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2019/05/01 20:29:01
Subject: FOR THE DARK GODS! [Chaos Icons, stratagems and Word Bearers]
A few of the big remaining issues with the chaos superfaction (and CSM in particular) is just how...irrelevant your choice of god is for many units.
The difference is most often summed as a single stratagem, that does not even effect all units (and even of the ones it does, often only a handful matter), and unlocking a few legions/renegades.
An "undivided" army has pre-scripted god choices for different units, and then you have vehicles who honestly do not care as for except daemon interaction of daemon engines, there is literally NOTHING in the game that cares what god they serve. not even any of the god-specific stratagems, as none can target them.
The icons, who are supposed to be a source of differentiation, also fail at this, as only a handful of units can take one, and fewer still care about most of them-they hardly come into play.
When was the last time you saw ANY icon other than Wrath on bezerkers? and even Wrath is a bit ifffy with how some of your guys gets extra charge, and some wont. (for example, all characters.)
And lastly, the Word Bearers, who have the single most insulting trait in the game. basically ATSKNF, so their CSM could truly be loyalists -1, rather than a cool identity of their own.
So, this here is a slight overhaul, to add more "godly flavor" to CSM, by making the choice of god MATTER for all units, To reduce the number of obvious choices, and to give a price
And with word bearers changing to both be of value, and to properly represent their deeper connection to the ruinous forces, supplementing the icon changes to be the best "standard bearers" of chaos.
Chaos icons
Spoiler:
All chaos icons cost 15, and have the following new effects:
Icon of Wrath-KHORNE units only-You can re-roll charge rolls for KHORNE HERETIC ASTARTES units within 6" of an Icon of Wrath, included the bearer.
Icon of Flame-TZEENTCH units only-You may re-roll wound rolls of 1 for TZEENTCH HERETIC ASTARTES units withing 6" of an Icon of Flame, included the bearer, for with any weapon that has "fire", "flame", "inferno" or "melta" in it's name.
Icon of Despair-NURGLE units only-If a unit has any models slain by NURGLE HERETIC ASTARTES units within 6" on an Icon of Despair, included the bearer, the unit must subtract 1 from its Leadership for the rest of the turn. This modifier can stack up to three times.
Icon of Excess-SLAANESH units only-Whenever you roll a natural "6" on any dice roll for a SLAANESH HERETIC ASTARTES unit within 6" of an Icon of Excess, included the bearer, you may add 1 to the result of the roll.
Icon of Vengeance-Cannot be taken by KHORNE, TZEENTCH, NURGLE or SLAANESH units-Add 1 to the Leadership of all models in HERETIC ASTARTES units that are not KHORNE, TZEENTCH, NURGLE or SLAANESH within 6" of an Icon of vengeance including the bearer. In addition the Death to the False Emperor ability of these units takes effect on any hit rolls of 5+, rather than 6+.
As auras, you are never stuck with your characters being left out, and your "line" units can provide an actual supporting backbone to your heavy hitters. given that they are now all support elements rather than offensive ones
Each gets its own flavor, its own merit play-style. Khorne wants to charge in, Tzeentch provide the raw destructive power of fire, Nurgle is in for a war of attrition and destroying the will to fight and Slaanesh just takes things too far.
And if you know you are up against imperials, an aura of 5+ DttFE can certainly be attractive.
There are intentionally not legion-locked (as if, you can effect any legion and not just your own) to give a nod to having value in a single god following, even if coming from several legions/renegades.
The new Icon of Excess is the one I have most doubts about. the effect is SO HARD to quantify. I simply have no idea if its too strong, or too weak. it touches so many things, but all of them in a rather weak manner. more likely to super-smite, advance a tiny bit more, charge a tiny bit more, have a chance to save a marine from a plasma shot, 7 damage lascannon shot, etc. many minor effects that can in theory pile up to be oppressive. on the flip side, it gets to be the most flavorful and interesting to watch in action.
Besides, the improved DttFE really belonged to Vengeance, not Excess.
Icon of Flame covers the least units, but he really packs a punch when its relevant. especially with rubric marines, who are the biggest benefactors
The Icon of Despair pushes MSU a bit too much for my liking, but it was hard to make it a "supportive" aura while keeping the aspect of despair.
Wrath was easy, just aura-fy the existing ability. it was the only one people actually used.
Stratagems
Spoiler:
Warpflame Gargoyles-1CP-Use this Stratafem at the start of any Fight phase. Pick a TZEENTCH HERETIC ASTARTES VEHICLE from your army (but not a HELBRUTE or Heldrake) and roll D6 for each unit (friend or foe) within 3" of it, substracting 2 from the roll if the unit being rolled for is a CHARACTER or VEHICLE. on a 4+, the unit being rolled for suffers D3 mortal wounds. (basically a TS transfer. they USED to be a CSM thing.)
Battle Engine-1CP-Use this Stratagem at the start of the Shooting phase. pick a KHORNE HERETIC ASTARTES VEHICLE from your army that is within 1" of an enemy unit. That unit may shoot normally, but may only target units that are within 1" of it.
Repugnent Reconstruction-1CP-Use this Stratagem at the start of any turn. Pick a NURGLE HERETIC ASTARDES VEHICLE model from your army. That model regains D3 lost wounds.
Repugnent Reconstruction-1CP-Use this Stratagem at the start of any turn. Pick a DEATH GUARD VEHICLE model from your army. That model regains D3 lost wounds.
Endless Cacophony-3CP-<no change>.
Overclocked Engines-1CP-Use this stratagem before advancing with a SLAANESH HERETIC ASTARTES VEHICLE. (other than a HELBRUTE or a vehicle that can Fly). Add an additional D6 for that vehicle's Move characteristic for that Movement phase.
So, a mandatory fix for the overtuned cacophony. I have no idea how they justify double shooting at 2CP when double fight is at 3CP.
Different flavors of god-specific vehicle tricks you can pull off, making vehicle mark choice matter once more, and make different god armies act rather differently.
A Khorne tank is not completely shut down by locking it in CC, while a Tzeench one may punish you for it, Nurgle's just like an infection just comes back if not properly taken down, as it can repair itself, and the Slaaneshi are more mobile that any.
With these vehicle mark choices should become more relevant. not 100% so, but more than now.
Word Bearers
Spoiler:
Legion Trait-Heralds of the Ruinus Powers-Increases the range of any aura abilities on the datasheet and any Chaos Icon or Prayers made by units with this trait by 3". (replaces old trait)
Warlord Trait-The voice of Lorgar-Increase the range of any aura abilities on your Warlord's datasheet and any Prayers he makes by an additional 3". (replaces old trait)
With these the Word Bearers gets the affinity for map control. their aura's extend far, and their warlord's aura extends VERY far. thus, they can manintain looser formations and still
Their Dark Apostals are, as they should be, a notch beyond anyone else, and a warlod Apostal would be able to provide a massive blanket of support to any playstyle.
While this set of traits do not offer any new or uniue options like many traits do, what it does is refine the core of CMS support options, especially those added here. they can maintain the same level of mutual support at greater distances and without having to compromise as much on board positioning. they can be, quite literally, everywhere.
Comments?
The three rule groups are meant to be taken together, but can be taken individually as well.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
2019/05/01 20:48:11
Subject: FOR THE DARK GODS! [Chaos Icons, stratagems and Word Bearers]
I like the sound of it all, especially the Word Bearers stuff. I wouldn't mind seeing some detachment scale, or even army scales rewards for being mono-god either, and perhaps penalty for mixing.
Something like:
1) Detachments that are all the same Mark (or all unmarked) generate an additional CP.
2) If all your detachments are all the same Mark (or all unmarked), you get +3 CP.
This would help let people do more fluffy lists without being penalized.
Always 1 on the crazed roll.
2019/05/03 03:19:16
Subject: FOR THE DARK GODS! [Chaos Icons, stratagems and Word Bearers]
ICONS
I feel like Nurgle kind of lost out. As an aeldari player, I can potentially stack tons of Leadership debuffs. I usually don't because the points cost and unit placement required to do so tends to be cost inefficient and gives me diminishing returns. Plus, my opponent can just spend 2CP to shut down the gimmick if I debuff Ld enough on an expensive enough unit for it to matter.
So with that in mind, maybe just make it a "roll 2d6 and take the highest result" aura with a nice, fat range? It makes it useful and low cost enough to sprinkle into your army and make a difference here and there rather than encouraging you to glob a bunch of units into one spot.
I really like the sound of the Slaaneshi icon. It took me a second to wrap my brain around, but doing things just a little bit better when you're already doing them well is very flavorful. Sure, your lascannon havocs might do an extra wound or two to a vehicle, but at that point, they're already doing at least 12 damage. Doing a couple more points here and there probably won't make that big a difference. But it will *feel* really good when you do it. To clarify, does the excess icon effectively let you make a 7+ armor save resulting from AP? Like an AP-4 weapon wounding a 3+ armor chaos marine?
STRATAGEMS
These could already probably work on hellbrutes and helldrakes without breaking anything.
Battle Engine should *maybe* be 2CP given that shooting stuff engaged in melee with you effectively shuts down a lot of counterplay where vehicles are concerned. I'm picturing units charging one of those shooty forge world dreads or a decimator, for instance.
Endless Cacophany can probably be 2CP given that it doesn't seem to be breaking the game as-is and given that most CSM vehicles don't really put out significantly more dakka than CSM infantry. If oblits and havocs can double tap, predators probably can too. I may be overlooking something here.
WORD BEARERS STUFF
I like what you've got here but also kind of miss the summoning angle. Maybe their legion-specific strat could let them summon on the move or something?
ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
2019/05/03 06:33:51
Subject: FOR THE DARK GODS! [Chaos Icons, stratagems and Word Bearers]
I agree that the nurgle icon is meh, but as said, I couldnt find a way to make it "despair" while keeping it a positive buff.
The icon of excess is indeed meant to work that way. it has so many goofy interactions when you look down at it.
The hellbrute/heldrake limitation on the stratagems is merely to comply to existing warpflame gargoyls in the TS codex.
Battle engine, perhaps you are correct there. 2CP is probably still fair enough.
Endless Cacophany, given its a staple of CSM currently, and everyone makes every single shooty unit in their army slaanesh just for this one stratagem-I'd argue its current 2CP is just too good. especially as shown that 3CP stratagems to fight twice are still considered very good.
Word bearers, I have made no replacement stratagem, they already have a summoning stratagem (reroll any number of dice and cant "peril", basically its a reliable and safe summon.)
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
2019/05/03 07:28:02
Subject: FOR THE DARK GODS! [Chaos Icons, stratagems and Word Bearers]
BoomWolf wrote: I agree that the nurgle icon is meh, but as said, I couldnt find a way to make it "despair" while keeping it a positive buff.
The icon of excess is indeed meant to work that way. it has so many goofy interactions when you look down at it.
The hellbrute/heldrake limitation on the stratagems is merely to comply to existing warpflame gargoyls in the TS codex.
Battle engine, perhaps you are correct there. 2CP is probably still fair enough.
Endless Cacophany, given its a staple of CSM currently, and everyone makes every single shooty unit in their army slaanesh just for this one stratagem-I'd argue its current 2CP is just too good. especially as shown that 3CP stratagems to fight twice are still considered very good.
Word bearers, I have made no replacement stratagem, they already have a summoning stratagem (reroll any number of dice and cant "peril", basically its a reliable and safe summon.)
I think the better fix to Endless Cacophony is to make it Noise Marines only, but cost 1CP. Perhaps even Sonic Weapon only. Then introduce another general strat that provides a shooting buff. Perhaps re-roll 1's to wound for 1CP without a God restriction.
Always 1 on the crazed roll.
2019/05/03 07:34:27
Subject: FOR THE DARK GODS! [Chaos Icons, stratagems and Word Bearers]
That's probably a bit too specific for a Slaanesh stratagem though.
Had sonic weaponry been wider in availability, maybe. but turning a god-specific stratagem into what is practically a unit-specific stratagem just means you need to make a new Slaanesh stratagem.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
2019/05/03 07:59:11
Subject: FOR THE DARK GODS! [Chaos Icons, stratagems and Word Bearers]
BoomWolf wrote: That's probably a bit too specific for a Slaanesh stratagem though.
Had sonic weaponry been wider in availability, maybe. but turning a god-specific stratagem into what is practically a unit-specific stratagem just means you need to make a new Slaanesh stratagem.
Yep, that's exactly what I'm suggesting that we do. It's too strong a strat to apply to the number of units it does, and makes the optimal unit setup too clear which is bad for army variety. Better to shove it off somewhere that it can be cool and thematic but not break things, and replace it with something a bit less polarizing but still good.
Always 1 on the crazed roll.
2019/05/03 16:29:06
Subject: FOR THE DARK GODS! [Chaos Icons, stratagems and Word Bearers]
But that would be equivilant of just having no stratagem for slaanesh.
Its bad enough that the tzeentch one is limited to merely psykers, but what you are suggesting is only 1 unit in the entire codex.
The khorne and slaanesh are not limited in such way, why should slaanesh be?
Its not a good answer to the current scenario of it being too good, and the simple solution is simply increasing the cost.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
2019/05/03 17:23:06
Subject: FOR THE DARK GODS! [Chaos Icons, stratagems and Word Bearers]
BoomWolf wrote: But that would be equivilant of just having no stratagem for slaanesh.
Its bad enough that the tzeentch one is limited to merely psykers, but what you are suggesting is only 1 unit in the entire codex.
The khorne and slaanesh are not limited in such way, why should slaanesh be?
Its not a good answer to the current scenario of it being too good, and the simple solution is simply increasing the cost.
Slaanesh can get something else. This strat is currently causing internal balance problems because its so much better than the alternatives. Making it 3CP doesn't make it less mandatory, it just limits what else you're going to do instead. A weaker, but more accessible shooting buff available to everyone at a cheaper cost reduces the polarization. Giving the current version to just noise marines (a unit it is useful but not broken on) is better than removing it at all. You are correct that Slaanesh would then need a new strat of its own. I don't have any particular idea for one off the top of my head, but that's not really the point. The point is to not have chaos list building be so polarized between the different gods.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
