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So had a game over the weekend, my Deathwatch+ vs. Chaos Word Bearers.

Turn 2, I dropped two Jump Captains and my Eversor into his backfield where he had a squad of 10 cultists on an objective I needed for a VP. Long story short - My Eversor shot, killed 3 models, then charged. I succeeded, and then in the fight phase I killed 5 models. So he removes 5 models and declares the fight phase over. I said, no, he gets Killing Rampage. His response was that there are no models within melee range, as he removed the ones closest.

I couldn't find out if Sequencing occurs here, and he's right, my abilities only trigger AFTER he removes models. The wording on the ability states "after a model is slain..." this means removed, or before it's removed? His then argument was if it's before, I can't target anything anyway because everything within an inch is dead.

I state that Killing Rampage applies to the unit, not the models, but he remains unconvinced. In any event my jump captains took out the remainder of the squad and all was well, but it irked me I couldn't make a clear argument for Killing Rampage.

Help?

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So had a game over the weekend, my Deathwatch+ vs. Chaos Word Bearers.

Turn 2, I dropped two Jump Captains and my Eversor into his backfield where he had a squad of 10 cultists on an objective I needed for a VP. Long story short - My Eversor shot, killed 3 models, then charged. I succeeded, and then in the fight phase I killed 5 models. So he removes 5 models and declares the fight phase over. I said, no, he gets Killing Rampage. His response was that there are no models within melee range, as he removed the ones closest.

I couldn't find out if Sequencing occurs here, and he's right, my abilities only trigger AFTER he removes models. The wording on the ability states "after a model is slain..." this means removed, or before it's removed? His then argument was if it's before, I can't target anything anyway because everything within an inch is dead.

I state that Killing Rampage applies to the unit, not the models, but he remains unconvinced. In any event my jump captains took out the remainder of the squad and all was well, but it irked me I couldn't make a clear argument for Killing Rampage.

Help?

A model is slain when it is actually removed from the tabletop. Since you have to roll for your saves individually, you get to make your additional attack every time a model is slain, not after you've slain all the models wounded by your attacks. You cannot fast roll saves. In any case, the rule says that you can make an additional attack against the same unit. You Choose Targets (and check "range") in step 3 of the Fight Phase. By the time you're actually slaying enemy models, you're long past that stage and it doesn't matter if you're no longer within "range", because you already chose that unit as a target. It's the same as for shooting.

This is true only because the Eversor is a unit onto itself. In your example, if you activate the Eversor first, then kill so many models that even after piling in (because they charged that turn) the Smash Captains couldn't get to within 1" of an enemy, then the Smash Captain cannot attack because he is not within 1" of an enemy to target them in step 3 of the Fight Phase.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So had a game over the weekend, my Deathwatch+ vs. Chaos Word Bearers.

Turn 2, I dropped two Jump Captains and my Eversor into his backfield where he had a squad of 10 cultists on an objective I needed for a VP. Long story short - My Eversor shot, killed 3 models, then charged. I succeeded, and then in the fight phase I killed 5 models. So he removes 5 models and declares the fight phase over. I said, no, he gets Killing Rampage. His response was that there are no models within melee range, as he removed the ones closest.

I couldn't find out if Sequencing occurs here, and he's right, my abilities only trigger AFTER he removes models. The wording on the ability states "after a model is slain..." this means removed, or before it's removed? His then argument was if it's before, I can't target anything anyway because everything within an inch is dead.

I state that Killing Rampage applies to the unit, not the models, but he remains unconvinced. In any event my jump captains took out the remainder of the squad and all was well, but it irked me I couldn't make a clear argument for Killing Rampage.

Help?

A model is slain when it is actually removed from the tabletop. Since you have to roll for your saves individually, you get to make your additional attack every time a model is slain, not after you've slain all the models wounded by your attacks. You cannot fast roll saves. In any case, the rule says that you can make an additional attack against the same unit. You Choose Targets (and check "range") in step 3 of the Fight Phase. By the time you're actually slaying enemy models, you're long past that stage and it doesn't matter if you're no longer within "range", because you already chose that unit as a target. It's the same as for shooting.

This is true only because the Eversor is a unit onto itself. In your example, if you activate the Eversor first, then kill so many models that even after piling in (because they charged that turn) the Smash Captains couldn't get to within 1" of an enemy, then the Smash Captain cannot attack because he is not within 1" of an enemy to target them in step 3 of the Fight Phase.

I am sorry, I don't believe I indicated the captains did it that turn. But in any event, can you please tell me where the "slain/removed" is so I can point it out as justification?

Also, you can totally fast roll saves. I stab your guy 6 times, 4 stabs hit, two successfully wounded. Roll two die. If those both fail I killed two models, and get two more attacks. Fast rolling. There is no advantage or disadvantage to fast rolling saves this way. The only disadvantage comes when the player begins removing models BEFORE all attacks are resolved.

Which is the origin of my concern. I can't find out where slain is before removal.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Also, you can totally fast roll saves.

Not according to the rules. From 'Fast Dice Rolling', page 179 of the Main Rulebook:

If this is the case, make all of the hit rolls at the same time, then all of the wound rolls. Your opponent can then allocate the wounds one at a time, making the saving throws and suffering damage each time as appropriate.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Also, you can totally fast roll saves.

No, you cannot. Please read the Fast Dice Rolling sidebar on page 179 of the BRB.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
But in any event, can you please tell me where the "slain/removed" is so I can point it out as justification?

BRB Page 181, Shooting Phase, Step 4. Resolve Attacks, Sub-Step 5. Inflict Damage, Sentence 3.

So you can't answer my original question? Where is it stated that models are slain, actions happen, models then removed?

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So you can't answer my original question? Where is it stated that models are slain, actions happen, models then removed?

You will not find anything in the base rules that says "models are slain, actions happen, models then removed" because the rules on the datasheets for any given unit can sometimes disrupt the base rules.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So you can't answer my original question? Where is it stated that models are slain, actions happen, models then removed?

You will not find anything in the base rules that says "models are slain, actions happen, models then removed" because the rules on the datasheets for any given unit can sometimes disrupt the base rules.

Agreed. It's a fundamental part of how the game functions. If an event in the game triggers a rule, you immediately resolve that rule interrupting what you are doing, unless that rule has other specifications about timing.

Additionally fast rolling only exists to speed up the game, it is not the default. The default is that attacks are made and resolved one by one.