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I'm going to speak strictly about the chaos side, someone else can discuss the primaris side if they choose.
I'm not seeing much to entice me with this set outside of actual cool factor. Maybe the character models? Otherwise, the venomcrawler is nothing special, marines are still marines, oblits now too expensive.
Hard to make me pull the trigger on the set. I guess I'll wait until I read Vigilus to see which direction I want my chaos to go.

 bullyboy wrote:
I'm going to speak strictly about the chaos side, someone else can discuss the primaris side if they choose.
I'm not seeing much to entice me with this set outside of actual cool factor. Maybe the character models? Otherwise, the venomcrawler is nothing special, marines are still marines, oblits now too expensive.
Hard to make me pull the trigger on the set. I guess I'll wait until I read Vigilus to see which direction I want my chaos to go.

The new Oblits seem pretty great, even at their ShadowSpear price. Venomcrawler is yet to be seen because we need to see how things play out with the new synergies from the MoP and Lord Discordant. And Marines are still marines, but now they can take chain cannons and give bonus CP (but you're probably better off with just getting the multi-part kit instead.)

I like the new Primaris models they look amazing. I unfortunately not had a chance to see their rules or points but it is true that with as bad as all Marines are right now they will likely see very little competitive use.

 bullyboy wrote:
I'm going to speak strictly about the chaos side, someone else can discuss the primaris side if they choose.
I'm not seeing much to entice me with this set outside of actual cool factor. Maybe the character models? Otherwise, the venomcrawler is nothing special, marines are still marines, oblits now too expensive.
Hard to make me pull the trigger on the set. I guess I'll wait until I read Vigilus to see which direction I want my chaos to go.

I'm pretty pumped to get CSM on the table. Of course it's more to do with models outside of Shadowspear, but the 10 CSM in the box are solid and it gives you more greater possessed than you'll probably ever use. Jury is out on oblits for the moment. VCs I like with the Discordant. I have 3 VCs ready to roll for when he pops up.

Theres plenty in the box that's appealing. The real killer is the 175 dollar price tag when everyone was thinking it would be 160. Talking to several store owners, they're all stunned at how poorly the box has sold.

The venomcrawler and master of possessions are pretty neat. The chaos marines arent very exciting because many people have it in their head that they suck. The obliterators are nice but I think a lot of people are waiting for them to get a full kit.

drbored wrote:
The obliterators are nice but I think a lot of people are waiting for them to get a full kit.

I'm a big fan of mutilators. I'm wondering if they've changed in any way, too, or if GW just left them in bizzare spot / cut them out.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

drbored wrote:
The obliterators are nice but I think a lot of people are waiting for them to get a full kit.

I'm a big fan of mutilators. I'm wondering if they've changed in any way, too, or if GW just left them in bizzare spot / cut them out.

Apparently they haven't been changed, but if they had changed them in a similar fasion, they would have made them +1 wound, +1T, 5 base attacks, +d3 str/-d3ap/D3damage in melee and given them 3 shot pistols at str6, -1AP, 2dmg. They would be 90pts each.

They revealed the regular csm kit too soon. If the only way to get the new marines was the box it would've gone over better. I've had a renewed interest in chaos and 40k in general but finally settled on DG instead because of the models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
GW revealing they aren't getting a revamp just a slap on bandage really didn't help either.

The new obliterators are a conditional buff, but the box comes with two, and you need 3 to get the most out of them. 2 is less cost effective than Oldblitz, but 3 or 1 is more.

The Venomcrawler is pretty middling, and the Greater Possessed are too limited in their buffs for their cost.

The Master of Possession's power tree seems decent enough. It's limited in targets, but overall wider than the Obscuration tree. It's obviously built around dinosaurs and obliterators, but if you have those in your list [which applies to almost all of the Chaos players I know], then it's at least going to see value.

On the Space Marine side:
Infiltrators are for the most part worse scouts, but it's kind of a cost issue. For equivalent cost, they have half the firepower, +1 armor, and the same number of attacks and wounds, plus the 12" denial bubble. In addition, they only fill one troop slot instead of 2 at that cost. They really should have bee like 1.5x the cost of Scouts, or even less.

Suppressor are odd, because they're flying heavy weapons who don't ignore the move penalty. They're supposed to be a sidegrade, but Devastators have more heavy weapons and the option for more warm bodies [at increased cost though], and more importantly good weapons and stategem support. Suppressors don't have enough bullets to take on infantry, and don't have scary enough bullets to take on tanks. They're excellent primaris-killers, though.

Eliminators are at least better than their alternative. They can actually kill something and they're cheap. Though you should definitely ask yourself how many snipers your list actually needs, and would a Vindicare be better.

The characters' potential is largely unrealized, because they have crappy weapons but cost a lot. A Phobos Captain with a Thunderhammer would be pretty good, a Phobos Captain with a pointy stick is not.

The power tree is incredibly limited in targets, and has powers that would be good if they didn't only affect phobos units. There are a couple interesting powers, but they're for the most part worse versions of existing powers. That said, another -1 to hit, even if weaker than the other 3 versions, isn't to be neccessarily turned down.




That said, I'm really happy with my half of the set. The models look really nice, and I've had no trouble wolfifying them. My only momentary question is what I'm going to do with the grenade guy, since I don't like his pose or the modelled-on smoke. I made the Helix Adept into another Sergeant, and I don't really want to model my non-sergeants [in these unit] with chainswords to keep them distinct.

The MoP might see some play, the newblits are imo too expensive for a fire and forget unit, but i belive there are ways to run them.
Your average CSM, well in combination with the red corsair traits might see play as a CP battery and carrier of rotor cannons.

The Possessed++ are nice - they are huge beatsticks with quite a punch. However the new Executioner challenges them at that role and at the same price point. Basically between those two it's a question of resistance Vs raw power and Elite Vs HQ. Their buffing is meh, but could be fun next to Daemon Engines with Strength-dependant weapons.

MoP - a nice discipline, but not that huge a fan of it. I might take it if I go Daemon heavy, but the units he boosts are pretty meh on their own, so...

NewOblits - 115 points? That's bad. Yeah, if you get good rolls on the random stats you can with VotlW and EC kill a knight in a turn! However they cost as much as a Knight Gallant who can do the same thing without spending 3cp (and I'd argue that once you take in the probability of rolling that well on the stats has better odds) and is way tougher. Also, if you roll gak on one of the three rolls - 1/9 odds to roll and reroll a 1 on 1d3 - then the unit just wasted its points.

Venomcrawler - one of the better Daemon Engines actually. However WS and BS 4+ sucks.

I've already had a game with a proxied pair of Discordants, a MoP, 2 Dark Apostles (these guys are amazing, basically auto-include for chaos now), and 3 venomcrawlers as the core of my army. As expected, 2d3 S10 (greater possessed + a herald) -2 damd3 shots hitting on 3+ rerolling 1's is brutal. Good rolls on my part brought a Crusader to bottom bracket turn1. Discordants hit like trucks in melee. Dark Apostles are silly good at buffing units, and make big bricks of CSM less of a liability.

Only thing I didn't use out of the box were oblits, which thanks to the stacking buffs you can get on crawlers are a bad investment of points. Rerolling a single d3 for an extra shot or two is so much better than chumping rolls on newblits. Daemon Engines are very good now, and with moderate investment can be a very scary core of CSM. Plus, the Brazen Beasts strat finished off some TH/SS terminators for me so I like that already.

Last thing, once again on Brazen Beasts. 20CSM with chainswords with the +1wound prayer are kind of silly. Killed a squad of I think 8 intercessors on the charge with plenty of overkill. I'm betting with an Exalted Champion giving wound rerolls that unit could kill a knight fairly reliably. How they'd get there intact is another story. Then again, base CSM are crap so not many people will prioritize them, untill their Gallant/Crusader/Castellan melts to a flurry of chainswords.

StarHunter25 wrote:
I've already had a game with a proxied pair of Discordants, a MoP, 2 Dark Apostles (these guys are amazing, basically auto-include for chaos now), and 3 venomcrawlers as the core of my army. As expected, 2d3 S10 (greater possessed + a herald) -2 damd3 shots hitting on 3+ rerolling 1's is brutal. Good rolls on my part brought a Crusader to bottom bracket turn1. Discordants hit like trucks in melee. Dark Apostles are silly good at buffing units, and make big bricks of CSM less of a liability.

Only thing I didn't use out of the box were oblits, which thanks to the stacking buffs you can get on crawlers are a bad investment of points. Rerolling a single d3 for an extra shot or two is so much better than chumping rolls on newblits. Daemon Engines are very good now, and with moderate investment can be a very scary core of CSM. Plus, the Brazen Beasts strat finished off some TH/SS terminators for me so I like that already.

Last thing, once again on Brazen Beasts. 20CSM with chainswords with the +1wound prayer are kind of silly. Killed a squad of I think 8 intercessors on the charge with plenty of overkill. I'm betting with an Exalted Champion giving wound rerolls that unit could kill a knight fairly reliably. How they'd get there intact is another story. Then again, base CSM are crap so not many people will prioritize them, untill their Gallant/Crusader/Castellan melts to a flurry of chainswords.

Are you sure the greater possessed aura reads as cumulative strength bonus?

Agreed on CSM. Running a couple blocks of 20 as Corsairs is hugely tempting with the regen strat.

The above is the exact reason why allowing multiple sources of +1 to wound to stack are a silly idea, it rewards using the wrong weapons over the right weapons more.

Like 8th edition needs more reasons why just throwing buckets of dice is just more effective than actually having to use the correct weapon for the job.

If GW is going to insist on giving ways to stack +1 to wound they neex to rework the to wound chart or embrace a d10+ for such a rule.

Wounding a tank on the same roll with a chainsword instead of a thunderhammer is broken.

God I'd love a D10 system!

Ice_can wrote:
The above is the exact reason why allowing multiple sources of +1 to wound to stack are a silly idea, it rewards using the wrong weapons over the right weapons more.

Like 8th edition needs more reasons why just throwing buckets of dice is just more effective than actually having to use the correct weapon for the job.

If GW is going to insist on giving ways to stack +1 to wound they neex to rework the to wound chart or embrace a d10+ for such a rule.

Wounding a tank on the same roll with a chainsword instead of a thunderhammer is broken.

It's not that simple. If you want regenerating CSM you have no access to VotLW. If you want VotLW you won't be getting the bonus 3 CP (aside from an additional detachment).

Additionally, the stacking occurs in melee only, which requires no small effort to achieve.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
The above is the exact reason why allowing multiple sources of +1 to wound to stack are a silly idea, it rewards using the wrong weapons over the right weapons more.

Like 8th edition needs more reasons why just throwing buckets of dice is just more effective than actually having to use the correct weapon for the job.

If GW is going to insist on giving ways to stack +1 to wound they neex to rework the to wound chart or embrace a d10+ for such a rule.

Wounding a tank on the same roll with a chainsword instead of a thunderhammer is broken.

It's not that simple. If you want regenerating CSM you have no access to VotLW. If you want VotLW you won't be getting the bonus 3 CP (aside from an additional detachment).

Additionally, the stacking occurs in melee only, which requires no small effort to achieve.

I'm not complaining about the combo, specifically it's the design decisions GW keep making that rewards using generalist weapons and strategum, buff stacking over actually having the right weapons.

Why spend all those points on 20 chosen with thunderhammers/power fists when you can just stack strategums and buffs as appropriate to the opposition and achieve the same or better results, for less points and more flexibility.

It's the bad design ideas much like the stacking minus to hit mess they designed. They keep letting oh this is cool override considering the impact of their pet ideas on the over all game mechanics.

+1 on a d12 is half as impacting as on a D6, but 40k 8e is stuck in D6 hell.

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
God I'd love a D10 system!

Doesn't it just make the spread larger and just make everything more random?

The thing about the Venomcrawler is that it’s a Legion Daemon Engine with weapons that are +base strength, that can be buffed by the MoP, Lord Discord, Greater Possessed, etc.

Karol wrote:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
God I'd love a D10 system!

Doesn't it just make the spread larger and just make everything more random?

It would make things more granular. You could show differences in units better without making things as dramatically changed. A +1 to a roll would have less impact and could be more flexible in general.

The Primaris easily "won" in this box as far as quality units. I do heavily suspect the Chaos bespoke units were priced before CA18, etc. and will be adjusted down in CA19 or possibly sooner.

Stat-wise there's no reason for a Venomcrawler to be as expensive as it is, and I think the Obliterators will end up around 80-90 points because they're not 115 point models (when a Helbrute can be had for less...)

drbored wrote:
Theres plenty in the box that's appealing. The real killer is the 175 dollar price tag when everyone was thinking it would be 160. Talking to several store owners, they're all stunned at how poorly the box has sold.

No kidding. Hopefully this is a good wake up call to GW that they've reached the ceiling for what they can charge for these army boxes.

If it had been priced around the DI box I can see it selling much more successfully.

Annocedotal sure, sadly for as many shops that didn't sell Shadowspear I can see double that number being sold. The wider GW community are like Apple fans, they will buy anything no matter what it is.

I think a genuine issue is the internet vs. local store problem which has been around for a while. People will eat a small discount to buy locally at a store they enjoy supporting...but as the price goes up, so too does the actual discount/etc. So it begins to ask more and more of the consumer. $15 may not seem like a ton, but the higher it goes, the more attractive buying online (often with 15% discount, free shipping, potential additional discounts) becomes.

Personally while I can afford to buy GW kits at MSRP, I don't. I don't find their products are worth the money they're asking. I make due waiting for random sales, eBay sales, discounts etc., or sourcing parted out kits from starter boxes, etc. As the price goes up, more people will likely lean toward buying just their one half instead of a full box to split.

GW has had some phenomenally priced stuff in the past, particularly the HH boxed games. However, they were so decent they called into question every other product they produce...and GW doesn't seem to realize that. I'm not seeing the level of quality in the latest boxes as I was back then.

Having tried the Venomcrawler recently, I think it stands up fairly good to a Maulerfiend with Lasher Tendrils. (They cost about the same, 132 vs 130 pts.)

Yes the fiend has +2W and more lash-attacks - but the ranged attacks from the Venomcrawler are actually pretty decent. It averages 2 battlecannon hits, which is nothing to scoff at, and it's ability to regenerate wounds in combat is neat. The summoning-part is a massive gimmick however, and I hope that it doesn't pay anything for it.

Should it be cheaper than a Maulerfiend though? Sure...possibly...maybe. But not much,

I've seen some state that it should be around 100 points, which is just crazy, as it would instantly render both the Helbrute and the Maulerfiend obsolete.

In my opinion, the entire Phobos line is a step in the wrong direction. I haven't bought reivers. I don't like the models here either. The helms on the infiltrators are ok but I hate the legs and small shoulders. I'm just not tempted despite having a primaris only force.

One of the big problems is that GW seems to want to make all SM armies low models, high cost. Which is fine, but you have to make those ELITE armies. This is not that. This is they slapped a new coat of paint on scouts, and doubled the cost. Then they made Dev's airborne, and doubled the cost. It's Elite costs, elite unit sizes, with ork stats. It basically assumes you are ONLY going to face off against other elite armies. Oh wait, my opponent brought 15 jet bikes to the party or 150 guardsmen? Well, I's right boofed boys.

That being said, who is the intended opponent in RPS terms? Custodes? Grey Knights? What is the Elite heavy army that these guys are supposed to tackle?

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
On the Space Marine side:

Suppressor are odd, because they're flying heavy weapons who don't ignore the move penalty. They're supposed to be a sidegrade, but Devastators have more heavy weapons and the option for more warm bodies [at increased cost though], and more importantly good weapons and stategem support. Suppressors don't have enough bullets to take on infantry, and don't have scary enough bullets to take on tanks. They're excellent primaris-killers, though.

The characters' potential is largely unrealized, because they have crappy weapons but cost a lot. A Phobos Captain with a Thunderhammer would be pretty good, a Phobos Captain with a pointy stick is not.

The power tree is incredibly limited in targets, and has powers that would be good if they didn't only affect phobos units. There are a couple interesting powers, but they're for the most part worse versions of existing powers. That said, another -1 to hit, even if weaker than the other 3 versions, isn't to be neccessarily turned down.

One of the powers on that tree slows enemy units, that's worth something. The one actually exciting thing for characters is the new Warlord trait for Phobos characters, being able to grant a unti +1 to hit is meaningful and it's not limited to Phobos units like most of the powers.

On Suppressors, getting Autocannons at all is kind of a big deal for SMs and an AC with Ap 2 is a darn near perfect gun for the current meta. Yes I'd like it on a cheaper platform, but I'm happy to see it period.