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Hi, I have returned to 40k after a tenish year hiatus and so far I am a bit confused!

Ok, I do have the new Chaos Codex (on my iPad which has updated to mkII). Deamons... they are summonable;

1/ do they always need to be summoned to the battle, or like terminators can they start already 'arrived'?

2/ for the inclusion in the army are they counted as Troop choices (i.e. 2 HQ and 2 Troops min (I presume that is the new norm)?

The reason I ask number 2 is I use this thing called BattleScribe and they have completely confused me by saying they are not, but they have the troop marker in on the 'data' sheet. and even if I set them up as a new 'mini' detachment it says invalid because I have to include a HQ. I just want the CSM to summon them!

Thank you well in advance.

LT

Right, this is a common issue for new players.

Summoned Daemons are NOT part of your army when putting your list together. You simply reserve some points, then in the game when you make the summon roll you decide what to use those points on based on how you rolled. As such you don't have decide what units you are summoning until the moment you summon them.

This also means that summoned Daemons do not help you fill up detachments, because they don't exist yet when constructing your army.

Yes, you can take Daemons and start them on the battlefield, but if you do you need to take them normally NOT using summoning rules at all. If you do this then they cannot share a detachment with Chaos Space Marines due to the battle brothers rule, and even if you could you would lose you Legion Traits.

Ah ok, thank you, so because I only have 10 Bloodletters I only have to put aside about 70 points?

Okay, if I wish to place them on the field at the start best create a new detachment with 1 HQ and single Troops. Right got you!

LT

 Stux wrote:
Yes, you can take Daemons and start them on the battlefield, but if you do you need to take them normally NOT using summoning rules at all. If you do this then they cannot share a detachment with Chaos Space Marines due to the battle brothers rule, and even if you could you would lose you Legion Traits.

Picking up on one point....

Can Daemons and "Chaos Space Marines" share a detachment through the Chaos God faction Keyword? Yes you'd lose the Legion Trait but that might not always matter.

Right now I'm a mono-codex Death Guard player but I'm considering what else I can do. Through the Death Guard Codex I know that I can put my Death Guard Units and at the least the Deamons in the Death Guard Codex into a faction together as they have the Nurgle faction keyword in common. So Typhus could lead a battalion with three units of Plaguebearers. Typhus doesn't benefit from the Death Guard Legion Traits so he doesn't miss losing them.

Can that be extended to other units in the CSM or Daemon Codexes? Does "Mark of <Nurgle>" give the faction keyword "Nurgle"?

 Uther wrote:

 Stux wrote:
Yes, you can take Daemons and start them on the battlefield, but if you do you need to take them normally NOT using summoning rules at all. If you do this then they cannot share a detachment with Chaos Space Marines due to the battle brothers rule, and even if you could you would lose you Legion Traits.

Picking up on one point....

Can Daemons and "Chaos Space Marines" share a detachment through the Chaos God faction Keyword? Yes you'd lose the Legion Trait but that might not always matter.

Right now I'm a mono-codex Death Guard player but I'm considering what else I can do. Through the Death Guard Codex I know that I can put my Death Guard Units and at the least the Deamons in the Death Guard Codex into a faction together as they have the Nurgle faction keyword in common. So Typhus could lead a battalion with three units of Plaguebearers. Typhus doesn't benefit from the Death Guard Legion Traits so he doesn't miss losing them.

Can that be extended to other units in the CSM or Daemon Codexes? Does "Mark of <Nurgle>" give the faction keyword "Nurgle"?

Designers Commentary makes this not possible. RaW it is possible.

Yeah, I decided not to get into all of that intentionally as I felt it would complicate matters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tzargotha wrote:
Ah ok, thank you, so because I only have 10 Bloodletters I only have to put aside about 70 points?

Okay, if I wish to place them on the field at the start best create a new detachment with 1 HQ and single Troops. Right got you!

LT

Yes, though if you can stretch to 2 HQ and 3 Troops then Daemons can be a good way to fairly cheaply get some more CP.

 Uther wrote:

 Stux wrote:
Yes, you can take Daemons and start them on the battlefield, but if you do you need to take them normally NOT using summoning rules at all. If you do this then they cannot share a detachment with Chaos Space Marines due to the battle brothers rule, and even if you could you would lose you Legion Traits.

Picking up on one point....

Can Daemons and "Chaos Space Marines" share a detachment through the Chaos God faction Keyword? Yes you'd lose the Legion Trait but that might not always matter.

Right now I'm a mono-codex Death Guard player but I'm considering what else I can do. Through the Death Guard Codex I know that I can put my Death Guard Units and at the least the Deamons in the Death Guard Codex into a faction together as they have the Nurgle faction keyword in common. So Typhus could lead a battalion with three units of Plaguebearers. Typhus doesn't benefit from the Death Guard Legion Traits so he doesn't miss losing them.

Can that be extended to other units in the CSM or Daemon Codexes? Does "Mark of <Nurgle>" give the faction keyword "Nurgle"?

Yes, this is absolutely legal and intentional.
To do this is battlescribe, add a daemon codex entry within your chaos space marine detachment. Now you can select the daemons you want , but make sure all units share a mark as just the chaos keyword is not legal for matched play.

Just note that mixed detachments will not get a faction benefits, such as obsec and legion traits & daemonic locus. They will also not unlock stratagems for the codex (but can use them if unlocked by another detachment) .

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Uther wrote:

 Stux wrote:
Yes, you can take Daemons and start them on the battlefield, but if you do you need to take them normally NOT using summoning rules at all. If you do this then they cannot share a detachment with Chaos Space Marines due to the battle brothers rule, and even if you could you would lose you Legion Traits.

Picking up on one point....

Can Daemons and "Chaos Space Marines" share a detachment through the Chaos God faction Keyword? Yes you'd lose the Legion Trait but that might not always matter.

Right now I'm a mono-codex Death Guard player but I'm considering what else I can do. Through the Death Guard Codex I know that I can put my Death Guard Units and at the least the Deamons in the Death Guard Codex into a faction together as they have the Nurgle faction keyword in common. So Typhus could lead a battalion with three units of Plaguebearers. Typhus doesn't benefit from the Death Guard Legion Traits so he doesn't miss losing them.

Can that be extended to other units in the CSM or Daemon Codexes? Does "Mark of <Nurgle>" give the faction keyword "Nurgle"?

Designers Commentary makes this not possible. RaW it is possible.

Firstly, the Designer's Commentary is official errata and as such is RAW.

Secondly, it does not forbid using NURGLE as the unifying keyword, with Typhus, Plaguebearers and Nurgle-marked Obliterators hanging out in the same detachment. The Designer's Commentary only forbids making up your own keywords to get around army restrictions and does not discuss picking keywords from pre-defined lists in that context.

So you're quite correct in saying that RAW this is allowed. You're just mistaken in thinking the Designer's Commentary changes that.

This is the reason I didn't want to bring up this can of worms!

I think we can direct people to the old thread here, no need to have the debate again.

Aelyn wrote:
Firstly, the Designer's Commentary is official errata and as such is RAW.

Secondly, it does not forbid using NURGLE as the unifying keyword, with Typhus, Plaguebearers and Nurgle-marked Obliterators hanging out in the same detachment. The Designer's Commentary only forbids making up your own keywords to get around army restrictions and does not discuss picking keywords from pre-defined lists in that context.

So you're quite correct in saying that RAW this is allowed. You're just mistaken in thinking the Designer's Commentary changes that.

By definition FAQs are not Rules As Written, unless it's an actual errata that changes what the written rules say.

Like Stux said, this has been debated in full before and should be left at that.

Not a rule answer but since you are coming back and have some daemons.

Daemons have their own codex with heir own stratagems and special rules. If you can do it with models / points etc then it's probably a much better idea to simple take a daemons detachment using the daemons codex alongside a chaos space marines detachment.

e.g.
chaos lord, sorcerer
3 units of marines
+whatever

daemon prince, herald
3 units of blood letters.
+ whatever

Then you can can use all the nice daemon stratagems and loci rules on top of the CSM ones

That being said, if all he has are literally 10 Bloodletter models, then the easiest thing to do is summon them.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
That being said, if all he has are literally 10 Bloodletter models, then the easiest thing to do is summon them.

Agreed. It's not worth 1 CP for an auxiliary detachment and another 1 CP to deep strike them.

 Stux wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
That being said, if all he has are literally 10 Bloodletter models, then the easiest thing to do is summon them.

Agreed. It's not worth 1 CP for an auxiliary detachment and another 1 CP to deep strike them.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe Aux Detachments even unlock the Codex strats.

Meaning, if taken in an Aux, he CAN'T deepstrike them.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
That being said, if all he has are literally 10 Bloodletter models, then the easiest thing to do is summon them.

Agreed. It's not worth 1 CP for an auxiliary detachment and another 1 CP to deep strike them.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe Aux Detachments even unlock the Codex strats.

Meaning, if taken in an Aux, he CAN'T deepstrike them.

Quite right. But even if you could it wouldn't be worth it.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
By definition FAQs are not Rules As Written...

Incorrect. by GW's Definition FAQ's ARE Rules As Written.

Removed - BrookM

FAQs and Errata hold the same weight as the rules, whatever you pedantically try and call them.

But that’s all irrelevant to the thread topic.

OK, trying to draw my question to some kind of conclusion....

With my Death Guard I could build a blended detachment with Typhus leading an Outrider detachment of three units of Plague Toads from the Daemons Codex, they all have the "Nurgle" faction keyword so it's all good.

But trying to make a blended detachment with Typhus leading three Bikers from the CSM Codex with the Mark of Nurgle is questionable. I should find the other epic thread and prepare myself for a world of pain.

Does that sum it up? Or are both questions as arguable and complicated? In which case I'll have to roll my sleeves up and dive into the other thread and I'll darken the door of this thread no more.

Its not questionable in your example at all because:

Typus shares the 'heretic astates' keyword with the chaos space marines bikes so you are not linking on 'chaos' as per matched play restriction you are linking on 'heretic astartes'

 Uther wrote:
OK, trying to draw my question to some kind of conclusion....

With my Death Guard I could build a blended detachment with Typhus leading an Outrider detachment of three units of Plague Toads from the Daemons Codex, they all have the "Nurgle" faction keyword so it's all good.

But trying to make a blended detachment with Typhus leading three Bikers from the CSM Codex with the Mark of Nurgle is questionable. I should find the other epic thread and prepare myself for a world of pain.

Does that sum it up? Or are both questions as arguable and complicated? In which case I'll have to roll my sleeves up and dive into the other thread and I'll darken the door of this thread no more.

The only interaction that doesn't work is Mark of nurgle/khorne etc with nurgle/khorne daemons. And remegade and heratics are on their own. You coild have a detachment with Ahriman, Typhus and Kharn the betrayer or, Typhus, Epididimus and a Poxbringer. But not, Typhus, Mark of Nurgle CSM sorcerer and Epididimus.

 small_gods wrote:
The only interaction that doesn't work is Mark of nurgle/khorne etc with nurgle/khorne daemons. And remegade and heratics are on their own. You coild have a detachment with Ahriman, Typhus and Kharn the betrayer or, Typhus, Epididimus and a Poxbringer. But not, Typhus, Mark of Nurgle CSM sorcerer and Epididimus.

Can you please quote rules explaining why this is the case?

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 small_gods wrote:
The only interaction that doesn't work is Mark of nurgle/khorne etc with nurgle/khorne daemons. And remegade and heratics are on their own. You coild have a detachment with Ahriman, Typhus and Kharn the betrayer or, Typhus, Epididimus and a Poxbringer. But not, Typhus, Mark of Nurgle CSM sorcerer and Epididimus.

Can you please quote rules explaining why this is the case?

Apparently I can't, seems I've missread the designer's commentary with non alligned heratic astartes characters like fabius bile and huron blackheart!