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Designed a couple of army lists, one for my main faction, Dark Elves and the other for Vampire Counts (who I am fairly unfamiliar with)
I'm considering using the DE list in a competitive/Semi-competitive series of games and hence I've adopted a more skirmishy, points-denial build style which I'm familiar with. The VC list, on the other hand, is more for fun and to try something creative. Not sure how well it would work, any feedback is appreciated!

DE: 2500

Lords:
- Supreme Sorceress: Lv 4 (Lore of Shadow), Dark Pegasus, Cloak of Twilight: 320

Hero’s:
- Sorceress: Lv 2 (Lore of Dark Magic), Dispel Scroll, Tome of Furion, Dark Steed: 175
- Khainite Assassin: Dark Venom, Dragonbane Gem: 115
- Khainite Assassin: Dark Venom, Potion of Strength: 130

Core:
- 5 Dark Riders: Shields, Repeater Crossbows: 100
- 5 Dark Riders: Shields, Repeater Crossbows: 100
- 5 Dark Riders: Shields, Repeater Crossbows: 100
- 5 Dark Riders: Shields, Repeater Crossbows: 100
- 10 Darkshards: Musician, Standard Bearer, Shields: 150
- 10 Darkshards: Musician, Standard Bearer, Shields: 150

Special:
- 10 Shades: Light Armour, Standard Bearer: 180
- 10 Shades: Light Armour, Standard Bearer: 180
- 10 Shades: Light Armour, Standard Bearer, Great Weapons: 200
- 10 Shades: Light Armour, Standard Bearer, Great Weapons: 200
- Scourgerunner Chariot: 150
- Scourgerunner Chariot: 150

I like how sticky this list is, there's nothing that really costs very much and it can fulfil a variety of roles with raw firepower. It doesn't quite have the anti-armour power or sniping potential of my Wood Elf list but it has far more shots and a decent punch in close combat - Shades with GW's are swinging at I5 S5. The Scourgerunners are primarily there for anti-monster/armour, I chose them over reaper boltthrowers as I have few ways to protect them and any comp army worth its salt can pressure them hard. Also they can be used to punished ranked units with their penetrating shots down the flanks and to run down enemy skirmishers on the charge. My general is hopefully going to be getting Withering to debuff whatever unit needs deleting, shes almost impossible to catch on her mount and extremely resilient. The assassins add an extra bit of combat punch/charge dissuasion + ranged killing blow shots. The Lv 2 is mainly there as a blaster with Doombolt but with her tome she can also select the spells I need most depending on my opponent. Finally the Darkshards, I'm not really a fan and I'd prefer to not have them but I didn't want to be that guy who fills his mandatory core with Dark Riders, plus they still provide a stable platform of fire and a few extra standards in case I draw Blood & Glory.

I'm actually toying with the idea of dropping a unit of shades with Gw's + the assassin with potion and adding 20 Black Guard; as I've learned from my Wood Elves, having a rock-solid combat block that never breaks is incredibly useful. Also when charged with Okhams they are absolutely brutal.


Vampire Counts: 2500

Lords:
- Vampire Lord: Lv 1 (Lore of Vampires), Hellsteed, Lance, Enchanted Shield, Red Fury, Quickblood, Armour of Destiny

Hero’s:
- Necromancer: Lv 2 (Lore of Vampires)
- Necromancer: Lv 2 (Lore of Vampires)
- Necromancer: Lv 2 (Lore of Vampires), Book of Arkhan
- Vampire: Lv 1 (Lore of Shadows), Hellsteed, Armour of Fortune, Shield, Lance, Red Fury

Core:
- 22 Zombies: Standard Bearer, Musician
- 20 Zombies: Standard Bearer, Musician
- 20 Zombies: Standard Bearer, Musician
- 20 Zombies: Standard Bearer, Musician
- 20 Dire Wolves: Doom Wolf
- 20 Dire Wolves: Doom Wolf

Special:
- 10 Black Knights: Command, Barding, Lances
- 10 Black Knights: Command, Barding, Lances
- 6 Vargheists: Vargoyle

Not so sure about this list, I would really like to have 8 Vargheist's ideally but I'm very tight on points. Theres a lack of synergy here I feel, half my list is fast and half is slow. That being said, the zombies can screen out my deathstar while the necro's grow. I'll keep the Gheists, general and vampire hidden behind the lines and castle out my opponents. If they don't rush my zombie blocks will swell to massive sizes and if they overextend I can leap on the mistake, much like a pegstar list. I feel like 2 units of 10 black knights with this many Nehek's will be incredibly hard to remove and when my general does push forwards the dogs and knights can match his pace and support while their long flanks will ensure they are still getting neheks from behind. My mini-blender can always bounce back to assist the necro's if they do get into trouble with smoke and mirrors. I also like the point efficiency of saving on buying magic swords by running faster vamps with lances instead

Let me know what you think!



Automatically Appended Next Post:
and yes, I am aware that it would be far more competitive to drop the assassins and run 2 units of doomfire warlocks, but wheres the fun in that?

In the DE list it might be worth it to combine the crossbows into 1 unit with the Flaming banner. Could really help if you run into any regen or flammable lists.

 Mr. S Baldrick wrote:
In the DE list it might be worth it to combine the crossbows into 1 unit with the Flaming banner. Could really help if you run into any regen or flammable lists.

The banners a good shout actually, sloppy of me to have forgotten it considering the list currently has no access to flaming attacks. That being said, I'm not keen to have such a large, static unit. My plan was to deploy the darkshards spread out so as to pull the opponent's army apart to reach them, a large static block is a lot of points to throw away

Do you have these armies yet? they both rely on lots of a handful of units, so either they are what you have got, your collections are vast on a per faction basis or you are building paper lists.

Your DE list is especially unusual, Dark Rider spam is common and 20 Dark Riders is not a lot really. But 40 Shades, that is a lot.
Do you have any Cold one chariots, cold one knights, corsairs, heavy infantry, witch elves?

As for the Vampire army, I sort of like it, sort of. You are set up for massed Nehek which bast synergises with mulitple minimum zombies.
Your blender should have a magic sword, not a lance.
For multiple low level casters I would take the Mortis Engine with tome, you can reliably 1 dice cast then.

Deep block Dire Wolves are not a common sight but they do work, especially as they bus up and the rear ranks shouldnt be too far from the necromancers walking with the zombies.

You dont need Vargeists with this list, though 3-4 will do and are nice to get some variety. However you do need Spirit Hosts, your army is in two halves a fast half and a slow half, you will have exposed flanks, a pair or Spirit hosts will go a long way to protect those flanks. Stopping chaff altogether and holding up serious threats for one turn.

You do know your Black Knights are infantry? Vampire armies win on attrition, your black knights are your only combat blocks so you will be forced to use them in static combats. After the charge you can expect to be stuck in combats for a while, you have enough Nehek to survive this, but I would consider blocks of 15 Knights to be sure. Blenders mitigate combat losses, but you can have a bad turn and crumble away quickly. You need excess troops to absorb this. Three ranks of Black Knights, used as static line troops (plus hopefully one charge) should be able to hold long term. Enemy will have steadfast but your own losses to crumble should be limited.

Big problem here are the zombies, they simply dont synergise with Black Knights, the former absorb massive crumble shocks, that latter armour save them away. If you mix the two in larger combats an opponent can focus on zombie killing forcing extra crumble on your expensive knights. You will get this problem also with Dire Wolves. Hence why Spirit Hosts are better flank support as they dont give away any combat res against most opponents. Skeletons get less Nehek but need less Nehek, they get a 5+/6++ parry and avoid needing 5+ to hit against most opponents. They generate far less crumble that kills your knights. Even so skeletons are better as combat partners with Grave Guard or Crypt Horrors, as they can still absorb the crumble the skeletons generate. Four minimum zombie blocks s are good bunker seeds to grow over time, but you want to keep them seperate and in which case you have to ask yourself why you have therm to begin with.
Mobile vampire counts doesnt wiork as well as it looks on paper. It all comes down to an attritional grind in the end, mobility only gives you more say as to where. But where is less important beyond making sure your armies are in the bubbles of your casters, which you can achieve and best guarantee with a static line. You will need come mobility to run down gun lines but you simply cannot afford to throw the best part of your army forwards unless you go all the way and mount your necromancers. Your core will be the same as here, ajnd is 'correct' or better put 'least wrong' for a mobile army, large wolf blocks plus throw in zeds. Buy you will need to full mounts your casters and take more mobility. Hexwraiths are key here, and the T-bat would be nice. Though the Mortis Engine, tome and multiple level 1's is still a good choice, especially if you are advancing with the Mortis Engine. Getting a Vanhels move on it is crucial to keeping your advance on schedule.
Vampire Counts needs synergy, and that is harder to coordinate the faster you move because movement rates are widely disparate in this army. If you are not careful your army can defeat itself through bad positioning.

 Orlanth wrote:
Do you have these armies yet? they both rely on lots of a handful of units, so either they are what you have got, your collections are vast on a per faction basis or you are building paper lists.

Your DE list is especially unusual, Dark Rider spam is common and 20 Dark Riders is not a lot really. But 40 Shades, that is a lot.
Do you have any Cold one chariots, cold one knights, corsairs, heavy infantry, witch elves?

Thanks for the reply.
I have around 10-12k Points of Elves all considered, I main Dark Elves and have since the start of 7th edition. I also collect Wood Elves and cherry pick my favourite High Elf units for display, which happen to be Alith Anar and his Shadow Warriors. Is 40 Shades strange? Yes. I build strange lists because I like trying new things. I've played with Cauldron-Witch Blobs, 30-Man Executioners, Doomfire Warlocks, 4 Bolt Throwers + all Dark Riders etc etc but everyone uses them. Wheres the fun in rinse and repeat strategies/builds for 6 years? Tbh my favourite list so far is the Chillblade+Twilight Cloak Dreadlord and Dark Venom Assassin nuke using Savage Beast of Horros.

 Orlanth wrote:

As for the Vampire army, I sort of like it, sort of. You are set up for massed Nehek which bast synergises with mulitple minimum zombies.
Your blender should have a magic sword, not a lance.
For multiple low level casters I would take the Mortis Engine with tome, you can reliably 1 dice cast then.

I know...I just hate the mortis engine so much. They add so much but I'm just not a fan. I was toying with the idea of trying an ethereal build with 5++ from double engine though.
I realise now I have a lack of magical attacks in this list which is sloppy of me so I agree. In theory a lance could be a nice point save on mini-blenders but I agree on a main blender a sword is important.

 Orlanth wrote:

Deep block Dire Wolves are not a common sight but they do work, especially as they bus up and the rear ranks shouldnt be too far from the necromancers walking with the zombies.

You dont need Vargeists with this list, though 3-4 will do and are nice to get some variety. However you do need Spirit Hosts, your army is in two halves a fast half and a slow half, you will have exposed flanks, a pair or Spirit hosts will go a long way to protect those flanks. Stopping chaff altogether and holding up serious threats for one turn.

Yes, tbh I wanted to try them after you mentioned it in my WE's thread.
The original idea was to use a big Vargheist unit as the main punch, clearly that idea became muddled and eventually died off all together due to a lack of points. On second thoughts the 6 man unit doesnt really have a place here.

 Orlanth wrote:

You do know your Black Knights are infantry? Vampire armies win on attrition, your black knights are your only combat blocks so you will be forced to use them in static combats. After the charge you can expect to be stuck in combats for a while, you have enough Nehek to survive this, but I would consider blocks of 15 Knights to be sure. Blenders mitigate combat losses, but you can have a bad turn and crumble away quickly. You need excess troops to absorb this. Three ranks of Black Knights, used as static line troops (plus hopefully one charge) should be able to hold long term. Enemy will have steadfast but your own losses to crumble should be limited.

Big problem here are the zombies, they simply dont synergise with Black Knights, the former absorb massive crumble shocks, that latter armour save them away. If you mix the two in larger combats an opponent can focus on zombie killing forcing extra crumble on your expensive knights. You will get this problem also with Dire Wolves. Hence why Spirit Hosts are better flank support as they dont give away any combat res against most opponents. Skeletons get less Nehek but need less Nehek, they get a 5+/6++ parry and avoid needing 5+ to hit against most opponents. They generate far less crumble that kills your knights. Even so skeletons are better as combat partners with Grave Guard or Crypt Horrors, as they can still absorb the crumble the skeletons generate. Four minimum zombie blocks s are good bunker seeds to grow over time, but you want to keep them seperate and in which case you have to ask yourself why you have therm to begin with.
Mobile vampire counts doesnt wiork as well as it looks on paper. It all comes down to an attritional grind in the end, mobility only gives you more say as to where. But where is less important beyond making sure your armies are in the bubbles of your casters, which you can achieve and best guarantee with a static line. You will need come mobility to run down gun lines but you simply cannot afford to throw the best part of your army forwards unless you go all the way and mount your necromancers. Your core will be the same as here, ajnd is 'correct' or better put 'least wrong' for a mobile army, large wolf blocks plus throw in zeds. Buy you will need to full mounts your casters and take more mobility. Hexwraiths are key here, and the T-bat would be nice. Though the Mortis Engine, tome and multiple level 1's is still a good choice, especially if you are advancing with the Mortis Engine. Getting a Vanhels move on it is crucial to keeping your advance on schedule.
Vampire Counts needs synergy, and that is harder to coordinate the faster you move because movement rates are widely disparate in this army. If you are not careful your army can defeat itself through bad positioning.

Tbh the idea of 2 resilient and relatively hard hitting cav units had me hooked. As you can probably tell I don't have much of an eye for vampire counts yet, my knowledge of them is largely based around fighting them rather than using. You make some good points, I appreciate the advice

As for my VC collection, I have a fair bit left over from 7th, I have over 200 zombies, 6 crypt horrors and 40+ ogres to proxy in, 6 spirit host, around 100 skeletons, a T-Bat, 5-6 vampires, 30 Ghouls, uncountable dogs/chaos warhounds, 20 Black Knights and around 60 other Knights to proxy in, a corpse cart a coven throne, 1 mortis engine, 2 Varghulfs and 9 Varghiests

Yazima wrote:

Thanks for the reply.

Your welcome, it is nice to be appreciated.

Yazima wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
Do you have these armies yet? they both rely on lots of a handful of units, so either they are what you have got, your collections are vast on a per faction basis or you are building paper lists.
Your DE list is especially unusual, Dark Rider spam is common and 20 Dark Riders is not a lot really. But 40 Shades, that is a lot.
Do you have any Cold one chariots, cold one knights, corsairs, heavy infantry, witch elves?

I have around 10-12k Points of Elves all considered, I main Dark Elves and have since the start of 7th edition.

My guess of the three, it's late in the day for new collections paper lists without a lot of proxy. I have a 4K army of Druchii, its my collect point and my Druchii doesnt exceed characters excepting.

Yazima wrote:

I also collect Wood Elves and cherry pick my favourite High Elf units for display, which happen to be Alith Anar and his Shadow Warriors. Is 40 Shades strange?

Yes 40 Shades is a bit excessive, but in 10K its a proportional contingent, and there is nothing wrong with it. Were we to turn back the clock and you were building I would not recommend a force that big unless you budgeted for a mega-army, as you have, so there you go. I struggle to fit in 10 in a varsity 4K collection.
More to the point massed elite light infantry is win big/lose big dependant on what you are facing and can be unfair. Wood elves get a pass as annoying skirmish is what they do and is what people expect, and they have multiple tools for the job. You are spamming one type of elite unit and can blindside opponents into some very unfun games. Either the opposing list can handle them, or they cannot. Battle will be decided before the troops hit the tabletop. To some extent you get that with Dark Rider lists, but they dont have the same fire volume, and cost a lot more per shot.

Yazima wrote:

Yes. I build strange lists because I like trying new things. I've played with Cauldron-Witch Blobs, 30-Man Executioners, Doomfire Warlocks, 4 Bolt Throwers + all Dark Riders etc etc but everyone uses them. Wheres the fun in rinse and repeat strategies/builds for 6 years? Tbh my favourite list so far is the Chillblade+Twilight Cloak Dreadlord and Dark Venom Assassin nuke using Savage Beast of Horros.

Clearly you mix it up, so if one day your opponents meet the Shade list and it isnt what you normally took then fair play. It might also be good for tournament. Your lists do sound fun.
Ironically I cant field any of those lists you mentioned. I have a small unit of witch elves (couldnt really afford to go all the way with them), chose Black Guard over Executioners (again cost of models played heavily into this), hate Doomfire Warlocks, and while I have exactly 20 Dark Riders and three bolt throwers (5th edition twin ammo bin style), I made two units of ten Dark Riders with full command for aesthetic reasons. Yep, that's doing Druchii wrong but I am unrepentant.

How do you Shade BTW? I use plastic Dark Eldar Wyches and kitbash.

Yazima wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

As for the Vampire army, I sort of like it, sort of. You are set up for massed Nehek which bast synergises with mulitple minimum zombies.
Your blender should have a magic sword, not a lance.
For multiple low level casters I would take the Mortis Engine with tome, you can reliably 1 dice cast then.

I know...I just hate the mortis engine so much. They add so much but I'm just not a fan. I was toying with the idea of trying an ethereal build with 5++ from double engine though.

I understand completely. There are some win button units I detest either in aesthetics or rules or both. Hexwraith and Doomfire Warlocks both hit both categories. From this point on I will look at this from a no-Mortis allowed perspective its useful but not essential.
One thing though, what do you hate about them? If its the model you can make your own. How about tis as a base model:


You could add spirit hosts to this on a chariot base.

Yazima wrote:

I realise now I have a lack of magical attacks in this list which is sloppy of me so I agree. In theory a lance could be a nice point save on mini-blenders but I agree on a main blender a sword is important.

Do you need a blender lord at all? You can do better with multiple mini-blenders. This list wont have double Mortis or Corpse cart, which are the bedrock of mini-blender spam, but you only have two blenders anyway, a mini-blender lists takes a minimum of three to take advantage of the corpse cart and double Mortis. Corpse carts are great for synergy but too slow for this list, your blenders will be out of range to get ASF.
Nevertheless it can be done. The trick is to take several level 1's with red fury, forgo quickblood entirely and rely on natural initiative and use cheap magic swords. On a price point they will have far more damage output than a blender lord. You will have to forgo ward saves but barded steeds heavy armour and shield for a 2+ while not ideal are acceptable for multiple mounted mini blenders.

Yazima wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

Deep block Dire Wolves are not a common sight but they do work, especially as they bus up and the rear ranks shouldn't be too far from the necromancers walking with the zombies.
You dont need Vargeists with this list, though 3-4 will do and are nice to get some variety. However you do need Spirit Hosts, your army is in two halves a fast half and a slow half, you will have exposed flanks, a pair or Spirit hosts will go a long way to protect those flanks. Stopping chaff altogether and holding up serious threats for one turn.

Yes, tbh I wanted to try them after you mentioned it in my WE's thread.
The original idea was to use a big Vargheist unit as the main punch, clearly that idea became muddled and eventually died off all together due to a lack of points. On second thoughts the 6 man unit doesnt really have a place here.

Just as well, big block Vargeists do not work. The problem you have with them is slow recovery from Nehek and missile vulnerability. Their stats are nice but they are naked T4 and well worth shooting. They also fair poorly against characters due to their 40mm bases and poor defensive profile. Thus it is relatively easy to cause damage spikes on them or focus damage on a small frontage of the unit. Vargeists are for bullying missile troops and a flanking damage spike against a foe in close combat. The latter needs some explanation. A small unit of four Vargeists can flank via flying movement easily enough, assuming they were not frenzy baited first - watch for this. You will get a very good damage spike for at least one round of combat which will mitigate a lot of crumble and likely allow you to win outright.

One trick is to hide a blender in a very deep unit of zombies or skeletons, deep enough to break steadfast if you win, then allow the blender and vargeist tag team to ensure you do. You dont need a lot of vargeists for this, only good positioning and to keep the blender alive until ready.
Vampire Counts are all about synergy.

Vargeists work best units of 3-4, some say 4 is optimal in a 2x2 block. I agree but its often hard to model them so they rank up. Certainly ranking up bigger units than that will be a real problem. The wings go everywhere. Large blocks of Crypt Horrors on the other hand, do this. Six is a mimimum and twelve is not excessive.

Yazima wrote:

Tbh the idea of 2 resilient and relatively hard hitting cav units had me hooked. As you can probably tell I don't have much of an eye for vampire counts yet, my knowledge of them is largely based around fighting them rather than using. You make some good points, I appreciate the advice

Its not a bad ideas by any means. And you can get the models from current ranges. I would go with 30-40 Black Knights either two blocks of 15 or 20. As its still a 'gimic' I would only do this if you intend to grow your Vampire Counts army like your Druchii. They are a safe faction to collect. Your only pinch is that you will need lots of mounted Necro and vampire models. Most sold are on foot. Though you can use conversions and maybe buy a box of Blood knights to fuel your vampire contingent.
I am a big fan of mounting characters if I can get away with it to seriously boost the armour save cheaply. Your blood gift and magic item allowance is precious especially for mini blenders, and getting a servicable defence

Now I have to say this: Vampire cavalry lists for 8th work best with double Mortis, but you can do without.

Yazima wrote:

As for my VC collection, I have a fair bit left over from 7th, I have over 200 zombies, 6 crypt horrors and 40+ ogres to proxy in, 6 spirit host, around 100 skeletons, a T-Bat, 5-6 vampires, 30 Ghouls, uncountable dogs/chaos warhounds, 20 Black Knights and around 60 other Knights to proxy in, a corpse cart a coven throne, 1 mortis engine, 2 Varghulfs and 9 Varghiests

OK. You can make some monster lists out of that. I would expand:


This is the first thing to look to do allowing for what you say you already have.

A good start, building your Ghouls to 40, Crypt Horrors tp 9 and double T-Bat. This hits a lot of sweet spots for you. Nine is a good servicable number of Crypt Horrors, the average deployment is eight in a 4x2. I like a 3x3 as you get an extra, unused rank for attrition on a fairly narrow frontage. Its a VERY good army anchor, arguably the best anvil in Warhammer on broad par with Nurgle elite. 40 Ghouls meanwhile are the exact number to build a ghoul horde in a 2K list. This is good as it combines all your core tax into one useful and hard hitting unit. Its pretty much optimum spend, costs 400pts out of 500 required; you could get an extra ten but the common wisdom was to spend that last 100pts of tax on two minimum size zombie blocks as seed for summons.
As for double T-Bat that is the core of the notorious 'screamer' list. You will need to source a 100x150 baee for it though.

Next I would invest in Grave Guard for a wight list. Great weapon Grave Guard are superior, but sword and board is also a worthy choice. I have both in my collection and frequently field them together as hammer and anvil. I would buy three boxes built all great weapons for a 'normal' investment, or go slightly crazier and get double this. My Grave Guard are two units of 25 but in all honesty to max out you need the great weapon grave guard to be bigger than this for an optimal unit. 30 is normal, 35 therefore better, with a 5x5 block of cheaper sword and board as a worthy anvil unit on the side. In terms of theme this also sits nicely with the large numbers of Black Knights you already have. As for those knights, yes I do suggest upping them to 30 total, maybe the full 40 (though that would break most points limits frankly). This will include spares as each unit should include one or two vampires. I think it not unreasonable to suggest you get three sets of Black Knight/Hexwraith models and some Blood Knights for characters, leave gaps for the characters and get some Hexwraiths on the side from the remainder.

This is VERY top heavy but in honesty you will be taking the same core in most games. Your main choice with whether to go for a skeleton core or a ghoul core, with the wolf core restricted to cavalry list builds, and as you might notice there really is only one cavalry list build possible. Meanwhile you do need large and varied specials because you can then focus on different subthemes. Crypt Horror, Grave Guard and Black Knight based builds all require a solid number of the mainstay unit, so a varied Vampire Counts collection will require an investment in lost of Special choice models, far more than the core to support them.

The main draw however is character variety. Have you thought about making bloodline lists, 8th doesnt cover bloodlines and Oldhammer does as does 9th Age. And you can make a Necrarch or Blood Dragon list in 8th from how you focus your character builds. Converting some Blood Knights as a cabal of Blood Dragon characters makes your mounted blender list. Though you can choose to avoid that by using the two mounted vampire models in the T-bat kit.
Necrarchs are the complete opposite and there for when you max-magic up your vamps. You will need to go to ebay for them, but they turn up frequently enough to to cost much, have a number of foot and mounted models and fit a simple and iconic visual theme.
Necromancer lord based armies? Why not. Kemmler models is a good start, and he is one of the more usuable special characters despite not having a ward save. Avoid Krell though.

Finally get these:

I dont recommend this specific set but getting the same models: Grimghast Reapers from ebay from the Soul Wars coreset. This will get you four wraiths, inlcuding one with a bell that you can convert using a spare blade from a Hexwraith model. You could get the boxset of ten but wraiths are HORRIBLY OVERPRICED, and vulnerable. I cant stress enough how you should avoid them. As characters they are great though as you can front infantry units with them, potentially walling off attackers with non magic weapons. That weraith character front on a zombie block is abusive and unwelcome but two wraiths together on the end of a unit will block off two files of attacks mitigating a lot of incoming damage and is not unfair. With a foot vampire in the unit (likely grave guard or skeletons) you have a nice force multiplier to win battles, and the modes look cool. Grimghast Reapers do fit on 20x20mm bases with minimum conversion, you need to bend or trim some tattered robes that is all. They fit in units nicely and look awesome. You will however needs to buy some fishing weights to glue to the underside of the bases though. Some of my wraiths extend forward two base lengths over the front, but all is forgiven because of the visual effect and with a suprisingly few fishing weights clustered on the rear edge of the base counterbalances it perfectly.
You will be glad of wraiths in your infantry units both for visuals and how they play, adding a pair of wraiths changes the dynamic of the unit enormously adding variety to your builds.

 Orlanth wrote:



Yes 40 Shades is a bit excessive, but in 10K its a proportional contingent, and there is nothing wrong with it. Were we to turn back the clock and you were building I would not recommend a force that big unless you budgeted for a mega-army, as you have, so there you go. I struggle to fit in 10 in a varsity 4K collection.
More to the point massed elite light infantry is win big/lose big dependant on what you are facing and can be unfair. Wood elves get a pass as annoying skirmish is what they do and is what people expect, and they have multiple tools for the job. You are spamming one type of elite unit and can blindside opponents into some very unfun games. Either the opposing list can handle them, or they cannot. Battle will be decided before the troops hit the tabletop. To some extent you get that with Dark Rider lists, but they dont have the same fire volume, and cost a lot more per shot.

I generally don't bring kiting builds to friendly games, as you say it makes for very one sided fights which are rarely much fun. They're my go-to comp lists though, they're so hard to fight with anything not directly built to counter.

 Orlanth wrote:

Clearly you mix it up, so if one day your opponents meet the Shade list and it isnt what you normally took then fair play. It might also be good for tournament. Your lists do sound fun.
Ironically I cant field any of those lists you mentioned. I have a small unit of witch elves (couldnt really afford to go all the way with them), chose Black Guard over Executioners (again cost of models played heavily into this), hate Doomfire Warlocks, and while I have exactly 20 Dark Riders and three bolt throwers (5th edition twin ammo bin style), I made two units of ten Dark Riders with full command for aesthetic reasons. Yep, that's doing Druchii wrong but I am unrepentant.

Witch Elves are very fun to play with, not so fun to play against, same with Executioners really. Black Guard rock! Both aesthetically and in functionality, its a shame they have to compete with the superior Executioners. I also hate Doomfires, I like their look but their rules are just ridiculous. Why do they have poisoned attacks? Why do they deserve a better Ward Save than most characters? They are a bizarre unit with bizarre, contradictory fluff.
I'm also not a fan of artillery - unless its mobile like the scourgerunners

 Orlanth wrote:


How do you Shade BTW? I use plastic Dark Eldar Wyches and kitbash.

https://www.ragingheroes.com/collections/fantasy/products/crossbow-women-tr-de-f
These ladies with cloaks modelled on. They're beautiful models but they don't hold paint well and are extremely fragile.

 Orlanth wrote:


I understand completely. There are some win button units I detest either in aesthetics or rules or both. Hexwraith and Doomfire Warlocks both hit both categories. From this point on I will look at this from a no-Mortis allowed perspective its useful but not essential.
One thing though, what do you hate about them? If its the model you can make your own. How about tis as a base model:


You could add spirit hosts to this on a chariot base.

I don't know really. I'm not crazy about the model but thats not the main issue. I just feel like once they're in the list everything else has to be built around it, they become such an important part of the army that they pigeonhole you into certain inclusions. I feel the same way about artillery. I'd only include a mortis engine in a strigoi themed build, something that doesnt interest me at all. I know they have other applications but thats all I associate them with at the moment.

 Orlanth wrote:


Do you need a blender lord at all? You can do better with multiple mini-blenders. This list wont have double Mortis or Corpse cart, which are the bedrock of mini-blender spam, but you only have two blenders anyway, a mini-blender lists takes a minimum of three to take advantage of the corpse cart and double Mortis. Corpse carts are great for synergy but too slow for this list, your blenders will be out of range to get ASF.
Nevertheless it can be done. The trick is to take several level 1's with red fury, forgo quickblood entirely and rely on natural initiative and use cheap magic swords. On a price point they will have far more damage output than a blender lord. You will have to forgo ward saves but barded steeds heavy armour and shield for a 2+ while not ideal are acceptable for multiple mounted mini blenders.

I personally don't like a blender lord, I originally had 2 miniblenders in the list but had the spare points so decided to upgrade. I was actually thinking something along the lines of Vampire: Sword of Swift Slaying, Red Fury, Potion of Strength for one of my miniblenders. Thats rerolls, hitting first with a potential for a S8 damage spike to win those crucial combats, sure he won't have a ward save but I'll be making sure he's 2+ armour and staying away from KB etc units.

 Orlanth wrote:


One trick is to hide a blender in a very deep unit of zombies or skeletons, deep enough to break steadfast if you win, then allow the blender and vargeist tag team to ensure you do. You dont need a lot of vargeists for this, only good positioning and to keep the blender alive until ready.
Vampire Counts are all about synergy.

Thats a really cool tactic, very smart. Doesn't seem like it would work with zombies though? I don't think I've ever seen them win a combat

Yazima wrote:

Witch Elves are very fun to play with, not so fun to play against, same with Executioners really. Black Guard rock! Both aesthetically and in functionality, its a shame they have to compete with the superior Executioners. I also hate Doomfires, I like their look but their rules are just ridiculous. Why do they have poisoned attacks? Why do they deserve a better Ward Save than most characters? They are a bizarre unit with bizarre, contradictory fluff.

Witch elves power is all about the broken augments from the Cauldron. Bikini freaks suddenly become near unkillable. It's just broken. Thankfully witch elves do also have a secondary deployment option, small unit for flanking. Optimal,ly ten with little command, though because I add a full command to just about everything I take fourteen with. Its still fairly efficient and nasty to flank with.
Black Guard are solid and I like the models.
I hate everything about Doomfires, models, fluff, rules, unbalance, total weakness vs one specific faction, people with not sense of fairness who spam them outside a cutthroat tournament.

Yazima wrote:

I'm also not a fan of artillery - unless its mobile like the scourgerunners

Never liked the Scourgerunner but I got a third chariot box cheap and may build one. My main draw to the third boxset is that it gives me two spare cold ones and charioteer who doubles up nicely as a BSB. The scourgerunner crew from the other two boxsets fit nicely as Hydra handlers.

Yazima wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:


How do you Shade BTW? I use plastic Dark Eldar Wyches and kitbash.

https://www.ragingheroes.com/collections/fantasy/products/crossbow-women-tr-de-f
These ladies with cloaks modelled on. They're beautiful models but they don't hold paint well and are extremely fragile.

Ahh Raging Hormones miniatures. They are very hit or miss, and IMHO that unit is a miss. Dont like the helmets. Good choice for Witch elves though, but I went GW anyway.

Yazima wrote:

I don't know really. I'm not crazy about the model but thats not the main issue. I just feel like once they're in the list everything else has to be built around it, they become such an important part of the army that they pigeonhole you into certain inclusions. I feel the same way about artillery. I'd only include a mortis engine in a strigoi themed build, something that doesnt interest me at all. I know they have other applications but thats all I associate them with at the moment. .

I have 0-1 Mortis and 0-1 T-bat as options, its keeps variety and avoids obvious win buttons. Note though my armies are never intended to hardcore or tournament play, and my collections normally are used against each other which enforces balance by omission.

Yazima wrote:

I personally don't like a blender lord, I originally had 2 miniblenders in the list but had the spare points so decided to upgrade. I was actually thinking something along the lines of Vampire: Sword of Swift Slaying, Red Fury, Potion of Strength for one of my miniblenders. Thats rerolls, hitting first with a potential for a S8 damage spike to win those crucial combats, sure he won't have a ward save but I'll be making sure he's 2+ armour and staying away from KB etc units.

Truth be told I don't use one either. Much prefer miniblanders with mortis and Corpse Cart. I have one full blender in my 9th age Blood dragon army (as a Blood Dragon lord is the only way to get red Fury in 9th). In 8th it remains an option, but I don't like spending so much on one model, it means fewer toys. The only way I will spend a lot on a character is if I take Mannfred (because I have got Manfred, so..) or to make a Necrarch spellmaster. Both of which doe more than just roll more attack dice and add variety to the game that is worth paying for every now and then. I also have Kemmler, also for flavour, but stopped before buying Krell. i can only take fluff so far.

Yazima wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:


One trick is to hide a blender in a very deep unit of zombies or skeletons, deep enough to break steadfast if you win, then allow the blender and vargeist tag team to ensure you do. You dont need a lot of vargeists for this, only good positioning and to keep the blender alive until ready.
Vampire Counts are all about synergy.

Thats a really cool tactic, very smart. Doesn't seem like it would work with zombies though? I don't think I've ever seen them win a combat

The zombies still dont win combat. They take casualties, but the idea is that on the turn the vargeists flank charge they and the vampire(s) do more damage than the zombies lose, win, and break steadfast. Doom and Darkness helps but cant be replied upon. You dont need zxombies for this, but you need deep steadfast busdting blocks, that is difficult to do with expensive ghouls or wights.

Yazima wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

Large blocks of Crypt Horrors on the other hand, do this. Six is a mimimum and twelve is not excessive.

I would but the models are sickeningly bad. Have you ever tried running them gutstar-esque alongside a buff Lore? Seems like they would be almost unkillable and put out decent damage. Reminds me somewhat of the Throgg Troll-star Chaos build that used to be meta.

I didnt like them but they grew on me. they rank up ok and you can. I saw the Throggstar once, I saw massed crypt horrors in several armies. It is quite common build. As they are superghouls you can have some variety by adding ghouls to the bases. It looks better that way, it also means they can be used as unit filler in ghoul units also, and look good doing so. Try mixing them up, it looks dynamic.

Yazima wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:


As for double T-Bat that is the core of the notorious 'screamer' list. You will need to source a 100x150 baee for it though.

Triple Bat in my gaming group. I always found it a little overhyped, pop the Death caster and keep your army tight then roll over their mediocre ground troops.

I see them mostly as knight killers, because unless buffed to near ld10 you will still take some casualties on units normally quite hard to damage. Again I personally only have one T-bat.

Yazima wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:


Next I would invest in Grave Guard for a wight list. Great weapon Grave Guard are superior, but sword and board is also a worthy choice. I have both in my collection and frequently field them together as hammer and anvil. I would buy three boxes built all great weapons for a 'normal' investment, or go slightly crazier and get double this. My Grave Guard are two units of 25 but in all honesty to max out you need the great weapon grave guard to be bigger than this for an optimal unit. 30 is normal, 35 therefore better, with a 5x5 block of cheaper sword and board as a worthy anvil unit on the side.

I'm a big fan of Wights in general, except when I'm facing them. I actually find Sword and Board just as intimidating as GW's. Winning combat vs buffed, shielded GG with character support is an absolute nightmare.

Sword and shield Grave Guard are underrated, normally people never build them. Most go for the great weapons because they are better and never even think t build both. S4 with killing blow is goof enough for most tasks, and they can get real ASF through the corpse cart,

 Orlanth wrote:

This is VERY top heavy but in honesty you will be taking the same core in most games. Your main choice with whether to go for a skeleton core or a ghoul core, with the wolf core restricted to cavalry list builds, and as you might notice there really is only one cavalry list build possible. Meanwhile you do need large and varied specials because you can then focus on different subthemes. Crypt Horror, Grave Guard and Black Knight based builds all require a solid number of the mainstay unit, so a varied Vampire Counts collection will require an investment in lost of Special choice models, far more than the core to support them.

I'm interested in trying a Necrarch themed build that floods the board with summons, zombies and skeletons backed by a large battery of casters with the main hammer being Wights. Kemmler seems like the ideal pick for that but...meh I don't really dig the crazy old hermit vibes.

Yazima wrote:

- Sorceress: Lv 2 (Lore of Dark Magic), Dispel Scroll, Tome of Furion, Dark Steed: 175

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you have two Arcane items here.
You're allowed only one per character.

Yazima wrote:

- Vampire Lord: Lv 1 (Lore of Vampires), Hellsteed, Lance, Enchanted Shield, Red Fury, Quickblood, Armour of Destiny

Same with Magical Armour on this guy.
You're only allowed one magical piece (although I do seem to recall a previous edition where the Enchanted Shield could be combined with other magical armour).

And in our big discussions we miss obvious simple things.

 Arnizipal wrote:

Yazima wrote:

- Sorceress: Lv 2 (Lore of Dark Magic), Dispel Scroll, Tome of Furion, Dark Steed: 175

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you have two Arcane items here.
You're allowed only one per character.

Yazima wrote:

- Vampire Lord: Lv 1 (Lore of Vampires), Hellsteed, Lance, Enchanted Shield, Red Fury, Quickblood, Armour of Destiny

Same with Magical Armour on this guy.
You're only allowed one magical piece (although I do seem to recall a previous edition where the Enchanted Shield could be combined with other magical armour).

Haha classic tweaking error that slipped through. Changed the Talisman of Pres for armour to save on heavy armour and forgot to check his other items and added the tome of furion at the last minute when I decided on Shadow for my supreme sorceress. Nice catch