherwise? You need to explain all kinds of weirdness, like why it is that Marines can Rapid Fire when staying still but Guard HWTs with the same setup(if not more ammo!) can't.

I really don't see why. It's the same reason Bolter Marines get Bolter Discipline but Sisters and Custodes don't: Because they're Marines and the other aren't.

We don't know that Sisters won't get it or a similar rule. They haven't gotten it yet certainly. I don't think they will, personally, but time will tell.

In 40K, things makes sense according to the narrative, not because of some misguided notion of "realism".

But that's exactly what you're arguing for here. The narrative is, effectively, the notion of "realism" present within the game.

Heavy Bolters are described as weapons that can pour shots downrange to suppress an enemy, so why is it that only Marines should get them functioning as such?
This isn't like the Infernus Heavy Bolter which spells out why it behaves differently, it's a weapon common to many factions and vehicles that really is considered a dud across all of them not just Marines.

And in the case of give HBs a RF mode, it's to give basic Marines a valid cheapish Heavy weapon option.
-

Honestly? It feels more, IMO, like you just want to give the Marines a "special" profile. We got that with Deathwatch's special Heavy Bolters.

It really shouldn't seem so controversial that a Suspensor option is far superior to trying to rejig a key "basic" heavy weapon across almost all of the Imperium factions and common in many of the non-Daemon factions for Chaos.

I would have absolutely no issues if ALL Heavy Bolters were RF3, even the Guard ones. But the first time I suggested it, a few people barked at me about how OP that would make HWTs.
So I resolved to specify that only Astartes should get RF HBs, which I feel is justified for the same reason non-Astartes do not yet have Bolter Discipline

But at the end of the day, balance or fluff, RF HB aren't going to "fix" Marines

I just know how awesome it is to have at least 1 "heavy" version of your basic weapon being available to units as a Heavy option that ISN'T Heavy
Specifically, I am referring to Shuriken Cannons, which like the standard infantry gun, keeps it's ASSAULT type, which interacts quite well with Battle Focus.
Shuricannons are one of the 5 "Heavy" weapon options of most platforms

HBs should be this for Marines. A bigger version of the Bolter that retains the Rapid Fire type, but is one of the 5 common "Heavy" options and interacts with Bolter Discipline.
I also think it would be hilarious for Marines to have "Heavy" Bolters that are RF to go with they "Heavy" Flamers that are Assault and "Assault" Cannons that are Heavy.

-

 Galef wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Realistically, the only way a Rapid Fire profile works is if we bring back Suspensors as wargear options.

Because otherwise? You need to explain all kinds of weirdness, like why it is that Marines can Rapid Fire when staying still but Guard HWTs with the same setup(if not more ammo!) can't.

I really don't see why. It's the same reason Bolter Marines get Bolter Discipline but Sisters and Custodes don't: Because they're Marines and the other aren't.
In 40K, things makes sense according to the narrative, not because of some misguided notion of "realism". (note that last bit has some sarcasm on it)

And in the case of give HBs a RF mode, it's to give basic Marines a valid cheapish Heavy weapon option.

-

I'm not opposed to Custodes Bolt weapons gaining a proc rule as well, as they're carrying chonkers of Bolt weapons as well.

Funny anecdote. When bolter discipline was released I played a couple games with it to test. Me and my opponent both felt it was strong and went a long way to fix marines.

Sadly we were playing it as rapid fire AND bolter discipline. So 4 shots each at half range. Really wish that was for real.

dominuschao wrote:
Funny anecdote. When bolter discipline was released I played a couple games with it to test. Me and my opponent both felt it was strong and went a long way to fix marines.

Sadly we were playing it as rapid fire AND bolter discipline. So 4 shots each at half range. Really wish that was for real.

You really want to see Deathwatch bikers running around with eight shots a model?

Fingers cross for Bolter Discipline to get tweaked in the (hopefully soon) forthcoming FAQ.
Not only to reword it so that players don't keep getting confused about it "stacking" with the normal RF rules, but also to give it a bit more punch.
You absolutely should be incentivized to move closer, NOT sit back.

That is why I truly hope GW make the rule into the following:
"Models with RF bolt weapons may add +1 attack if stationary, or if they have any of the following keywords: TERMINATOR, BIKER, VEHICLE or CENTURION."
Note that this additional attack is in addition to the normal RF rules and thus a model in half range will gain double +1atx"

IMO, this would be the ideal Botler Discipline rule as it rewards getting within half range as well as giving more overall shots to regular 1 shot bolters proportionately.

For example: 1 Bolter Marine would get 2 shots if stationary (+100%), or 3 shots if within 12" (+50%)

Stormbolter models, otoh, also only get +1 shot, so the proportion is less.
A DW StormVet would only get 3 shots if stationary (RF2 + 1 shot, so +50%) and would get 5 shots at 12" (double 2, +1 for only +25% increase).

This would help Chaos Marines and Tacticals proportionately more than other models, and arguably, are in the most need.
After that, you could either make HBs RF, or just add them to the Bolter Discipline as an exception.

-

 AnomanderRake wrote:

dominuschao wrote:
Funny anecdote. When bolter discipline was released I played a couple games with it to test. Me and my opponent both felt it was strong and went a long way to fix marines.

Sadly we were playing it as rapid fire AND bolter discipline. So 4 shots each at half range. Really wish that was for real.

You really want to see Deathwatch bikers running around with eight shots a model?

That you for illustrating how OP DW are and the mere existence of their rules threatens to prevent standard marines from ever improving because those changes also affect DW.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

dominuschao wrote:
Funny anecdote. When bolter discipline was released I played a couple games with it to test. Me and my opponent both felt it was strong and went a long way to fix marines.

Sadly we were playing it as rapid fire AND bolter discipline. So 4 shots each at half range. Really wish that was for real.

You really want to see Deathwatch bikers running around with eight shots a model?

That you for illustrating how OP DW are and the mere existence of their rules threatens to prevent standard marines from ever improving because those changes also affect DW.

ANY Biker shouldn't be firing 8 shots anyway. I'm not even sure why you had to bring Deathwatch into this.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

dominuschao wrote:
Funny anecdote. When bolter discipline was released I played a couple games with it to test. Me and my opponent both felt it was strong and went a long way to fix marines.

Sadly we were playing it as rapid fire AND bolter discipline. So 4 shots each at half range. Really wish that was for real.

You really want to see Deathwatch bikers running around with eight shots a model?

That you for illustrating how OP DW are and the mere existence of their rules threatens to prevent standard marines from ever improving because those changes also affect DW.

ANY Biker shouldn't be firing 8 shots anyway. I'm not even sure why you had to bring Deathwatch into this.

I see you've never played against wolfguard bikers armed with stormbolters, 8 shots as standard plus a storm shield.

 WisdomLS wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

dominuschao wrote:
Funny anecdote. When bolter discipline was released I played a couple games with it to test. Me and my opponent both felt it was strong and went a long way to fix marines.

Sadly we were playing it as rapid fire AND bolter discipline. So 4 shots each at half range. Really wish that was for real.

You really want to see Deathwatch bikers running around with eight shots a model?

That you for illustrating how OP DW are and the mere existence of their rules threatens to prevent standard marines from ever improving because those changes also affect DW.

ANY Biker shouldn't be firing 8 shots anyway. I'm not even sure why you had to bring Deathwatch into this.

I see you've never played against wolfguard bikers armed with stormbolters, 8 shots as standard plus a storm shield.

You also pay out the nose for Index units. The Space Marine codex can do the same thing.

I was referring to the basic Biker for 20ish points.

Any fix to Chaos Space Marines Squads also needs to address Tactical Marine Squads, because the contrast between the two is an important statement about how Chaos Space Marines fight vs how Loyalist Marines fight. Are Chaos Space Marines more disordered but more vicious? Do they have a more eclectic array of equipment, but no access to advanced gear? Are Chaos Space Marines just plain worse than Tactical Marines, but gain strange and eldritch benefits from devotion to the Chaos Gods?

At the most basic level, I'd say that Death to the False Emperor shouldn't only trigger on the IMPERIUM keyword. It's a widespread trait that gives an additional 16% close combat attacks to CSM, clearly indicating that they're more melee-focused than regular Marines despite their loss of And They Shall Know No Fear – tying it specifically to a single enemy faction is just bad design, even if it's "fluffy".

After that, you can start looking at how to make both units worthwhile, and what role they're meant to fill in each army.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 WisdomLS wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

dominuschao wrote:
Funny anecdote. When bolter discipline was released I played a couple games with it to test. Me and my opponent both felt it was strong and went a long way to fix marines.

Sadly we were playing it as rapid fire AND bolter discipline. So 4 shots each at half range. Really wish that was for real.

You really want to see Deathwatch bikers running around with eight shots a model?

That you for illustrating how OP DW are and the mere existence of their rules threatens to prevent standard marines from ever improving because those changes also affect DW.

ANY Biker shouldn't be firing 8 shots anyway. I'm not even sure why you had to bring Deathwatch into this.

I see you've never played against wolfguard bikers armed with stormbolters, 8 shots as standard plus a storm shield.

You also pay out the nose for Index units. The Space Marine codex can do the same thing.

I was referring to the basic Biker for 20ish points.

Special Issue Ammo on deathwatch biker firing 8 times can be a bonker. Much stronger than other marines counterpart.