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Are psychic powers that have an aura effect considered aura abilities? I'm thinking specifically of the Flawless Cloak from Vigilus ablaze. If I were to give it to, say, a master of possession, would that increase the range of Cursed Earth and Infernal Power to 9" each considering they are both auras and the Flawless Cloak says nothing about having the ability or the ability appearing on the data sheet?

Raulengrin wrote:
Are psychic powers that have an aura effect considered aura abilities? I'm thinking specifically of the Flawless Cloak from Vigilus ablaze. If I were to give it to, say, a master of possession, would that increase the range of Cursed Earth and Infernal Power to 9" each considering they are both auras and the Flawless Cloak says nothing about having the ability or the ability appearing on the data sheet?

It comes down to what your definition of "Ability" is. This argument has been had before and boils down to two interpretations.

1) The term "abilities" in the Aura Abilities sidebar is a generic descriptor, and thus apply to any rules or effects that have a range.
2) The term "abilities" in the Aura Abilities sidebar specifically references the "Abilities" section of a units Datasheet.

Both interpretations are correct for specific values of the truth. GW has offered no guidance (and probably never will), so you have to define it yourself pre-game with your opponent.

A psychic power is a psychic power, not an ability. Abilities are listed on your units datasheet.

 p5freak wrote:
A psychic power is a psychic power, not an ability. Abilities are listed on your units datasheet.

And there is one of the possible readings.

 Stux wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
A psychic power is a psychic power, not an ability. Abilities are listed on your units datasheet.

And there is one of the possible readings.

I would like to see a rule citation for the other interpretation. Where does it say that the term "abilities" in the aura abilities sidebar is a generic descriptor for everything that has a range ? If thats true the cloak would extend the range of my guns, it would extend the range of my melee weapons, now i could make melee attacks from 4", i could heroic intervene 6", which, of course, is utter nonsense.

 p5freak wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
A psychic power is a psychic power, not an ability. Abilities are listed on your units datasheet.

And there is one of the possible readings.

I would like to see a rule citation for the other interpretation. Where does it say that the term "abilities" in the aura abilities sidebar is a generic descriptor for everything that has a range ? If thats true the cloak would extend the range of my guns, it would extend the range of my melee weapons, now i could make melee attacks from 4", i could heroic intervene 6", which, of course, is utter nonsense.

It's the same rules citation you'll find as to what a "roll" is, or that a six sided dice is numbered 1 through 6.

And what about the Dark Apostle prayers? Ie the 5++ bubble. Is that an ability? Does that also get extended?

In my games I would probably accept it. It's thematic and it fits. If the presence of a chaos lord invigorating his army can be augmented with the cloak, why can't the presence of a MoP invigorating the daemon engines do the same?

The rules text for Saga of Majesty (can be seen in Space Wolf FAQ) strongly indicated that auras granted by psychic powers are indeed aura abilities. So, given the vague definition of Auras the answer is yes, the range can be extended.

JakeSiren wrote:
The rules text for Saga of Majesty (can be seen in Space Wolf FAQ) strongly indicated that auras granted by psychic powers are indeed aura abilities. So, given the vague definition of Auras the answer is yes, the range can be extended.

Page 138 – Saga of MajestyChange the last sentence to read:‘In addition, if your Warlord is a Character, increase the range of any aura abilities they have by 3" (e.g. the Great Wolf and Jarl of Fenris), excluding Explodes, Healing Balms, Battlesmith, this Warlord Trait, abilities of Relics of the Fang and effects of psychic powers.

So because it's denied with saga it works here that it's not specifically ruled out reasoning?

tneva82 wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:
The rules text for Saga of Majesty (can be seen in Space Wolf FAQ) strongly indicated that auras granted by psychic powers are indeed aura abilities. So, given the vague definition of Auras the answer is yes, the range can be extended.

Page 138 – Saga of MajestyChange the last sentence to read:‘In addition, if your Warlord is a Character, increase the range of any aura abilities they have by 3" (e.g. the Great Wolf and Jarl of Fenris), excluding Explodes, Healing Balms, Battlesmith, this Warlord Trait, abilities of Relics of the Fang and effects of psychic powers.

So because it's denied with saga it works here that it's not specifically ruled out reasoning?

Basically yes.

By definition Aura abilities "[are] abilities that affect certain models within a given range". There are psychic powers that meet this definition. Saga of Majesty confirms that they can meet this definition - if they did not then there would be no need to mention them as being excluded.

Since the Flawless Cloak has the same base inclusion (the models aura abilities), but doesn't have the same exclusions (psychic powers), it therefore stands to reason that the cloak affects psychic aura abilities.

As mentioned previously, 'abilities' could be referring to those rules found under the 'Abilities' section of a unit's datasheet.

 Ghaz wrote:
As mentioned previously, 'abilities' could be referring to those rules found under the 'Abilities' section of a unit's datasheet.

Yes. We also have a rule where "aura abilities" is assumed to include psychic aura's and needs to be explicitly called out as not being affected. Ergo, the default assumption is that aura abilities include psychic aura's if a character has one.

JakeSiren wrote:
... assumed...

And that's a problem as well.

 Ghaz wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:
... assumed...

And that's a problem as well.

How so?

BCB pointed out two interpretations of the aura abilities rule. Only one of them makes sense in context of Saga of Majesty, otherwise the Saga has incorrect text. Ergo, the interpretation that includes Psychic aura's in aura abilities is the correct one.

JakeSiren wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:
... assumed...

And that's a problem as well.

How so?

BCB pointed out two interpretations of the aura abilities rule. Only one of them makes sense in context of Saga of Majesty, otherwise the Saga has incorrect text. Ergo, the interpretation that includes Psychic aura's in aura abilities is the correct one.

It doesn't make it incorrect, it makes it redundant. A rule can be redundant and still valid.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:
... assumed...

And that's a problem as well.

How so?

BCB pointed out two interpretations of the aura abilities rule. Only one of them makes sense in context of Saga of Majesty, otherwise the Saga has incorrect text. Ergo, the interpretation that includes Psychic aura's in aura abilities is the correct one.

It doesn't make it incorrect, it makes it redundant. A rule can be redundant and still valid.

This is unfortunately true. We don't know if it's stating an exception or is intended as reminder text.

Maybe, but re-reading the Space Wolf FAQ we have this:

Q: Are the effects of Stratagems such as Cloaked by the Storm
and Howl of the Great Pack considered to be aura abilities for
the purpose of the Saga of Majesty Warlord Trait?
A: Yes.

A strategem can fall into the BRB definition of an aura ability and doesn't appear on a units datasheet.

This is solid evidence that "aura abilities" does not only refer to those on your datasheet.

JakeSiren wrote:
Maybe, but re-reading the Space Wolf FAQ we have this:

Q: Are the effects of Stratagems such as Cloaked by the Storm
and Howl of the Great Pack considered to be aura abilities for
the purpose of the Saga of Majesty Warlord Trait?
A: Yes.

A strategem can fall into the BRB definition of an aura ability and doesn't appear on a units datasheet.

This is solid evidence that "aura abilities" does not only refer to those on your datasheet.

It's literally the opposite of solid evidence. It's circumstantial evidence at best. I actually think the word abilities is the generic term, but it's by no means clear. Wanting a rule to be something doesn't make it so.

It’s not ‘evidence’ or ‘literally the opposite’, but it can be seen as a precedent that lends credence to one interpretation.

BCB, you answered everything in your first post - why crusade for one particular standpoint now? You summed it up just fine without re-arguing this one. Let’s... not?

JakeSiren wrote:
Maybe, but re-reading the Space Wolf FAQ we have this:

Q: Are the effects of Stratagems such as Cloaked by the Storm
and Howl of the Great Pack considered to be aura abilities for
the purpose of the Saga of Majesty Warlord Trait?
A: Yes.

A strategem can fall into the BRB definition of an aura ability and doesn't appear on a units datasheet.

This is solid evidence that "aura abilities" does not only refer to those on your datasheet.

the question literally asks if it's an aura ability "... for the purpose of the Saga of Majesty Warlord Trait...". For any other situation, there's still no clear answer.

 Ghaz wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:
Maybe, but re-reading the Space Wolf FAQ we have this:

Q: Are the effects of Stratagems such as Cloaked by the Storm
and Howl of the Great Pack considered to be aura abilities for
the purpose of the Saga of Majesty Warlord Trait?
A: Yes.

A strategem can fall into the BRB definition of an aura ability and doesn't appear on a units datasheet.

This is solid evidence that "aura abilities" does not only refer to those on your datasheet.

the question literally asks if it's an aura ability "... for the purpose of the Saga of Majesty Warlord Trait...". For any other situation, there's still no clear answer.

I suspect that the only 'clear' answer that you will accept is an explicit "psychic auras are aura abilities"

If you take all of the facts:
1) The Cursed Earth power is an ability that affects models in a certain range - so meets BRB definition of an aura
2) The space wolf FAQ shows that strategems meet the aura requirement for the saga, which demonstrates that an aura ability doesn't need to be on your datasheet.
3) The aura extending of the flawless cloak is similar to the space wolves saga, just without the exception of psychic powers, etc. This shows that psychic powers are considered to be in the set of aura abilities.

The weight of evidence/precedence favours psychic abilities as being auras over them not being considered auras.

JakeSiren wrote:
I suspect that the only 'clear' answer that you will accept is an explicit "psychic auras are aura abilities" ...

The weight of evidence/precedence favours psychic abilities as being auras over them not being considered auras.

No, what BCB and others are insisting is that there's literally not enough conclusive, definitive evidences provided in order to conclude that "psychic auras are aura abilities".

"One can naturally infer as such, but by no means can you make a definitive conclusion through series of circumstantial evidences, therefore discuss with opponent prior to the game" is the point.