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Took a 4 year break from 40k.

Are heldrakes still really good?

Oh you poor, poor Chaos Space Marine player.... I have bad news.


So, the Heldrake is currently in the "not so good" territory. Let me break it down;

#1 - The Good
Well, on the positive side, Heldrakes are FAST. Really, really fast. If you aren't getting a charge off with them on turn 1, it's because you didn't want to. Unlike before, Heldrakes aren't limited to flying arcs either, so they can move in whatever direction you please. If you need a unit to just get to spots turn after turn, the Heldrake is a definite option for your list. The Baleflamer is still a fine weapon too; S6, AP -2, and 2 damage means that it still does what it did best; roast Space Marine infantry and bikes.

#2 - The Bad
You probably have more efficient options at just about everything that a Heldrake is good at. If you need something fast that hits on the first move, I'd suggest something that deep strikes and rerolls a charge range, because outside of attacking Flyers in close combat, it is very ineffective at actually hurting things in combat, killing at most 4 models per combat. Alternatively, take Flying Daemon Princes that use Warp-time to double-move, and again, getting into close combat with something very lethal won't be a problem. The Baleflamer is fine against Space Marine infantry, but those are pretty rare to fight against because they're generally pretty bad in this edition anyways. On top of that, losing the template and going to a d6 hits profile hurt the Heldrake more than most; sometimes you'll only get 3 hits, wound with 2, and the Space Marine player passes a 5+ save... and that's just 1 dead Primaris Marine. You can shoot Cultists at a Primaris squad and have better results than that. Worst of all, unlike most Flyers in the game, Heldrakes don't get -1 to being hit any longer, so it's pretty easy to destroy them. Heldrakes, just like all Chaos and Space Marine vehicles, don't get access to Legion Traits. This means they often can't do thing you'd expect them to be able to do, like being -1 to hit from over 12" away.

#3 - The Ugly
Heldrakes just don't do the things you need your units in 8th edition to do, with the exception of "getting there". If you absolutely need a unit to not be able to shoot turn 1 (and it's a unit that won't kill the Heldrake in close combat, won't kill it in Overwatch, and isn't capable of just leaving combat and still be able to shoot like a Flying unit or a Knight), then the Heldrake has a purpose. Otherwise, it's just not survivable or lethal enough to make use of its speed - which you are paying a premium for.

Fine thanks. And you?

On a serious note, they're mid level to bad-ish. They don't really fly any more, they're hovering. Baleflamer is ok though on the expensive side and melee wise the model is weak for its points. It is however very fast moving so there's that.

It's fine, not very competitive though. Good for pickup games or otherwise friendly games.

I use them to tie up units that threaten my Berzerkers ao they arrive safely on my opponents lines.

I had 2 heldrakes, sold one..

they were pretty good in 7th - a well placed template could cover like 10 models, practically wiping them out..

I feel that the flamer should be 2d6 shots (maybe drop it down to 1 wound) because it has no way to deal with large blobs of troops, ie Orks

Yeah the heldrake is in a bizarre and awkward spot where he's a flamethrower unit that is just ABYSMAL at killing lots of infantry...but he's super obnoxiously good at screaming across the table and tying up some kind of artillery unit or tank.

Ive had quite a few games where my opponent had something like a pair of basilisks crammed in a corner with a small unit of IG screening them, and ol' turkey mcgee was able to zip over to them, fry the guardsmen, and pile into the tanks making him super duper obnoxious for my opponent to get rid of.

But most games they just go OH NO ITS A RUBRIC SORCEROR RIDING A PHEONIX MUST KILLLLL and then it is worth it because it soaks up a metric shitton of anti tank fire.

The best way i've used Heldrakes is distraction carnifexes, and now that they're fairly cheap, that's an even better job for them!

That massive move will scare the pants off most opponents, drawing WAY more fire power than they deserve while the actual threats come up the board. Believe me, the Heldrake is too weak offensively to actually get its points back in combat, but what it does make its points back for, is the fact that is VERY hard to kill for its points, and very, very in your face.

Heldrakes are pretty effective against armies that lack screens and use units that can be neutered by being tied up in combat.

Good luck finding a list like that, though.

sadly i am in agreement. They are bad. Points don't grow on trees thats for sure.

one thing not TRULY mentioned here is that heldrakes caaaaan help you against one particular army, but its so expensive to do it... But you can use Heldrakes to not JUST charge turn one, but ALSO form a fence that disallows some of these ridiculously fast forces from escaping to attack the things they are really designed for. It can guarantee that win or lose in those situations, the Heldrakes wount be tied up and will force things like GSC in front of the gun line waiting for them.

I realize fully that this is somewhat lackluster as returns go, but if you have faced the new GSC, you can appreciate that stopping them "way out there" in front of your guns is entirely in your best interests.

So for what its worth there ARE some forces where you could baleflame and then charge all three in, just to form a very large cage from which they cannot easily escape. 3 Heldrakes arent going down easy regardless so even if they kill one and wound another badly, the essence of their job has been completed amd some would argue affordably given the alternative for the rest of your force. No other Chaos unit has that speed so in this regard it has a unique value. 3D6 flamers are not to be totally dismissed either. It's not the best thing since sliced bread but it can at least make the counterattack quite a lot less painful and give those dragons some time to chew.

Back in the day I was playing Ravenwing, the helldrake was a pain in the backside. I am happy I dont have to vs it anymore :p

I play Death guard. I once made a stupid mistake and didn't screen my PBC's turn 1 my opoonents heldrake zoomed over declared against one PBC and managed to assault and tag both in combat. Basically shut down my PBC's for a whole turn and made me fallback so I could shoot the turkey out and I failed meaning that he charged again next turn. A game I could have won became a game I evebtually lost.

The heldrake has changed role from 7th to 8th. A lot of players have difficulty accepting this because it went from being quite dangerous to being a distraction. The best way to use it is to force your opponents with vehicles to screen them or lose their offensive potential. It is really good now at forcing your opponent to make specific deployment choices. The more choices you make your opponent have to make the more chances they might make a bad one.

It is no longer effective though or dangerous but it has its uses for applying board pressure and helping to clear screens which is valuable to help make space for your now almost obligatory obliterator drops

It's pretty awful.
I feel it should have at least one attack that can do d6 damage to simulate it actually grabbing something whilst it's other attacks are just raking and 2 damage.
Chaos really need a decent flyer, we have a few forgeworld options but our standard choice isn't good at the mo.

 Yarium wrote:

Heldrakes just don't do the things you need your units in 8th edition to do, with the exception of "getting there". If you absolutely need a unit to not be able to shoot turn 1 (and it's a unit that won't kill the Heldrake in close combat, won't kill it in Overwatch, and isn't capable of just leaving combat and still be able to shoot like a Flying unit or a Knight), then the Heldrake has a purpose. Otherwise, it's just not survivable or lethal enough to make use of its speed - which you are paying a premium for.

Add to that "isn't chaff protected enough to make charging impossible". Helldrake has speed yes. Still needs room to place model to get to combat though. And can't move over enemy models in assault phase.

It's a board control option.

zerosignal wrote:
It's a board control option.

Exactly! No more no less! If you use it well it can be awesome! Its no longer a point and shoot unit.

There might be some new utility with it once the new ablaze hotness is fully available. Lord discordant buffs etc but don't hold out hope.

zerosignal wrote:
It's a board control option.

Also great for roasting Primaris. I can never really justify it though.

It pays the same base cost as the defiler who has claws and battle cannon included and two more wounds. And then (ugh) the heldrake has to pay for it's crap claws! I know it can fly, but that isn't worth that many points for some a pillow fisted model.

If you could get it for 140 with claws and flamer it'd probably be more popular.

My problem with the Heldrake (and it's not unique in this regard, just a large offender of it) is that a gigantic, imposing centerpiece of a model that costs a fair bit of $$ shouldn't be so toothless in terms of battlefield role. Even now, it's not terrible on the board, just always disappointing. Then you look at the number of points you paid for it and you're more like "eh, I guess it did okay considering", but it doesn't feel rewarding at all that your big metal dragon made its mark in the game from a bad touch with a pair of basilisks (in which it failed to degrade them). I'd much rather take the 6/7e Heldrake as a template, tack a bunch of added points onto it to make it more balanced, but keep it as something that is terrifying rather than misleading.

Other offenders of this:
-Defiler (hell, most daemon engines pre-Lord Discordant)
-Most of the Tyranid monstrous creatures you hear nothing about now (Mawloc, Haruspex, Toxicrene, Maleceptor, Tyranid flyers)
-Probably the big Ork constructs (I'm not an expert there)

If you're paying a real life cost tag of $70 or more, GW should assure the model in question actually does something. The Heldrake is okay at its job as pest, but that's not a fair job for a model like that.

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
My problem with the Heldrake (and it's not unique in this regard, just a large offender of it) is that a gigantic, imposing centerpiece of a model that costs a fair bit of $$ shouldn't be so toothless in terms of battlefield role. Even now, it's not terrible on the board, just always disappointing. Then you look at the number of points you paid for it and you're more like "eh, I guess it did okay considering", but it doesn't feel rewarding at all that your big metal dragon made its mark in the game from a bad touch with a pair of basilisks (in which it failed to degrade them). I'd much rather take the 6/7e Heldrake as a template, tack a bunch of added points onto it to make it more balanced, but keep it as something that is terrifying rather than misleading.

Other offenders of this:
-Defiler (hell, most daemon engines pre-Lord Discordant)
-Most of the Tyranid monstrous creatures you hear nothing about now (Mawloc, Haruspex, Toxicrene, Maleceptor, Tyranid flyers)
-Probably the big Ork constructs (I'm not an expert there)

If you're paying a real life cost tag of $70 or more, GW should assure the model in question actually does something. The Heldrake is okay at its job as pest, but that's not a fair job for a model like that.

on the ork constructs the stompa is probably the worst waste of points in the game, the gorkanaught is nto great and the morkanaught is... almsot of, it does have a 5++ aura which is why it sees play sometimes.

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
My problem with the Heldrake (and it's not unique in this regard, just a large offender of it) is that a gigantic, imposing centerpiece of a model that costs a fair bit of $$ shouldn't be so toothless in terms of battlefield role.

What do you mean expensive? It is only $14 US more expensive than a box of one of CSM Troop choices.

But seriously, I am happy CSM are getting an update, but ouch, those prices. I don't know if I will ever completely phase out my old CSMs. I do agree with you in part. It took a while, and a good 20% off, before I finally got a Heldrake, and I really like the model and have always accepted flyers in 28mm games for the simple reason of I think they aircraft are cool and most games make cool looking flyer models(space marine flying bricks not withstanding). Part of me thinks it would be nice if the heldrake was scarier, but at the same time, that probably means it gets removed from the table that much faster too.

The one time I used mine, I felt like I was doing something wrong with it. It appears that I distraction carnifex-ed myself--and didn't use it role correctly. I probably should put it into my army more often sinc I could use its ability to tie up bit heavy hitters when I can, and because I think it looks cool. Maybe if I use it enough, I can find a way to make it work with what I have.

zerosignal wrote:
It's a board control option.

It's such a big model that the way things work are the other way around, though. It doesn't matter how fast the heldrake is, if your opponent has sufficient chaff then they get to decide where the heldrake goes, not you.

Heldrakes may not be the most effective units at the moment. But they sure do have looks that kill, so i dont know, its a win in that aspect lol.