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Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User





Indiana

So digging thru my Marine stuff I have a lot of Blood Angel stuff so thinking I'm going to build my current marines as Blood Angels and play it for a while. Once it's finished I feel like I will sell it and build the something a little more my style.


But to my question I have 10-15 metal marines in a running pose most have skulls and some have blood angel emblem so thinking these would be great Death Company. I have the bits to build these guys but I don't think I have the jump packs. My thinking is just build them as I have them and not spend the cash to buy jump packs not sure the price but guessing $1.50-2.00 each.

With the new rules it sounds like the Death Company aren't as good as they where back in the day.

Should I order the jump packs or just build them with out them?


Thanks
Will post pics of these guys once I start building them.

   
Made in us
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine




The Blood Angels are in a rough place right now. We can't overwhelm our opponents in CQC anymore. So many armies can out fight us now. You take them because you want them more than because they are really good. That said.

In my experience they are good, but fragile. The most common way to use them is 10-15 with jump packs deepstriking and then use the stratagem "Decent of Angels" into your target. They will probably kill it and then get shot to death. So apply carefully.

I'm currently experimenting with a 6 jump pack/ 6 foot in Assback build. I like the flexibility of attacking one or two targets, but it comes at the expense of durability.
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User





Indiana

Thanks for the info. I like the BA fluff and the armies look great on the table but they have never been one of my favorites I like Space wolfs better but these models don't really convert well to SW.

I have thought about doing them all as Raven Guard but it is a lot of assault troops here. Not sure how I ended up with this many but will make it work.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/24 19:16:59


 
   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Macon, GA

Power armor in general is in a pretty bad way, but if you are running it, giving it FLY, faster movement, and the ability to use "descent of Angels" at least is the most fun.


My Painted Armies
: Co. B, 37th Praetorian IG: 21,000pts
KOW Ogres: 4500 points
Loyalist Emperor's Children: 2500 points 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





UK

Always Jump Packs. 10 Jump Packs are cheaper than getting the squad a Rhino and allows the squad to make use of Descent of Angels as well as much better use of Forlorn Fury.

They hit hard but are pretty fragile so don't expect them to survive long (which is kinda the point in fluff terms). I tend to either go for fast flanking attacks to minimise retaliation or throw them at the centre of my opponent's army in the hope that they will tear a hole the rest of my army can exploit.

Lemartes really buffs these guys with rerolls both charge and to hit. He got a price drop to 100 points in Chapter Approved and is almost an auto-include if you are running DC.

A sprinkling of heavier assault weapons is goo for allowing the DC to take on large targets but don't go overboard. 3 Power fists are under 30 points but will do quite a lot of damage to vehicles and monsters.

Possibly not the most competitive assault unit in the game but they are pretty good and (more importantly) are fun and thematic for Blood Angels.

I stand between the darkness and the light. Between the candle and the star. 
   
Made in us
Hardened Veteran Guardsman




Illinois

The game is won in the movement phase. If something has the option of jump packs or wings always take it.
   
Made in gb
Irked Blood Angel Scout with Combat Knife



Swansea, Wales, UK

 Crimson Devil wrote:
The Blood Angels are in a rough place right now. We can't overwhelm our opponents in CQC anymore. So many armies can out fight us now. You take them because you want them more than because they are really good. That said.

In my experience they are good, but fragile. The most common way to use them is 10-15 with jump packs deepstriking and then use the stratagem "Decent of Angels" into your target. They will probably kill it and then get shot to death. So apply carefully.

I'm currently experimenting with a 6 jump pack/ 6 foot in Assback build. I like the flexibility of attacking one or two targets, but it comes at the expense of durability.


I have to disagree. Blood Angels are still absolutely deadly when piloted competently.
I've played Blood Angels for over 10 years, since 3rd edition so my experience with the army is quite substantial. Since 8th Edition I have exclusively been playing them purely, despite the handicap that inherently comes with playing a mono-codex army this edition.

The issue is that the majority of Blood Angel players do not understand how to build a balanced army and instead go all-out on CC units. Another problem is that people do not understand that our 3 different jump-assault units (DC, Sang Guard, Pfist/SS VVets) essentially have different roles when it comes to the types of units that they should target. If DC go after huge blobs of infantry, they will decimate them, Sanguinary Guard will chew up any elite infantry in the game and Vvets will severely damage/destroy the majority of vehicles/monsters in the game- however, all of these instances depend on the Blood Angels getting the charge and that is where the skill of the pilot comes in.

Blood Angels are like a scalpel not a machete, and this is what new/inexperienced BA players do not understand. How many times have you watched BA players on Youtube Batreps recklessly suicide their expensive melee units into combat with sub-optimal targets thinking that it is the optimal strategy? This leads to the presumptions that Blood Angels are very weak in general.
Other issues arise due to people not taking CP-economy or adequate fire-support into consideration when composing their army.
Our units become extremely effective with correct use of stratagems. Without those stratagems, we still hit pretty hard but lose a significant edge. As a result I am a firm believer in running lists along the lines of double batallion (for CP), involving 2 slam captains, 1 Libby dread, Lemartes/Astorath (this depends on what assault unit you prefer/fits your meta) and one big blob of either Vanguard Vets (SS/PF) or DC (BG/CS but 1 TH per 5 marines). Any more melee units will stretch your CP reserves too thin.

Understanding some of these concepts in more depth makes Blood Angels ALOT more scary to deal with, although I do fully agree that marines in general are in a bad spot.
If marines were assisted accross the board and souping was rightfully restricted, then a skilled BA player would be a very scary adversary.

I have a consistent X-1 record with them accross a few RTTs I have participated in and I haven't lost a game against local, competitive-orientated opponents for some time.
I am not advocating myself to be the best BA player or anything, but I believe that a different mind-set is required regarding them.

Just my thoughts anyway.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




The problem is these concepts are irrelevant or insufficient vs most top builds.

I consider it obvious that the different cc units are better for certain jobs. But even if you are careful, its usually a one-way trip.

BA are fighting the flaws of marines and flaws of cqc in 8th ed.
   
Made in gb
Irked Blood Angel Scout with Combat Knife



Swansea, Wales, UK

Martel732 wrote:
The problem is these concepts are irrelevant or insufficient vs most top builds.

I consider it obvious that the different cc units are better for certain jobs. But even if you are careful, its usually a one-way trip.

BA are fighting the flaws of marines and flaws of cqc in 8th ed.


It is definitely an up-hill battle but it is not impossible to succeed, even against "top builds". That is the point I am trying to get across, and as much as you think it is obvious to recognize the different roles the jump-assault units have, many people seem ignorant to it regardless.

To succeed as a BA player you have to know the cc phase intimately, build a well-balanced army with good CP-economy planned out, have thorough knowledge of the capabilities of your units and your opponents (both shooting and CC) and you have to force your opponent to make mistakes to take advantage of. Admittedly this becomes more difficult against more competent opponents but everyone makes mistakes and due to the nature of large events, the draining effect of playing so much 40k over two days can expose openings for you to take advantage of.

But yes, marines are in a hard spot overall and hopefully GW recognizes that. The Beta Bolter Rule was a step in the right direction. Hopefully it is a sign of more buffs to come. Beta Power Armour Rule please?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/25 03:49:48


 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User





Indiana

Thanks for all the info everyone. Hope to start building models tonight.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




AledM wrote:
 Crimson Devil wrote:
The Blood Angels are in a rough place right now. We can't overwhelm our opponents in CQC anymore. So many armies can out fight us now. You take them because you want them more than because they are really good. That said.

In my experience they are good, but fragile. The most common way to use them is 10-15 with jump packs deepstriking and then use the stratagem "Decent of Angels" into your target. They will probably kill it and then get shot to death. So apply carefully.

I'm currently experimenting with a 6 jump pack/ 6 foot in Assback build. I like the flexibility of attacking one or two targets, but it comes at the expense of durability.


I have to disagree. Blood Angels are still absolutely deadly when piloted competently.
I've played Blood Angels for over 10 years, since 3rd edition so my experience with the army is quite substantial. Since 8th Edition I have exclusively been playing them purely, despite the handicap that inherently comes with playing a mono-codex army this edition.

The issue is that the majority of Blood Angel players do not understand how to build a balanced army and instead go all-out on CC units. Another problem is that people do not understand that our 3 different jump-assault units (DC, Sang Guard, Pfist/SS VVets) essentially have different roles when it comes to the types of units that they should target. If DC go after huge blobs of infantry, they will decimate them, Sanguinary Guard will chew up any elite infantry in the game and Vvets will severely damage/destroy the majority of vehicles/monsters in the game- however, all of these instances depend on the Blood Angels getting the charge and that is where the skill of the pilot comes in.

Blood Angels are like a scalpel not a machete, and this is what new/inexperienced BA players do not understand. How many times have you watched BA players on Youtube Batreps recklessly suicide their expensive melee units into combat with sub-optimal targets thinking that it is the optimal strategy? This leads to the presumptions that Blood Angels are very weak in general.
Other issues arise due to people not taking CP-economy or adequate fire-support into consideration when composing their army.
Our units become extremely effective with correct use of stratagems. Without those stratagems, we still hit pretty hard but lose a significant edge. As a result I am a firm believer in running lists along the lines of double batallion (for CP), involving 2 slam captains, 1 Libby dread, Lemartes/Astorath (this depends on what assault unit you prefer/fits your meta) and one big blob of either Vanguard Vets (SS/PF) or DC (BG/CS but 1 TH per 5 marines). Any more melee units will stretch your CP reserves too thin.

Understanding some of these concepts in more depth makes Blood Angels ALOT more scary to deal with, although I do fully agree that marines in general are in a bad spot.
If marines were assisted accross the board and souping was rightfully restricted, then a skilled BA player would be a very scary adversary.

I have a consistent X-1 record with them accross a few RTTs I have participated in and I haven't lost a game against local, competitive-orientated opponents for some time.
I am not advocating myself to be the best BA player or anything, but I believe that a different mind-set is required regarding them.

Just my thoughts anyway.


Everything you've said there sounds fine...in theory. In practice it just doesn't work. The biggest problem with BA is they have to get the charge, but in order to be really effective they really need a bunch of buffs, which are all limited in range to the point that you ideally want to make 2-4 charges with your units the turn they arrive. One is usually fine, two OK but beyond that it gets very risky. It's nothing to do with player skill and everything to do with a reliance on mechanics that you can't guarantee to be able to apply where you want. This is one of the many things that makes shooting so strong - any shooting buffs from characters will pretty much always apply where you want them to. In close combat, you better hope you brought enough expendable dudes to string your unit back far enough to get within the buff bubble, or you can roll well enough to get your characters and the units they're supporting into combat at the same time.

BA also suffer from having units that are just bad. Death Company are OK, but overpriced and oddly fragile (they actually have the lowest Ld of any Space Marine unit - thanks GW!) To the OP, I'd go with jump packs for preference. Sanguinary Guard are woeful. I completely disagree that they carve up any elite infantry. They get 2 attacks each and only get full re-rolls if the warlord is nearby (see problems above) and quite often those elite infantry will have Invulnerable saves (or, more often, won't exist at all because most armies are better off with more guys). Encarmine weapons are comically overpriced. They're Force weapons for more than double the cost. Vanguard Vets are decent but they overlap with Death Company a bit too much.

Having said that, it's certainly true that if you want a successful BA army you need to consider your CP spend quite carefully. I always have at least 10 CPs in my mono-BA army and it would be more but SM Troops are so bad it feels like a tax taking more than one Battalion. You'll need shooting of some substance and not just all your points sunk into smash captains and close combat specialists.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




You play SG with counts-as power fists. Make the sanguinary ancient the warlord and give it the standard of sacrifice. Throw in a libby for lulz maybe.
   
Made in gb
Irked Blood Angel Scout with Combat Knife



Swansea, Wales, UK

Slipspace wrote:


Everything you've said there sounds fine...in theory. In practice it just doesn't work. The biggest problem with BA is they have to get the charge, but in order to be really effective they really need a bunch of buffs, which are all limited in range to the point that you ideally want to make 2-4 charges with your units the turn they arrive. One is usually fine, two OK but beyond that it gets very risky. It's nothing to do with player skill and everything to do with a reliance on mechanics that you can't guarantee to be able to apply where you want. This is one of the many things that makes shooting so strong - any shooting buffs from characters will pretty much always apply where you want them to. In close combat, you better hope you brought enough expendable dudes to string your unit back far enough to get within the buff bubble, or you can roll well enough to get your characters and the units they're supporting into combat at the same time.

BA also suffer from having units that are just bad. Death Company are OK, but overpriced and oddly fragile (they actually have the lowest Ld of any Space Marine unit - thanks GW!) To the OP, I'd go with jump packs for preference. Sanguinary Guard are woeful. I completely disagree that they carve up any elite infantry. They get 2 attacks each and only get full re-rolls if the warlord is nearby (see problems above) and quite often those elite infantry will have Invulnerable saves (or, more often, won't exist at all because most armies are better off with more guys). Encarmine weapons are comically overpriced. They're Force weapons for more than double the cost. Vanguard Vets are decent but they overlap with Death Company a bit too much.

Having said that, it's certainly true that if you want a successful BA army you need to consider your CP spend quite carefully. I always have at least 10 CPs in my mono-BA army and it would be more but SM Troops are so bad it feels like a tax taking more than one Battalion. You'll need shooting of some substance and not just all your points sunk into smash captains and close combat specialists.


Sanguinary Guard aren't amazing but when run in combination with a Sanguinary Ancient and the Sanguinor, they became pretty good. Back when the codex was being developed, people from FLG said that the Blood Angels codex was being balanced around characters that buffed and so we should evaluate them as such rather than as individual units in a vacuum. Although, I do admit that is quite a points investment and you might struggle to get every bit of value out of them.

With regards to DC, yes their leadership is low but as I have pointed out, they are intended to be run alongside Lemartes or Astorath, both of which significantly assist them in the LD department (in addition to significantly increasing their damage output and reliability of making successful charges in the case of Lemartes)- but again I concede that ultimately these dudes SHOULD be fearless, without a doubt.

Your comparison of VVets to DC is mostly incorrect. DC traditionally are the "meatgrinders" and are used to chew through mass infantry with their boltguns and 4 attacks on the charge each. They have the capacity to hurt larger targets due to weight of attacks, the red thirst and the standard inclusion of 3 Thunder hammers in a 15-man blob, but ultimately you want these guys clearing your opponents infantry blobs before moving onto less suitable targets. VVets tend to be equipped with Stormshields and powerfists due to the points reductions they received and have now become the anti-armour/elite-infatry, jump-assault choice (replacing Sanguinary Guard entirely for most people). I typically run these alongside Astorath for full rerolls and potentially +1 to hit from his ability (negating the unwieldy -1 modifier on the fists). They can be quite devastating and have done very well for me in many of my recent games.

As for your statement that making 2-4 charges is optimal per turn, I would disagree. Due to the nature of 8th Edition close-combat and the interrupt stratagem, I would say that it is more optimal to make one hugely impactful charge, that ties up as many units as possible. This way you don't leave yourself open to losing models/units before they have even had a chance to attack through clever use of the interrupt stratagem. This assumption that more charges = better is what causes most people to fail when playing Blood Angels I feel.
I believe that pacing your melee threats throughout the duration of the game is the better choice as:

1. You are able to extract more value out of each unit as your opponent cannot interrupt them before the damage has been dealt.
2. It presents them with a must-deal-with threat in their lines, drawing fire away from the rest of your army-getting more value out of the assault unit.
3. It allows you to safely deliver them into combat via Descent of Angels each turn (although I appreciate this is not 100% guarantee, but statistically you should pull it off).
4. It keeps the opponent wary of what unit is coming at them next and from where. This can make them play too safely or cause them to make mistakes that you can punish.

You should try taking a double Batallion of 3x Scout squads with bolter/HB and 3x 5-man intercessors. The beta bolter rule has definitely helped and I am always glad of the extra troop choices in my games, as well as the extra CP they bring along with them.

Lastly, these concepts CAN work in both theory and practice but ultimately there are always going to be better or worse matchups and it ultimately comes down to the skill of the players and the rolls of the dice in those cases.
Of course I can only relate to my own experience however.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/25 17:46:28


 
   
Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

Well, its a little bit off topic but in the meanwhile I stay away from them.
DC is a one-hit wonder as already said above.
I play BA shooty and use Sanguinary Guard as counter charge unit if necessary.

Former moderator 40kOnline

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Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




The real question is why bother with 20 ppm DC and a babysitter tax when the onslought gatling cannon exists? Getting that close to a horde list is essentially suicide.

I also like to start SG on the board with the banner. In cover, they are a great fire magnet.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/26 15:08:23


 
   
 
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