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Lots of SM lists now feature the returned primarch. And yes i know he's a wonderful model and a pretty good character.....but is he really giving so much benefit in a 2000 point army for his cost?

Let's take a look at him:

he's 400 points. that's a whole tonne of points in one character that can be brought down by weight of fire. so he's twice as expensive as Marneus Calgar, the next most expensive HQ (more on Calgar in a bit)

His stats:

M 8" Ws2+ BS 2+ S 6 T6 W9 A6 Ld 10 Sv 2+

Adept of the Codex: Get a command point back on a 5+ after spending one
Armour of Fate: 3+ Inv save and the FIRST time Guilliman is slain roll a D6. On a 4+ he gets up again AT THE END OF THE PHASE (so many people forget this) as close to his previous position as possible with D6 wounds.
Autthor of the Codex: If your army is battlfeforged and Guilliman is Warlord (why wouldn't he???) you gain 3 command points.
Master of Battle: You add 1 to advance and charge rolls for friendly Imperium units within 12" and reroll hit rolls of 1 and failed morale tests for these units.
XIII Primarch: You reroll ANY failed roll to hit and wound for Ultramarine units within 6" of Guiliman.

Weapons:
Hand of Dominion (Melee) x 2 Str AP-3 D 3
Hand of Domnion (Shooting) 24" Rapid Fire S6 AP -1 D2
The Emperor's Sword S+2 AP-4 A3 On a wound roll of 6+ it inflicts D3 mortal wounds in addition to normal damage


So Guiliman is tough but not super tough. Fighty but not super fighty. And really only gives great benefit if you are taking the Ultrasmurfs. The +1 to advance and charge is nice but.........meh. Getting 3 extra command points for battleforged is nice....but you're spending 400 points! that's 133 points a command point!



Now let's compare the supposedly super powerful Primarch to the veteran Marneus Calgar (who I think is going to be making a great show of being the new choice for most people)

Marneus Calgar with the Armour of Heraclus (200 points)

His stats:
M 6" WS 2+ BS 2+ S4 T5 W8 A6 Ld9 Sv2+

So he moves 2" less, has SAME WS and BS skill, is not as strong (he's not a Primarch), is not quite as tough (T5 ain't bad!!) has only ONE LESS WOUND and the SAME amount of attacks as Guilliman! For 200 points less!

Armour of Hercalus: Has a 4+ inv save (meh). In addition: ALL DAMAGE RECEIVED IS HALVED (rounding up) WTF!!
Chapter Master: You can re-roll failed hits for Ultramarine units within 6" of Calgar
Master Tactician: if you army is battleforged and Calgar is your warlord you receive an additional 2 command points

So hang on......the only thing Guilliman really brings for the Ultramarines over Calgar is one extra command point, and reroll wounds. How much is a lieutenant standing next to Calgar? A Primaris lieutenant? 70 odd points?

Weapons:

Gauntlets of Ultramar Melee x2 S (so 8) AP -3 D D3 ok they're not as good as Guiliman but he's 200 points cheaper!!
Gauntlets of Ultamar Shooting 24" Rapid Fire S4 AP-1 D2 Isn't that the same as the Hand of Dominion?


IN CONCLUSION:

If you want a unit that will absolutely positively most definitely be the biggest target on the battlefield and allow your other units to survive a bit longer then go for Guilliman.
If you want a cheaper alternative but still love the boys in blue then Calgar is not far off Guiliman's stats.

And remember you can always spend a few command points for your warlord to be Chapter Master and allow reoll of hits and wounds.

Point of clarity: Being a Chapter Master only gives you reroll hits, not wounds. And doing so costs 3CPs. Why spend 3CPs for that when you could buy Guilly and GET 3 CPs and reroll all Wounds too?

Primarneus Calgar + an LT is not a bad combo and can work pretty well in most games.
But the extra 100+pts to get ALL rerolls, not just 1s and the extra CP is well worth it IMO.

Force multiplication is very hard to "math" because it depends on what unit is benefiting, but assuming you maximize your list for ranged firepower, rerolling all Hits and Wounds almost DOUBLES your output.

So when faced with this choice, I'd recommend asking yourself what you are adding to your list with the "savings" of taking Calgar+LT over Guilliman? Because I struggle to come up with any unit or units for that cost that would make it worth while.

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There's an enormous difference between re-roll 1s to-wound and re-roll all failed wounds. If you build your army with models like dual Stormcannon Leviathans, Guilliman is a must take because he dramatically increases their output and makes them viable threats to Toughness 8 targets. The same logic applies to things like hurricane bolters and twin assault cannons. If you're running lots of lascannons for your anti-tank then obviously Guilliman isn't as necessary.

Calgar doesn’t have the Emperor’s sword. Guilliman can virtually drop a knight on his own with it – easily if he fights twice. That said I haven’t seen Calgard used and he might be decent.

A major downside for Guilliman is that he uses up a LoW slot. So you need at least two other HQs as well as him if you’re bringing a battalion. Calgar doesn’t have this problem.

The fact is that the typical Guilliman list isn’t winning tournaments. The advantages you get from his buffs are somewhat cancelled out by having to bunch up your army, which tends to be a bad plan. Meanwhile your opponent gets an extra reward for every unit they kill, because they kind of take some of Guilliman’s points with them as well.

The effect is that a Guilliman list is a glass cannon. It’s made up of units that hit very hard but aren’t especially tough. If you come up against a Castellan and it goes first you can easily lose two or three of the units that Guilliman is buffing, which radically reduces the point of bringing him. And whoever your other HQs are they probably aren’t contributing much to your shooting phase – with the possible exception of Chronos.

Personally my approach is to save points on HQs. I bring a 92 point Primaris Captain with the fist of vengeance and plasma pistol, and a lieutenant. The bubble is a lot less effective than Guilliman’s but it’s still good enough. It lets me prevent my hellblasters from blowing up, most of the time, which is what I mainly need. The 234 points I save can be spent on more units with guns of their own. I do miss having all rerolls but I’m happy to have more models. A bigger army is more resilient and that's the most important thing.

Mandragola wrote:
Calgar doesn’t have the Emperor’s sword. Guilliman can virtually drop a knight on his own with it – easily if he fights twice. That said I haven’t seen Calgard used and he might be decent.

A major downside for Guilliman is that he uses up a LoW slot. So you need at least two other HQs as well as him if you’re bringing a battalion. Calgar doesn’t have this problem.

The fact is that the typical Guilliman list isn’t winning tournaments. The advantages you get from his buffs are somewhat cancelled out by having to bunch up your army, which tends to be a bad plan. Meanwhile your opponent gets an extra reward for every unit they kill, because they kind of take some of Guilliman’s points with them as well.

The effect is that a Guilliman list is a glass cannon. It’s made up of units that hit very hard but aren’t especially tough. If you come up against a Castellan and it goes first you can easily lose two or three of the units that Guilliman is buffing, which radically reduces the point of bringing him. And whoever your other HQs are they probably aren’t contributing much to your shooting phase – with the possible exception of Chronos.

Personally my approach is to save points on HQs. I bring a 92 point Primaris Captain with the fist of vengeance and plasma pistol, and a lieutenant. The bubble is a lot less effective than Guilliman’s but it’s still good enough. It lets me prevent my hellblasters from blowing up, most of the time, which is what I mainly need. The 234 points I save can be spent on more units with guns of their own. I do miss having all rerolls but I’m happy to have more models. A bigger army is more resilient and that's the most important thing.

I also feel like this hits a very specifc point regarding Calgar v Guilly. If you are already spending heavy points, Guilly is just better. But it you are trying to save points, don't even bother with Calgar and take something even cheaper.

Calgar is a great model and has good rules. But if you are discussing purely from a competitive standpoint, he neither has the force-multiplication of Guilly, nor the points saving over a basic Captain. His "middle-of-the-road-ness" is nice for casual play, but a liability in competitive play, if that makes sense.

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Yeah I think that’s exactly right. Calgar falls between two stools. And he costs about as much as a normal captain to give out buffs plus a smash captain.

As a Crimson Fist player I find myself with a similar question for Kantor. My Primaris captain costs and hits harder (harder than Calgar too) but doesn’t give out anything like the same buffs. I haven’t tried Kantor lately though and he might be worth a go especially as, since Shadowspear enlarged the range, I’m looking to try an all-infantry army.

I really like my fist of vengeance guy. He gives a really solid counterpunch that nothing else in his cost bracket can provide, while also handing out a perfectly good reroll bubble. In business you often hear about using the “minimum viable product” approach, and that’s what this guy gives, in my opinion. If I had Kantor I’d gain rerolls but lose the guy who can pop out and slap a knight around.

Guilliman is just flat out better because of his reroll powers, the beatstick portion is just free bonus. And I say this as someone who has gone out of his way to not buy Guilliman.

Sniper scouts for example are 250% as effective with him than unbuffed.

Hilarious fact : Girlyman, the primarch of the ultramarines cant use his own chapter tactic, because he isnt INFANTRY, nor DREADNOUGHT, nor BIKER. He is a MONSTER I mean the keyword

I still think that's because the UM CT is following the Codex Astartes RAW, and reroll-everything-aura is the CT for following Codex Astartes RAI.

Reroll wounds is extremely strong, much stronger than reroll hits, for Space Marines. Space Marines have a BS of 3+ so rerolling all hits vs rerolling 1's is only an increase of 17%. Re-rolling wounds can have a huge impact if using mass-bolters, or when fishing for 6's on snipers.

He's worth it but you have to take the right units.

Lots of intercessors works good. Repulsors and Levithan dreads. HB and hurricane bolter cents. Absolutely insane damage output.

The issue with Guerilla man is the same with a lot of these character rules. at 2k he is very much worth the points. in the same way a captain and/or lt may be better at a lower points game. force multipliers are difficult to point correctly. I wish GW had goen with the old independant character part to many of these to allow specific buffs to a squad rather than the aura. a reroll to hit and wound aura on say 2 AC/HB predators is half as good as the same aura on 4 AC/HB predators (just an example i know they are not great)

Well in a Knight meta if you know you are fighting knights, then yes he is worth it. He is a melee god against knights.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Well in a Knight meta if you know you are fighting knights, then yes he is worth it. He is a melee god against knights.

Don't forget when he kills that Knight, the Knight will explode putting 6 mortal wounds on him.

If He didn't killed the Knight, the Knight will use "Death Grip" and squish Guilliman dead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think here is the balance, the higher points the game, the more you can potentially get from Guilliman, as you bring more units that can be buffed by him. However, the higher points the game, the Space Marines dies much much faster in the 1st turn, it is not uncommon that more than 1/3 of the Ultramarine army get wiped within a single turn, which in turn lowers the value of Guilliman much much greater.