Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Forewarned wrote:Use this Stratagem immediately after your opponent sets up a unit that is arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements within sight of one of your <CRAFTWORLD> units that is itself within 6" of a friendly <CRAFTWORLD> FARSEER. Your unit can immediately shoot at that enemy unit as if it were the Shooting phase.
Does this interact with Da Jump/Gate of Inifinty and similar powers and/or abilities?
Forewarned wrote:Use this Stratagem immediately after your opponent sets up a unit that is arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements within sight of one of your <CRAFTWORLD> units that is itself within 6" of a friendly <CRAFTWORLD> FARSEER. Your unit can immediately shoot at that enemy unit as if it were the Shooting phase.
Does this interact with Da Jump/Gate of Inifinty and similar powers and/or abilities?
Yes. Any unit that is set up mid turn is Reinforcements, as per the BRB Definition of Reinforcements.
It is unclear whether "units arriving as reinforcements" refers to any units being set up mid-game, even if they were previously on the battlefield, or only refers to units which were deployed off the battlefield and are being set up for the first time.
One group, which includes BCB, will say that any instance of being set up mid-game counts as "arriving"; another, which includes me, feels that a unit which was already on the battlefield is not "arriving", even if it is temporarily removed during the resolution of the ability.
As with any ambiguously-phrased and disputed issue, best to speak with your opponent / TO ahead of time, or if in doubt to roll for it. Hopefully GW will clarify at some point.
It is unclear whether "units arriving as reinforcements" refers to any units being set up mid-game, even if they were previously on the battlefield, or only refers to units which were deployed off the battlefield and are being set up for the first time.
One group, which includes BCB, will say that any instance of being set up mid-game counts as "arriving"; another, which includes me, feels that a unit which was already on the battlefield is not "arriving", even if it is temporarily removed during the resolution of the ability.
As with any ambiguously-phrased and disputed issue, best to speak with your opponent / TO ahead of time, or if in doubt to roll for it. Hopefully GW will clarify at some point.
If it's not arriving after being removed, how did it get onto the table? If, as you claim, it has not arrived, it obviously isn't able to move, shoot or affect the battlefield, since they have not arrived to it.
It is unclear whether "units arriving as reinforcements" refers to any units being set up mid-game, even if they were previously on the battlefield, or only refers to units which were deployed off the battlefield and are being set up for the first time.
One group, which includes BCB, will say that any instance of being set up mid-game counts as "arriving"; another, which includes me, feels that a unit which was already on the battlefield is not "arriving", even if it is temporarily removed during the resolution of the ability.
As with any ambiguously-phrased and disputed issue, best to speak with your opponent / TO ahead of time, or if in doubt to roll for it. Hopefully GW will clarify at some point.
If it's not arriving after being removed, how did it get onto the table? If, as you claim, it has not arrived, it obviously isn't able to move, shoot or affect the battlefield, since they have not arrived to it.
If you were at a party, and someone went to the kitchen to get a drink, would you say they had just arrived when they got back?
In other words: The unit had already arrived, earlier in the battle.
It is unclear whether "units arriving as reinforcements" refers to any units being set up mid-game, even if they were previously on the battlefield, or only refers to units which were deployed off the battlefield and are being set up for the first time.
One group, which includes BCB, will say that any instance of being set up mid-game counts as "arriving"; another, which includes me, feels that a unit which was already on the battlefield is not "arriving", even if it is temporarily removed during the resolution of the ability.
As with any ambiguously-phrased and disputed issue, best to speak with your opponent / TO ahead of time, or if in doubt to roll for it. Hopefully GW will clarify at some point.
If it's not arriving after being removed, how did it get onto the table? If, as you claim, it has not arrived, it obviously isn't able to move, shoot or affect the battlefield, since they have not arrived to it.
If you were at a party, and someone went to the kitchen to get a drink, would you say they had just arrived when they got back?
In other words: The unit had already arrived, earlier in the battle.
Yes, they left the living room, then arrived in the living room. You're trying to analogise the entire house as the battlefield, when it's only the living room.
It is unclear whether "units arriving as reinforcements" refers to any units being set up mid-game, even if they were previously on the battlefield, or only refers to units which were deployed off the battlefield and are being set up for the first time.
One group, which includes BCB, will say that any instance of being set up mid-game counts as "arriving"; another, which includes me, feels that a unit which was already on the battlefield is not "arriving", even if it is temporarily removed during the resolution of the ability.
As with any ambiguously-phrased and disputed issue, best to speak with your opponent / TO ahead of time, or if in doubt to roll for it. Hopefully GW will clarify at some point.
If it's not arriving after being removed, how did it get onto the table? If, as you claim, it has not arrived, it obviously isn't able to move, shoot or affect the battlefield, since they have not arrived to it.
If you were at a party, and someone went to the kitchen to get a drink, would you say they had just arrived when they got back?
In other words: The unit had already arrived, earlier in the battle.
Yes, they left the living room, then arrived in the living room. You're trying to analogise the entire house as the battlefield, when it's only the living room.
No, the analogy was that the house was the game, and that the living room is the battlefield.
However, this is where the dispute comes in. I'm genuinely surprised anyone would think that someone being at a party and popping out for literally seconds still qualifies as them "arriving" when they get back.
Either way, the point I was making is that the answer to the OP's question is disputed, and that it's best to clarify with the opponent.
Ah trust the GW to screw it. For auspex scan, the marine one that does pretty much similar thing with same trigger(setting up unit that is coming as reinforcement), it's easy peasy.
Q: Can the Auspex Scan Stratagem be used to shoot an enemy unit that is removed from the battlefield and then set up again, for example, when using a teleport homer?
A: Yes.
Whether you apply that to similar strategems is up to you thanks to GW only bothering to answer one specific use case. And for more fun whatabout the new marine 12" pushers? It's wording is pretty much spot on to auspex scan(effect is different, trigger is same) so does it work or not? Technically FAQ only talks about auspex scan strategem so gives permission for that to work but doesn't say anything about other strategems or non-strategems....
GW rule writing <3
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/10 11:30:46
OK, so that clears up my course of action. Shame there is no clear rules answer.
1) I'll bring up auspex scan as precedent and then let my opponent decide (without arguing with them) how they want to play it in friendly games where I'm Eldar.
2) I'll let them shoot me in friendly games where I'm playing against Eldar.
Well if aspect scan is working, than forewarned should too.
Both strat have the some trigger. My logic is that the farseer is able to see the future and know that the enemy unit with emerge from certain location, regardless if that was unit on the battlefield or hidden in reserve.
For instance the SM use their superior reflexes to shoot on the enemy who suddenly appear in front of them.
The Auspex scan faq comes from when the rulebook faq said units being removed and immediately placed on the battlefield count as moving and as reinforcements. When the last big faq came out that faq answer was changed in the rulebook faq and dropped the part about them counting as reinforcements, now it is just a "yes" that they count as moving.
If they no longer count as reinforcements, then the Auspex scan faq answer is out of date and invalid. If they still count as reinforcements, then GW would not remove that part of the rule book faq answer.
The people who mention the Auspex scan stratagem faq tend to ignore that change in the rulebook faq. The faq answer on them being reinforcements was changed to no longer listing them as reinforcements coinciding with the change in how tactical reserves works in the big faq1.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/04/10 13:40:44
blaktoof wrote: The people who mention the Auspex scan stratagem faq tend to ignore that change in the rulebook faq. The faq answer on them being reinforcements was changed to no longer listing them as reinforcements coinciding with the change in how tactical reserves works in the big faq1.
Of course those people who ignore the change in the rulebook FAQ still have the basic rules to fall back on, where reinforcements are described in the battle primer. Removing the FAQ answer saying they are reinforcements is not the same as changing the FAQ answer to say that they are not reinforcements. It's (obviously, given the threads here) still an area of contention.
Given the Auspex Scan answer is still in the FAQ unchanged and the wording for reinforcements in the basic rules, it looks that that answer can still be used as precedent for Forewarned.
The people who mention the Auspex scan stratagem faq tend to ignore that change in the rulebook faq. The faq answer on them being reinforcements was changed to no longer listing them as reinforcements coinciding with the change in how tactical reserves works in the big faq1.
Yeah, what is that about?
They FAQed the issue and now it's back because they deleted that sentence. WTH?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/10 14:18:45
The people who mention the Auspex scan stratagem faq tend to ignore that change in the rulebook faq. The faq answer on them being reinforcements was changed to no longer listing them as reinforcements coinciding with the change in how tactical reserves works in the big faq1.
Yeah, what is that about?
They FAQed the issue and now it's back because they deleted that sentence. WTH?
I think the rule is written poorly, what i think it`s mean is that teleport does not count as tactical reserve, so the Tactical reserve will not apply to them.
But it`s still reserve for purpose like moving and stratagems.
The people who mention the Auspex scan stratagem faq tend to ignore that change in the rulebook faq. The faq answer on them being reinforcements was changed to no longer listing them as reinforcements coinciding with the change in how tactical reserves works in the big faq1.
Yeah, what is that about? They FAQed the issue and now it's back because they deleted that sentence. WTH?
I think the rule is written poorly, what i think it`s mean is that teleport does not count as tactical reserve, so the Tactical reserve will not apply to them. But it`s still reserve for purpose like moving and stratagems.
It's definitely poorly written, but resolved the issue in a FAQ.
It was something along these lines, but worded as a question/answer: Some units can be removed from the battlefield and then set up again. Treat such units as if they are arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements.
This wasn't just for teleport either, but a general rule for all similiar abilities. It just doesn't make sense to remove it, but not replace it with anything else.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/10 14:53:09
It just doesn't make sense to remove it, but not replace it with anything else.
A FAQ is not an errata. Whether it is in there or not doesn't really change anything. Perhaps they removed it, simply because it wasn't asked as frequently anymore and simply eating space for an obvious rule which, frankly, hasn't change one bit ever since 8th edition was released now almost 2 years ago.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/10 15:29:05
It just doesn't make sense to remove it, but not replace it with anything else.
A FAQ is not an errata. Whether it is in there or not doesn't really change anything.
Except GW uses FAQ's and Errata interchangeably. GW changes rules with FAQ's all the time.
Any unit that is " set up on the battlefield mid-turn" is "Reinforcements" as per P. 3 of the battle primer, Reinforcements sidebar.
"Reinforcements
Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn... Units that are set up in this manner cannot... their entire Movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield – but they can otherwise act normally... Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved..." (I removed the unimportant parts of the rule).
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
blaktoof wrote: The Auspex scan faq comes from when the rulebook faq said units being removed and immediately placed on the battlefield count as moving and as reinforcements. When the last big faq came out that faq answer was changed in the rulebook faq and dropped the part about them counting as reinforcements, now it is just a "yes" that they count as moving.
If they no longer count as reinforcements, then the Auspex scan faq answer is out of date and invalid. If they still count as reinforcements, then GW would not remove that part of the rule book faq answer.
The people who mention the Auspex scan stratagem faq tend to ignore that change in the rulebook faq. The faq answer on them being reinforcements was changed to no longer listing them as reinforcements coinciding with the change in how tactical reserves works in the big faq1.
So what? The FAQ still exists. GW did not remove that. Ergo the faq is still valid. Or are we forced to now start to 2nd guess what parts of FAQ are actually valid?
Again, cause idk why it’s still confusing to people. Forwarded works. If you don’t like the wording, future Aeldari players, look at your opponent and say “I play eldar” then they have no argument
IDK...the rules for disembark tell you to setup the unit, it is mid game..are disembarking units reinforcements?
It comes down to some people see "arriving as reinforcements" and read that to say the models are arriving to the battlefield for the first time via reinforcements. Some people read it as any time the models are placed on the table
This same issue cropped up every edition prior with reserves, and the same abilities. Not that it means much as this is a new edition, but every previous edition rules that such abilities were not arriving as reserves and did not trigger various things like hunters from hyperspace etc. There are a lot of players from previous editions that I interpret arriving from reinforcements to mean being setup for the first time on the battlefield. As opposed to just being setup on the battlefield because of this.
Further GW doesn't make faqs then remove them in the same edition because the previous faq answered the question.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/12 03:14:30
blaktoof wrote: IDK...the rules for disembark tell you to setup the unit, it is mid game..are disembarking units reinforcements?
No, because with reinforcements "their entire Movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield" can a unit that disembark move after? If they can, then they can not be reinforcements, as their entire Movement phase was not used when deploying to the battlefield.
It comes down to some people see "arriving as reinforcements" and read that to say the models are arriving to the battlefield for the first time via reinforcements. Some people read it as any time the models are placed on the table
Only one reading is correct though, those that say "models are arriving to the battlefield for the first time" are incorrect because the rules do not mention "for the first time" at all.
This same issue cropped up every edition prior with reserves, and the same abilities. Not that it means much as this is a new edition, but every previous edition rules that such abilities were not arriving as reserves and did not trigger various things like hunters from hyperspace etc. There are a lot of players from previous editions that I interpret arriving from reinforcements to mean being setup for the first time on the battlefield. As opposed to just being setup on the battlefield because of this.
Further GW doesn't make faqs then remove them in the same edition because the previous faq answered the question.
Previous editions and FAQ's have no bearing on the 40K ruleset.
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
blaktoof wrote: IDK...the rules for disembark tell you to setup the unit, it is mid game..are disembarking units reinforcements?
No, because with reinforcements "their entire Movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield" can a unit that disembark move after? If they can, then they can not be reinforcements, as their entire Movement phase was not used when deploying to the battlefield.
RaW they are reinforcements, they just get a specific special rule saying they can move normally, which trumps the generic reinforcements rule.
blaktoof wrote: IDK...the rules for disembark tell you to setup the unit, it is mid game..are disembarking units reinforcements?
No, because with reinforcements "their entire Movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield" can a unit that disembark move after? If they can, then they can not be reinforcements, as their entire Movement phase was not used when deploying to the battlefield..
Where do you get this "their entire Movement phase" thing from?
The only thing to qualify as Reinforcement is the unit is set-up on the table mid-game. It can even happen in different phases such as the Psychic Phase (e.g. Da Jump). It can happen at the beginning of the movement phase (e.g. Grey Knight Interceptors). If GW makes a stratagem that you can remove a unit from the table and set it up again in the morale phase, that'd be that and it'd still be reinforcements.
Units being set-up according to the disembarking rules can move, because the disembarking rules explicitly give them permission to move. Otherwise, if they opt not to take their movement, they still count as having moved after (but not during) the movement phase they disembarked. That's all.
blaktoof wrote: IDK...the rules for disembark tell you to setup the unit, it is mid game..are disembarking units reinforcements?
No, because with reinforcements "their entire Movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield" can a unit that disembark move after? If they can, then they can not be reinforcements, as their entire Movement phase was not used when deploying to the battlefield..
Where do you get this "their entire Movement phase" thing from?
From the reinforcements rule I quoted earlier...
"Reinforcements
Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn... Units that are set up in this manner cannot... their entire Movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield – but they can otherwise act normally... Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved..." (I removed the unimportant parts of the rule). Page 3 battle Primer
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
blaktoof wrote: IDK...the rules for disembark tell you to setup the unit, it is mid game..are disembarking units reinforcements?
It comes down to some people see "arriving as reinforcements" and read that to say the models are arriving to the battlefield for the first time via reinforcements. Some people read it as any time the models are placed on the table
This same issue cropped up every edition prior with reserves, and the same abilities. Not that it means much as this is a new edition, but every previous edition rules that such abilities were not arriving as reserves and did not trigger various things like hunters from hyperspace etc. There are a lot of players from previous editions that I interpret arriving from reinforcements to mean being setup for the first time on the battlefield. As opposed to just being setup on the battlefield because of this.
Further GW doesn't make faqs then remove them in the same edition because the previous faq answered the question.
That was answered after the big faq 1, unit in transport are counted to be on the battlefield, so they are not triggering forewarned, since they are not set outside of the battlefield even for a second.
That was answered after the big faq 1, unit in transport are counted to be on the battlefield, so they are not triggering forewarned, since they are not set outside of the battlefield even for a second.
? can you link that.
I remember it the exact opposite. All (more case-specific) FAQ state that units in transports are NOT on the battlefield.
If you only have 2 Stormravens with Tactical Marines inside, you are tabled as per Boots on the Ground, as you only have Flyers on the table (because units in transports aren't)
If you have characters with auras/abilities in a transport, they don't work because those models aren't on the table (e.g. CP farming).
Etc...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/12 08:53:27
Marin wrote: That was answered after the big faq 1, unit in transport are counted to be on the battlefield, so they are not triggering forewarned, since they are not set outside of the battlefield even for a second.
They do not count as on the battlefield, they are simply counted towards the 50% that are "on the battlefield" for the purposes of having more than 50% of your army deployed in matched play.
