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New text from the FAQ:


Question 1 - Leman Russ Grinding Advance:

"If this model remains stationary or moves half....It can shoot its turret weapon twice in the following Shooting Phase (the turret weapon must target the same unit both times)."

So, assuming that in its previous movement phase, a leman russ moved half or less, and a unit declares a charge at it, would its turret weapon fire twice because it is fired "as if it were the shooting phase"?

Or does the specification that it can shoot its turret twice IN THE FOLLOWING shooting phase prevent that from happening?

Is the theoretical "As if it were the shooting phase" now specified in overwatch attacks considered to be this turn's shooting phase, or is it some floaty theoretical shooting phase that pops into existence when someone makes a charge?

Question 2 - Flash Gitz' "Gun Crazy Show-Offs"

"After this unit has shot in the shooting phase, roll a D6. On a 6 the unit can immediately shoot again, but can only target the nearest enemy unit."

It's very clear with this faq answer that I should be rolling for gun crazy show offs when making overwatch attacks, but when I do roll a 6, what actually happens?

A) I make an immediate Overwatch shooting attack against the closest enemy unit, whatever it is (i.e., a normal shooting attack but I only hit on unmodded 6s)

B) I make an immediate regular shooting attack against the closest enemy unit, whatever it is

C) I make an immediate Overwatch shooting attack against the closest enemy unit ONLY IF the closest enemy unit is the unit that declared a charge on me originally

Reading the rules for Overwatch I am inclined to lean towards door number A, because Overwatch specifies that it follows all the normal rules for shooting (albeit in the enemy charge phase) except that unmodified rolls of 6 are required and now Overwatch is made "as if it were the shooting phase" which would make GCSO's apply. However the rules do say "The target unit can immediately fire Overwatch at the would-be attacker" and the "at the would-be attacker" is the only reason I include door number C. Are the words "at the would be attacker" a limit to the targets I can choose, and does that limit COMBINE with the "must be closest enemy unit" limitation from Gun Crazy Show Offs, rather than get overridden by it?

Question 1.

Skipping irrelevant phases:
Your movement phase: Don't move
Your shooting phase: Gets the buff
Their movement phase: Don't move (maybe?)
Their shooting phase: Gets the buff
Their Charge phase: It's as if it were a Shooting Phase, but it is not the *following* Shooting Phase - that was the opponent's.

There might be an argument about whether you use that rule during the *opponent's* movement phase, but that's a weaker argument at best, and would result in the same outcome.

Aren't FAQ's supposed to make things clear? Not barrage you with nonsense?

This one is very clear. You cannot do it.

Grinding advances allows you to shoot in the FOLLOWING shooting phase. No matter how you spin it, a shooting phase comes before the charge phase so it cannot be used on OW.

Leman russ moves less than half his movement in his movement phase.
Leman russ shoots twice in his next shooting phase.
Leman russ's player charge phase
Meele phase

Enemy turn
Enemy movement phase
Enemy psychic phase
Enemy shooting phase
Enemy charge phase
Leman Russ makes overwatch

How exactly is the point where that leman russ fires overwatch understood to be the "next shooting phase"? That moment has already happened.

The ork case in the other hand isn't that clear.

Next shooting phase is the one who comes inmediatelly in the turn you are, isnt't it? Some times rules are so unclear.

So if you overwatch in this turn you will be able to shoot your turret twice?

I am going to use for my first time LR, so it would be nice for me if I have this clear.

Or:
Friendly Movement phase:
-LR moves half distance
-Termies deepstrike and get Auspex'ed by a Tactical Squad
Shooting Phase:
-Does the LR shoot once or twice? Was the "Following" shooting phase the interception the other side did with a Tactical Squad?

That would be debateable, but purely on a RAW level. The RAI is clear.

 Galas wrote:
Leman russ moves less than half his movement in his movement phase.
Leman russ shoots twice in his next shooting phase.
Leman russ's player charge phase
Meele phase

Enemy turn
Enemy movement phase
Enemy psychic phase
Enemy shooting phase
Enemy charge phase
Leman Russ makes overwatch

How exactly is the point where that leman russ fires overwatch understood to be the "next shooting phase"? That moment has already happened.

The ork case in the other hand isn't that clear.

OK, I think that resolves the Leman Russ question for me. It is definitely the "in the following shooting phase" bit that resolves it, rather than it being a general "in the shooting phase" rule.

I think the rules are pointing me towards case C for the Flash Gitz. It's a bit of a strange interaction, but:

-The flash gitz always roll for Gun Crazy in the Shooting Phase, so they now also roll for that in Overwatch

-Overwatch rules allow you to fire at the unit declaring a charge against you

-Gun Crazy showoffs restrict you to firing at the closest enemy unit

So, if the closest enemy unit is also the enemy unit declaring the charge against you, Gun Crazy Showoffs can trigger on a 6, and the Overwatch restriction of only hitting on a natural 6 also applies to that second attack.

If the closest enemy unit is not the enemy unit declaring the charge against you, the rules for Overwatch prevent you from making your shooting attack against any unit other than the one declaring a charge against you, so you can't use the Gun Crazy shooting attack.

I'm not so sure. From one of the Q and As in the main rule book..

When a rule allows a model or unit to take an action (move, shoot, charge, fight or attempt to manifest a psychic power) outside of the normal turn sequence, and that rule explicitly mentions to make that action as if it were a different phase of the turn structure to the current one, e.g. ‘That unit can shoot as if it were the Shooting phase’, do rules that are normally used during that phase (in the example this would be the Shooting phase) take effect? Is the same true of Overwatch attacks?
A: With the exception of Stratagems, all rules (e.g. abilities, Warlord Traits, psychic powers etc.) that would apply in a specific phase apply to actions that are taking place ‘as if it were that phase’. However, if a Stratagem specifies that it must be used in a specific phase, then it can only be used in that phase (e.g. you cannot use a Stratagem that says ‘Use this Stratagem in the Shooting phase’ to affect a unit that is Shooting ‘as if it were the Shooting phase’). For the purposes of this FAQ, Overwatch attacks are also considered to be attacks made as if it were your Shooting phase.

How I saw this was;
"Q: do rules that are normally used during that phase (in the example this would be the Shooting phase) take effect? Is the same true of Overwatch attacks"
"A: all rules (e.g. abilities, Warlord Traits, psychic powers etc.) that would apply in a specific phase apply to actions that are taking place ‘as if it were that phase, For the purposes of this FAQ, Overwatch attacks are also considered to be attacks made as if it were your Shooting phase."

Its a horribly long Q&A so I can definitely see it argued each way.

So on the logic that Leman Russ's wont fire Overwatch with Grinding Advance because it's only available in the "following" Shooting Phase does that mean the Cadian "Born Soldiers" Doctrine is ALWAYS available in Overwatch, even if they moved in their Movement Phase?

Their rules says they have access to it in the Shooting Phase if they did not move in the "previous" Movement Phase?

Cadian Movement Phase - Cadians Move
Cadian Shooting Phase - No reroll 1's

Enemy Movement Phase - Cadians aren't moving.
Enemy Charge Phase - Cadians haven't moved in the previous Movement Phase, Overwatch as if it were the Shooting Phase so get reroll 1's

Well, it depends if the born soldiers doctrine is an ability, or not. GW hasnt clarified what counts as an ability. Obviously its everything thats written on a datasheet unter abilities, but is there anything else ? Only abilities which dont mention "friendly" or "enemy" count for both players phases. I would say a doctrine is not an ability, thus, they cant re-roll 1s on overwatch.

Q: If an ability does not state its effects take place in a ‘friendly’
phase or ‘enemy’ phase, does that mean it works in every such
phase (e.g. Mortarion’s Host of Plagues ability, which takes effect
‘at the start of the Fight phase’)?
A: Yes.

I would think its clear that the Regimental Doctrines is considered either an ability or a rule granted to all <REGIMENT> units within a Battle-forged detachment that all share the same <REGIMENT> keyword. They have been specifically written into the Codex with the purpose of permitting units that meet the mentioned criteria additional rules.

The last sentence on the first para of Regimental Doctrines also calls it a "Regimental Doctrines ability".

shakul wrote:

The last sentence on the first para of Regimental Doctrines also calls it a "Regimental Doctrines ability".

Where are you reading this ? I see no sentence on p.132/133 of the AM codex which says "Regimental Doctrines ability".

p132 of the AM Codex, first para of REGIMENTAL DOCTRINES:

"If your army is Battle-forged, all <REGIMENT> units in an ASTRA MILITARUM Detachment (excluding those in Super-heavy Auxiliary Detachments) gain a Regimental Doctrine, so as long as every unit in that Detachment (apart from the exceptions noted opposite) is drawn from the same regiment. The Regimental Doctrine gained depends upon the regiment they are drawn from, as shown opposite. For example, a CADIAN unit with the Regimental Doctrines ability gains the Born Soldiers doctrine."

shakul wrote:
So on the logic that Leman Russ's wont fire Overwatch with Grinding Advance because it's only available in the "following" Shooting Phase does that mean the Cadian "Born Soldiers" Doctrine is ALWAYS available in Overwatch, even if they moved in their Movement Phase?

Their rules says they have access to it in the Shooting Phase if they did not move in the "previous" Movement Phase?

Cadian Movement Phase - Cadians Move
Cadian Shooting Phase - No reroll 1's

Enemy Movement Phase - Cadians aren't moving.
Enemy Charge Phase - Cadians haven't moved in the previous Movement Phase, Overwatch as if it were the Shooting Phase so get reroll 1's

Yes, the Cadian "Born Soldiers" Doctrine is always available in Overwatch.

shakul wrote:
p132 of the AM Codex, first para of REGIMENTAL DOCTRINES:

"If your army is Battle-forged, all <REGIMENT> units in an ASTRA MILITARUM Detachment (excluding those in Super-heavy Auxiliary Detachments) gain a Regimental Doctrine, so as long as every unit in that Detachment (apart from the exceptions noted opposite) is drawn from the same regiment. The Regimental Doctrine gained depends upon the regiment they are drawn from, as shown opposite. For example, a CADIAN unit with the Regimental Doctrines ability gains the Born Soldiers doctrine."

Ok, i missed that. Then yes, born soldiers works in overwatch.

Cadians get to re-roll 1s during Overwatch unless they somehow move during the opponents Movement phase. Meaning you can move in your own Movement phase and still re-roll 1s in Overwatch. This is RAW from the previous FAQ combining with the new FAQ since the Cadian doctrine never states whose Movement phase triggers the ability it just says PREVIOUS Movement phase which in this case would be your opponents.

The Grinding Advance situation is harder know. It’s easy to see the argument for both sides but I’m leaning more towards it’s not allowed during Overwatch. Hopefully GW doesn’t make us wait till the next FAQ to tell us correctly.

Would for sure ask your TO if you plan to run any tanks in a tournament how they are playing that rule....

Leman Russ GA ability!
Condition: "movement = half move characteristic"
Duration: "Following Shooting Phase."

The question is how one views the duration meaning.

From the way GW typical handles persistent effects like this tend to apply until your next turn. As conditions are triggered on a turn basis, unless otherwise stated.

Movement Phase
Check Model movement phase = true/false
if true GA applies in the following shooting phase(s).
Shooting Phase
Double Shoot
End your player turn

Opponents Turn
They declare charge
Overwatch
It's now a following shooting phase abilities in effect apply.
Double Shoot
Resolve turn
End of their turn

You Turn
Movement Phase
Check repeats...

ThatMG wrote:
Leman Russ GA ability!
Condition: "movement = half move characteristic"
Duration: "Following Shooting Phase."

The question is how one views the duration meaning.

From the way GW typical handles persistent effects like this tend to apply until your next turn. As conditions are triggered on a turn basis, unless otherwise stated.

Movement Phase
Check Model movement phase = true/false
if true GA applies in the following shooting phase(s).
Shooting Phase
Double Shoot
End your player turn

Opponents Turn
They declare charge
Overwatch
It's now a following shooting phase abilities in effect apply.
Double Shoot
Resolve turn
End of their turn

You Turn
Movement Phase
Check repeats...

This is not how it works. It says Following Phase. not phases, rest of turn or until your next movement phase. It is really clear it only works on the following shooting phase.

TLDR: English RAW
Following phase has no time limit!
What you are suggesting is RAI
Until the end of the next Shooting Phase.

It's simple RAW
Is your shooting phase a following shooting phase = yes
is your Overwatch a following shooting phase = yes
ergo both works. You don't need the "s".

There’s no possible correct way to parse Grinding Advance to make it work for Overwatch. None. It’s clearly for the tank’s own Movement Phase and the directly following Shooting Phase. Anything else is reaching and stretching rules to try and glean advantage that is not there.

ThatMG wrote:

Spoiler:

Dadavester wrote:

ThatMG wrote:
Leman Russ GA ability!
Condition: "movement = half move characteristic"
Duration: "Following Shooting Phase."

The question is how one views the duration meaning.

From the way GW typical handles persistent effects like this tend to apply until your next turn. As conditions are triggered on a turn basis, unless otherwise stated.

Movement Phase
Check Model movement phase = true/false
if true GA applies in the following shooting phase(s).
Shooting Phase
Double Shoot
End your player turn

Opponents Turn
They declare charge
Overwatch
It's now a following shooting phase abilities in effect apply.
Double Shoot
Resolve turn
End of their turn

You Turn
Movement Phase
Check repeats...

This is not how it works. It says Following Phase. not phases, rest of turn or until your next movement phase. It is really clear it only works on the following shooting phase.

TLDR: English RAW
Following phase has no time limit!
What you are suggesting is RAI
Until the end of the next Shooting Phase.


It's simple RAW
Is your shooting phase a following shooting phase = yes
is your Overwatch a following shooting phase = yes
ergo both works. You don't need the "s".

So, if i understand correctly, you are saying it works in Overwatch because there is no time limit attached to the rule?

The word following means 'next' in this context. If you argue it doesn't then logically a Leman Russ can fire its turret weapon twice all game as long it moves half in its first movement phase, as each phase is following that first movement phase. so in your opinion can it do that?

ThatMG wrote:



TLDR: English RAW
Following phase has no time limit!
What you are suggesting is RAI
Until the end of the next Shooting Phase.

It's simple RAW
Is your shooting phase a following shooting phase = yes
is your Overwatch a following shooting phase = yes
ergo both works. You don't need the "s".

You are incorrect here. "Following phase" does have a time limit, which is the end of that phase. After that you've passed from the following phase to subsequent phases.

In Overwatch, is shooting thefollowing shooting phase?
No, you already had that shooting phase. This is a shooting phase taking place after the following shooting phase.

It's like Tom Baker in the Doctor Who episode Robot. "You might be A Doctor, but I'm THE Doctor. The definite article, you might say."


Note that they didn't say it affects your shooting until your next movement phase.

@ all Nah "Following Phase" means any phase to infinite not next phase.

As any single shooting phase after GA triggers is a "following phase." (As in the literal definition is that it comes after)
it does not say the next phase. What is how you are interpreting it as. I agree that the INTENT is for your next shooting phase. However the badly worded rules allow an unlimited time because every shooting phase after your movement phase is "technically is a following phase." Nor does it say "directly." This is why the say sometimes say "immediately." In various rules.

It doesn't say "*a* following Shooting Phase". It says "*the* following Shooting Phase". If you wanna be a stickler for a strict interpretation, then you have to do it right. In this case, because it says "the following Shooting Phase" you are, in fact, limited to the very next one and not an infinite amount of following phases.

ThatMG wrote:
@ all Nah "Following Phase" means any phase to infinite not next phase.

As any single shooting phase after GA triggers is a "following phase." (As in the literal definition is that it comes after)
it does not say the next phase. What is how you are interpreting it as. I agree that the INTENT is for your next shooting phase. However the badly worded rules allow an unlimited time because every shooting phase after your movement phase is "technically is a following phase." Nor does it say "directly." This is why the say sometimes say "immediately." In various rules.

The wording is “in the following Shooting Phase”. Definite article. Your parsing of English is wrong here. This means “the next Shooting Phase”. Not a later one. Just the next one. Your interpretation isn’t an interpretation, it’s just you reading it wrong, sorry.

ThatMG wrote:
@ all Nah "Following Phase" means any phase to infinite not next phase.

As any single shooting phase after GA triggers is a "following phase." (As in the literal definition is that it comes after)
it does not say the next phase. What is how you are interpreting it as. I agree that the INTENT is for your next shooting phase. However the badly worded rules allow an unlimited time because every shooting phase after your movement phase is "technically is a following phase." Nor does it say "directly." This is why the say sometimes say "immediately." In various rules.

Take words out of context. On basis of incomplete sentence keep insisting on incorrect interpretation of rule. Argue in circles because on internet nobody ever admits to being wrong.

Pretty much sums up YMDC at the moment.

"the following shooting phase" is singular, there is only one such. etc. etc. So the answer to the question of grinding advance in overwatch is that it does not apply.

At this point ThatMG clearly has got be a troll.
No-one can really be that much of a TFG to think you can just cherry pick words from a sentence without context and say that is the rule.

Ice_can wrote:
At this point ThatMG clearly has got be a troll.
No-one can really be that much of a TFG to think you can just cherry pick words from a sentence without context and say that is the rule.

But, looking at your sentence and picking words from it I can get "One can just cherry pick words from a sentence and say that is the rule"

But, as I pointed out and others have since, we are dealing with "THE following shooting phase, not just A following shooting phase." That would be the normal shooting phase coming after the pyschic phase coming after movement phase. Overwatch is not "THE" following shooting phase.

Ice_can wrote:
At this point ThatMG clearly has got be a troll.
No-one can really be that much of a TFG to think you can just cherry pick words from a sentence without context and say that is the rule.

I push heavy RAW stance in debates about rules, that doesn't mean anything when playing a game.

After rereading peoples statements I can see my mistake "the following shooting phase" is not overwatch.