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Made in us
[DCM]
Infiltrating Prowler





Portland, OR

Although this doesn't have to deal with miniatures gaming, it is an interesting development by Kickstarter. It is a new development than previously seen from Kickstarter and will be interesting to see if we start to see more of these things.

Kickstarter apparently now has a different status that isn't just simply "intellectual property dispute and is currently unavailable" that I have not seen before. It looks like they have a "Suspended" option/flag available. From what I understand, I am not sure how accurate it is, the company utilized two different Kickstarter accounts, running separate campaigns. It was suspended 2 days after it finished and funded, within the 2-4 weeks period before funds are released. Everyone is getting their money refunded.

I am wondering if now after campaign funds if they utilize the payment grace period to look further into 'flagged' or 'questionable' campaigns. I think it is about time they did something like that. The letter though is interesting that it says one of the following is "Outstanding fulfillment issues related to a previously successful crowdfunding campaign".

------------------------------
Hello,

This message from Kickstarter's Trust and Safety Team. We're writing to let you know that a project you recently backed, Papillion (Suspended), has been suspended. We also want to assure you that your $1.00 pledge has been canceled. To protect our community, we may suspend projects when they demonstrate one or more of the following:

  • Outstanding fulfillment issues related to a previously successful crowdfunding campaign
  • Running multiple, simultaneous projects
  • Failure or unwillingness to clearly communicate with backers

  • As a result, all backers will be refunded. No further action is required on your part.

    We take the integrity of the Kickstarter system very seriously. We only suspend projects when we find strong evidence that they are misrepresenting themselves or otherwise violating the letter or spirit of Kickstarter's rules. As a policy, we do not offer comment on project suspensions beyond what is stated in this message.

    We know this isn't ideal. But we do sincerely hope to see you again soon, backing one or more of the amazing projects that do cross the finish line, without a hitch, each and every day.

    Here's to next time,
    Kickstarter Trust and Safety
    ------------------------------

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/20 00:43:54


     
       
    Made in ca
    God-like Imperator Titan Commander





    Halifax

    Makes you curious about what KS they had unfulfilled under a different user.

       
    Made in gb
    Dakka Veteran





    None if the information in the first post is to go by.
    They were running two at once on different accounts?
       
    Made in us
    [DCM]
    Infiltrating Prowler





    Portland, OR

    I don't have a lot of information, just was surprised to know they are doing suspending now (which is good and bad but mostly good and something that has been long time asked by users). I've mostly been lurking in the Facebook Boardgame groups where it is being discussed. Someone mentioned that they have 8 open projects, including 2 there were running at the same time on KS. In less than 18 months they have 14 projects of which only 4 have fulfilled so far.

    Papillon was the original game Suspended under Kolossal Games that funded a few days ago. At the same time, it was suspended a current running campaign for Hunt the Ravager was being run under a different name Kolossal Mikro. It does state they are doing smaller box games from Kolossal Games and Kolossal Games is still listed as the Main Account for Mikro. Technically though that means the same company running 2 different campaigns, at the same time with 2 different accounts.

    As it is brought up in the comments section, CMON has outstanding 6 KS as well, but they do have a longer history of delivery and they haven't run two different campaigns at the same time with different accounts (that I'm aware of).

    It does sound like there have been some policy changes, which is probably a welcome addition, that they are at least looking into some accountability. I don't see that being a benefit for KS that funded and haven't delivered, but it definitely could stop them from trying to run a second campaign so they aren't caught running one KS to pay for the last one type of thing.

    Edit: KS official statement it could for running multiple campaigns but it could also be for previously outstanding fulfillment they won't say more either way. Kolossal Games from what I have heard and read, is basically saying "Oops our bad, nothing suspcious here. We didn't know and made a mistake but plan to be back on track soon(tm)". The comments seem to be 50/50, because of the internet and toxic and some are like "Let's leave KS, if I want to spend money then it is my risk". Definitely some weird statements but interesting to read though.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/20 01:47:06


     
       
    Made in us
    Longtime Dakkanaut




    Thanks!

    The game they fulfilled was Western Legends, but you can find some unhappy customers there as well. Most of these games can be found on BGG for more drama. Er, comments.

    https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/kolossalgames/western-legends/comments

    https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/2189098/kickstarter-suspended
    https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/2188348/kickstarter-suspended

    Also, suspension of Maple Games, which may be related to Kolossal. : https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/2188565/and-funding-suspended-kickstarter

    And... a few more non-gaming crowdfunding fails. : https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2018/8/29/17793720/ftc-ibackpack-investigation-indiegogo-kickstarter

    This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/04/20 05:29:00


    "And while I'm forgiving of one mishap, this string of incidences suggests the problem is with the project managers, not whom they hire, what materials they are using, what language their backers are using, etc. I do notice that entrepreneurs have more self-confidence than other people, and need it to persevere bad luck and obstacles. But this self-confidence can turn into "do nothing wrong" blindness, which prevents these people from admitting mistakes and improving themselves." -- September 3, 2014 
       
    Made in us
    [DCM]
    Infiltrating Prowler





    Portland, OR

    ced1106 wrote:
    Also, suspension of Maple Games, which may be related to Kolossal. : https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/2188565/and-funding-suspended-kickstarter
    I don't believe they are connected to Kolossal Games but they do have 2 undelivered KS currently while they were running Folding Space. Dragon Boats of the Four Seas funded Oct 21, 2018 and Imagineers (I backed that) funded Dec 2, 2018. It looks like they just started Folding Space this month, didn't even know they had another campaign until you brought them up (which I thought the name was familiar) but from comments looks like some people could have reported them or KS is actively looking more closely at these things. I would like to think it is more the latter since that means they are starting to take a closer look at campaigns but is probably because someone reported it.
       
    Made in gb
    Fixture of Dakka




    UK

    KS had done this before, about a year ago the Ukrainian company that was recasting Confrontation models started their own game and KS at the same time the Confrontation team was doing their own and the Confrontation team got the other company KS suspended for a while. Though it was pretty much just a dirty move at that time and KS reopened it and they fully funded.


    I think the thing is KS is starting to have to research things and keep an eye on it. There's more than a few companies that get sucked into the KS system of funding one product and running out of money and running a second to fund the first; which means they then need a third to fund the second - and it snowballs from there. I think KS is keeping a tighter eye on those to prevent multiple KS projects under the same company all failling at once - which only leads to disgruntled customers and less money for KS (once a person has been burned with a failed KS they are far less likely to fund others and even if they do they will spend far less)

    A Blog in Miniature - now featuring reviews of many new Black Library books (latest Novellas) 
       
    Made in gb
    [DCM]
    Decrepit Dakkanaut




    UK

    Legends of Signum was suspended under the 'IP' dispute protocol rather than this new one so slightly different

    I wonder if they're going to be cracking down on companies that run Indiegogo campaigns (or other crowd funders) at similar times for the same project as I've seen a few of them recently

     
       
    Made in us
    Regular Dakkanaut




    Very interesting development for sure. I'm guessing (especially since they won't disclose exactly how they determine what violates this new stance) that these sorts of suspensions will be decided on a case-by-case basis. Curious to see what they would think of projects from Modiphius, who aren't blatantly not delivering but they are clearly extremely slow at it to the point that it's likely (IMO) they are indeed finishing old projects using the funding from new ones. For that matter, CMON could be doing the same thing though in fairness their delivery track record is much better than Modiphius.
       
    Made in gb
    [DCM]
    Decrepit Dakkanaut




    UK

    I wonder if this is going to scupper any future projects by companies that have 'switched' identity while basically being the same entities

    sProdos becoming Archon (i'd say they were at fairly high risk as they've not fully devlivered AvP and the idenitity change was pretty clearly intended to distance them from their troublesome project)

    Titan-Forge became Titanforgegames not entirely sure why their steampunk dwarves were slow but did deliver

    and i'm sure there will be others who've done it too for whatever reason perhaps to hide a dud project, perhaps to differentiate project types, perhaps just because they wanted to change their company name

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/20 12:28:56


     
       
    Made in gb
    Regular Dakkanaut





    Its not the 1st time for KS issuing suspensions as last June they suspended Overturn Raising Sands by Foxtales Games blatant rip off and im sure ive heard or seen ones suspended before then

    https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1412544049/overturn-rising-sands/description
       
    Made in us
    Near Golden Daemon Caliber





    Affton, MO. USA

     Original Timmy wrote:
    Its not the 1st time for KS issuing suspensions as last June they suspended Overturn Raising Sands by Foxtales Games blatant rip off and im sure ive heard or seen ones suspended before then

    https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1412544049/overturn-rising-sands/description


    Again, that is because of IP disputes, this instance is because the company was using two accounts to run campaigns and not communicating with backers on the other account. In essence they are watching companies using their platform to grab money and not fulfill previous campaigns.

    LOL, Theo your mind is an amazing place, never change.-camkierhi 9/19/13
    I cant believe theo is right.. damn. -comradepanda 9/26/13
    None of the strange ideas we had about you involved your sexual orientation..........-Monkeytroll 12/10/13

    I'd put you on ignore for that comment, if I could...Alpharius 2/11/14 
       
    Made in gb
    Regular Dakkanaut





     Theophony wrote:
     Original Timmy wrote:
    Its not the 1st time for KS issuing suspensions as last June they suspended Overturn Raising Sands by Foxtales Games blatant rip off and im sure ive heard or seen ones suspended before then

    https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1412544049/overturn-rising-sands/description


    Again, that is because of IP disputes, this instance is because the company was using two accounts to run campaigns and not communicating with backers on the other account. In essence they are watching companies using their platform to grab money and not fulfill previous campaigns.


    IP disputes have the page taken down and a notice in place, Overturn got suspended because of the evidence of them pretty much stealing most of their ideas/logos etc no actual IP dispute was issued, KS suspended the campaign and creator before any company could issue a C&D, thats even if the particular companies was aware of their IPs being stolen, i believe it was suspended under the ToS where you can not present someone else work as your own.

    This is what a IP dispute page looks like.

    https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/513277403/alien-vs-predator-the-miniatures-game
       
    Made in us
    Longtime Dakkanaut




    Credit to Tony.

    I think Dark is talking about a suspension for a specific type of creator, who, previously, would get away with running multiple projects. In other words, he's raising the topic of KS becoming more active in this grey area. KS has certainly been involved in IP issues for awhile (eg. AvP).

    "Crowdfunding gives gadget makers the power to launch their own companies, but sometimes their dream dies not long after launch. In this episode of In the Making, reporter Ashley Carman looks at how crowdfunding platforms Kickstarter and Indiegogo are changing their business to prevent creators from never shipping their product.





    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Kevin on BGG:

    "DISCLAIMER: This post is strictly for reference and is NOT me slamming Kolossal Games in any fashion. Kolossal has never failed to deliver on any of their KS campaigns and Travis has always seemed like a nice guy any time I've met him. There are some posts on Reddit that are using my list below to make it sound like I'm "red flagging" Kolossal, but that's not the case at all. I saw a lot of people posting about how many game Kolossal has open right now, so I made a list for easy reference.

    So with that inane disclaimer out of the way...

    This is a list of all their currently OPEN projects (as of 4/19/2019) that have been funded through Kickstarter:

    Eclipse: Second Dawn for the Galaxy - Funded July 29 2018
    Terrors of London - Funded Aug 19 2018
    Mezo - Funded Oct 21 2018
    All Manor of Evil - Funded Nov 15 2018
    Western Legends: Ante Up - Funded Jan 23 2019
    The Clowdus Collection - Funded Feb 7 2019
    Consumption: Food and Choices - Funded March 7 2019
    Papillon - Funded Apr 17 2019

    Again, please keep in mind that most are fairly recent, so don't take this list as me trying to slight them in any way. I realize that's been their plan all along to hit KS hard and heavy, but I'm not sure if a fairly small imprint should have that many irons in the fire at once. Just my non-expert opinion.

    For the sake of completeness, here's a list of KS campaigns that have been successfully delivered to backers. Fulfillment dates are based upon North American shipping:

    Western Legends - Fulfilled Sept 2018
    Kami-sama - Fulfilled Dec 2018
    Imperius - Fulfilled Dec 2018
    The Omen Saga - Fulfilled Feb 2019

    https://boardgamegeek.com/article/31777911#31777911

    This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/20 21:42:33


    "And while I'm forgiving of one mishap, this string of incidences suggests the problem is with the project managers, not whom they hire, what materials they are using, what language their backers are using, etc. I do notice that entrepreneurs have more self-confidence than other people, and need it to persevere bad luck and obstacles. But this self-confidence can turn into "do nothing wrong" blindness, which prevents these people from admitting mistakes and improving themselves." -- September 3, 2014 
       
     
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