Switch Theme:

Probability of Killing Ahriman/Tigurius with a Vindicare  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Sinewy Scourge




Probability of Vindicare Killing Ahriman without rerolls



So the probabilities are as follows (with no reroll):

0 Damage = 42.1%
1 Damage = 05.6%
2 Damage = 11.6%
3 Damage = 15.4%
4 Damage = 11.9%
Kill = 13.2%

Now with a CP reroll

I'm working on the assumption that you use the reroll whenever you fail or when you roll a 1 or a 2 on the damage dice.

Splitting the probabilities for a reroll on the To Hit roll is easy we multiply all the outcomes by 1/6 (this is the probability distribution with a reroll) then copy all the probabilities for the successes, except that the 1/6 failure chance is already part of 0 damage so we subtract that from there.



For the reroll on the To Wound roll we can just repeat this process using the new To Hit Success from the previous calculation, as again the failure to wound is included in the 0 damage portion and the reroll can't be used if it already has been. In this case we subtract 5/36 instead of 1/6 as the entire computation is weighted as 5/6 of the whole, the other six being in the To Hit Reroll.




I'm assuming your opponent doesn't reroll the save, so skipping that part. Damage is a little more tricky as it changes weighting rather than the whole thing, in this case we need to rerun the calculation from my first post, but with the rerolls in place to shift the weighting. I've deducted 0 damage probabilities caused by failing to hit or wound and only left the 25/216 of a successful save in place, as the rest is accounted for in the To Hit and To Wound rerolls above. It's easiest at this point to also do the rerolls for the Headshot steps, so I'll combine that all below.



All we need do now is add all the results from the previous calculations together.



So the probabilities are as follows (with no reroll):

0 Damage = 42.1%
1 Damage = 05.6%
2 Damage = 11.6%
3 Damage = 15.4%
4 Damage = 11.9%
Kill = 13.2%

And with a reroll:

0 Damage = 22.8%
1 Damage = 03.9%
2 Damage = 09.4%
3 Damage = 16.5%
4 Damage = 18.1%
Kill = 29.3%

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/15 11:21:26


 
   
Made in fr
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver





Thanks a lot for going through the maths for us. 30% chance to one-shot a 5W infantry character EACH TURN is huge. In fact, I really think it's way too much, especially since those characters have a strong tendency to hurt themselves with Perils.

Also, you can have more than 1 Vindicare and they have this stupidly good Stratagem that let's them shoot again for 1CP...

I think GW went a bit too far with this update. Invulnerable saves should at least be allowed against the Vindicare.

Deffskullz desert scavengers
Thousand Sons 
   
Made in it
Shas'la with Pulse Carbine





I've personally played with Assassins since the WD treatment and I wouldn't nerf them too much, but they certainly need to be toned down imho.

Step 1 would be raising their cost to a straight 100 pts.
Step 2 would be raising the shoot twice stratagem to 2 CP.

This would be my personal solution to the issue. I haven't played the other three but they all seem solid on paper. They can't cost different points though.


 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 Nym wrote:
Thanks a lot for going through the maths for us. 30% chance to one-shot a 5W infantry character EACH TURN is huge. In fact, I really think it's way too much, especially since those characters have a strong tendency to hurt themselves with Perils.

Also, you can have more than 1 Vindicare and they have this stupidly good Stratagem that let's them shoot again for 1CP...

I think GW went a bit too far with this update. Invulnerable saves should at least be allowed against the Vindicare.

Nah - that is the cool part about him. The issue is his cost. He should probably be at least as expensive as the characters hes killing. Roughly 120 I'd say.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Aenar wrote:
I've personally played with Assassins since the WD treatment and I wouldn't nerf them too much, but they certainly need to be toned down imho.

Step 1 would be raising their cost to a straight 100 pts.
Step 2 would be raising the shoot twice stratagem to 2 CP.

This would be my personal solution to the issue. I haven't played the other three but they all seem solid on paper. They can't cost different points though.

I think that stratagem would be better off with a change. Give him a reroll hits and wound for 1 CP instead of another shot.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/15 14:32:13


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

Let's not go overboard here. Keep in mind that this math assumes the Vindi can SEE 1-2 characters. Considering how easy it is to hide a 1-model Infantry unit, it's not a bad as it looks.
Most support characters do not need to be in LoS to be useful.

If the Vindi has to move, he loses a lot. He'll only hit on 3+ and will no longer ignore other -1 penalties.
He also only wounds Infantry on 2+, so BIKE Characters aren't an ideal target.

But I agree that the shoot twice Strat would be better at 2CPs.

   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






I've used the vindicare multiple times. He's never done that much damage for me. I think the most use I've gotten from him has actually been finishing off 1 wound vehicles with his penetrator round, but that's basically the same thing as casting Smite but paying a CP to guarantee it goes off. Just keep your characters out of line of sight, and he's powerless. I've had games where I have to fire him into useless troops because there's nothing else in sight, and I feel like I wasted 1 CP and 85 points. If your smart about it, you can prevent him from doing much damage at all.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Keeping Bobby G or CatLady out of LoS is reasonable.

Keeping a Doom Farseer out of LOS means not using it.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Bharring wrote:


Keeping a Doom Farseer out of LOS means not using it.


Doom doesnt require line of sight. Nor does Jinx.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/15 15:57:48


 
   
Made in fr
Longtime Dakkanaut




Sterling191 wrote:
Bharring wrote:


Keeping a Doom Farseer out of LOS means not using it.


Doom doesnt require line of sight. Nor does Jinx.

And farseers/warlocks on bike aren't infantry.
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






Bharring wrote:
Keeping Bobby G or CatLady out of LoS is reasonable.

Keeping a Doom Farseer out of LOS means not using it.


Doom Farseers though are so obscenely powerful that there has to be SOME sort of counter play possible to get rid of it. You pop out of cover, Doom a Knight, and then have a 30% chance of dying to return fire from a Vindicare... I'm not seeing a problem with that. That also assumes that there's no way to keep the character out of LoS with the vindicare, while gaining LoS on the target for Doom... about half the time you can probably stay out of sight of the vindicare.

I doubt anyone is going to take a Vindicare vs Eldar for these reasons honestly. You're much better off with a Callidus, getting in close and assassinating a doomseer is way more likely to kill it.
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

Sterling191 wrote:
Bharring wrote:


Keeping a Doom Farseer out of LOS means not using it.


Doom doesnt require line of sight.
And in addition, a Doom Seer should have 6 wounds and be wounded by a Vindi on 3+, not 2+. Because Doomseers should be on Jetbikes and therefore not Infantry.
If your Farseer is Infantry, it'll be in or behind a Transport until needed.

-

   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: