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Made in us
Been Around the Block




Why dont we see more Daemon summoning based lists floating around?
   
Made in gb
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan





Drdotts wrote:
Why dont we see more Daemon summoning based lists floating around?


It is unreliable due to the roll.
It requires you to stand still.
You can't get your summoned models where you want without first getting a character there.
You don't earn any CP from the points you need to reserve for summoning.
Many Daemons are good screens due to their low cost. You need your screens on the table turn 1.
Many other good daemons are extremely unlikely or impossible to summon due to their PL.

In the vast majority of circumstances, just taking the Daemon units as part of your army list is superior.

We do occasionally see summoned Daemons in a tournament list, but it's a rare novelty.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/05/07 23:41:44


 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




Drdotts wrote:
Why dont we see more Daemon summoning based lists floating around?


Because it's not very good. Which is, in a general sense, pretty much always the answer to 'why don't we see more *blank*.'

2500pts
2500
3000


 
   
Made in gb
Stalwart Space Marine



UK

An allied battalion can pay its own way in CP, then deepstrike in the Daemons rather than attempt to jump through all the hoops required to summon.

If Daemons worked like new assassins, it would probably show up a bit more.
   
Made in us
Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control






Across the Rubicon

On top of what Stux said, there is the actual logistics (bringing all those models) and monetary amount of creating a deamon sideboard worth bothering with summoning as well.

   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Stux wrote:
Drdotts wrote:
Why dont we see more Daemon summoning based lists floating around?


It is unreliable due to the roll.
It requires you to stand still.
You can't get your summoned models where you want without first getting a character there.
You don't earn any CP from the points you need to reserve for summoning.
Many Daemons are good screens due to their low cost. You need your screens on the table turn 1.
Many other good daemons are extremely unlikely or impossible to summon due to their PL.

In the vast majority of circumstances, just taking the Daemon units as part of your army list is superior.

We do occasionally see summoned Daemons in a tournament list, but it's a rare novelty.


There are options for 4 dice and no MW. It also appears that you might be able to summon turn 1 officially, which helps.

[im]https://imgur.com/kEUzFF0.png[im]

http://insighthammer.com/ 
   
Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Drdotts wrote:
Why dont we see more Daemon summoning based lists floating around?


Why would you? You can get them better in allied detachment. Locus powers, no unreliability for rolling dice to get them, no need for character to stand still...

Only benefit it has is ability to customize based on opponent. Better haul couple k's worth of models to take advantage of that then...

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Made in de
Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest






Germany

Obvious advantage is you can summon whatever is needed. The rock to the opponents scissor. If its not on the table it cant be shot at T1. Summoning can never fail, you roll, and whatever fits you roll can be summoned (following summoning rules). You are not limited to three same datasheets. Downsides have already been said.

The master of possession allows summoning in the psychic phase with a psychic power, after moving. Warptime him forward, cast the psychic power, summon whatever you can.
   
Made in gb
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan





 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Stux wrote:
Drdotts wrote:
Why dont we see more Daemon summoning based lists floating around?


It is unreliable due to the roll.
It requires you to stand still.
You can't get your summoned models where you want without first getting a character there.
You don't earn any CP from the points you need to reserve for summoning.
Many Daemons are good screens due to their low cost. You need your screens on the table turn 1.
Many other good daemons are extremely unlikely or impossible to summon due to their PL.

In the vast majority of circumstances, just taking the Daemon units as part of your army list is superior.

We do occasionally see summoned Daemons in a tournament list, but it's a rare novelty.


There are options for 4 dice and no MW. It also appears that you might be able to summon turn 1 officially, which helps.


True, but then you're pouring more resources into it.

Yes you can summon turn 1, but if it's supposed to be screening units that's pretty risky as you might not go first, and you might roll badly and get a very small screen.
   
Made in us
Revving Ravenwing Biker




Hanoi, Vietnam.

 Stux wrote:

It is unreliable due to the roll.
It requires you to stand still.
You can't get your summoned models where you want without first getting a character there.
You don't earn any CP from the points you need to reserve for summoning.
Many Daemons are good screens due to their low cost. You need your screens on the table turn 1.
Many other good daemons are extremely unlikely or impossible to summon due to their PL.

This is a pretty damning indictment of the current summoning rules. Makes it seem like an almost totally worthless mechanic, which is a terrible shame really. The idea of Daemons popping into reality at unpredictable times and locations is really a core part of their flavour. This mechanic needs a massive overhaul for sure.
   
Made in gb
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan





 Ginjitzu wrote:
 Stux wrote:

It is unreliable due to the roll.
It requires you to stand still.
You can't get your summoned models where you want without first getting a character there.
You don't earn any CP from the points you need to reserve for summoning.
Many Daemons are good screens due to their low cost. You need your screens on the table turn 1.
Many other good daemons are extremely unlikely or impossible to summon due to their PL.

This is a pretty damning indictment of the current summoning rules. Makes it seem like an almost totally worthless mechanic, which is a terrible shame really. The idea of Daemons popping into reality at unpredictable times and locations is really a core part of their flavour. This mechanic needs a massive overhaul for sure.


Yeah...

To backtrack slightly, they aren't the worst thing in the game. They have niche uses even. For casual games, you can have some fun using like 10% of your points on summoning and you're not going to hamstring yourself too badly.

But this is why you usually (outside of some very weird lists!) don't see it in competitive play.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/08 11:44:49


 
   
Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Ginjitzu wrote:
 Stux wrote:

It is unreliable due to the roll.
It requires you to stand still.
You can't get your summoned models where you want without first getting a character there.
You don't earn any CP from the points you need to reserve for summoning.
Many Daemons are good screens due to their low cost. You need your screens on the table turn 1.
Many other good daemons are extremely unlikely or impossible to summon due to their PL.

This is a pretty damning indictment of the current summoning rules. Makes it seem like an almost totally worthless mechanic, which is a terrible shame really. The idea of Daemons popping into reality at unpredictable times and locations is really a core part of their flavour. This mechanic needs a massive overhaul for sure.


Well they aren't worst thing out there and the new psychic lore helps. But it's not very competive and to have it make any sense means you have to have tons of options. The main benefit you have is FLEXIBILITY so if your summoning is fixed unit(s) that you try to bring by summoning you are missing the main reason to use it.

If you can't due to models go "hmm this time some plague bearers are just the thing" one game and "now I need bloodthirster to smash things around" to "let's bring some pink horrors for firepower" based on game you should seriously consider should you summon or just bring them regularly. You pay all the restrictions for the flexibility.

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11772 pts(along with lots of unpainted unsorted stuff)
5265 pts
5150 pts
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Made in us
Been Around the Block




Indianapolis, IN

I agree with all points about summoning. The only things I see worthwhile to summon would be the Feculent Gnarlmaws for Nurgle. You need them in a forward position to really get their benefits. (IMHO, of course)

   
Made in ca
Eternally-Stimulated Slaanesh Dreadnought





Rzhev

If you have a static R&H CP battery AND a large Daemon collection, Summoning can be quite good, 'cause it allows you to 'tailor' about 75% of a 2K list to the opponent you're facing and you've got five or six CHARACTERS to Summon with, per turn, and ca. sixty GEQ bodies to hide them behind.

EDIT - You can also circumvent the Rule of Three with it.

Otherwise it's practically worthless.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/08 17:17:25


The Fall of Kronstaat IV
Война Народная | Voyna Narodnaya | The People's War - 2,898pts painted (updated 18/09/19)
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You know, if there's one thing I've learnt from being in the Army, it's never ignore a pooh-pooh. I knew a Major who got pooh-poohed; made the mistake of ignoring the pooh-pooh. He pooh-poohed it! Fatal error! 'Cause it turned out all along that the soldier who pooh-poohed him had been pooh-poohing a lot of other officers who pooh-poohed their pooh-poohs. In the end, we had to disband the regiment.
 
   
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They're not super competitive but they can certainly be more formidable than many other low tier faction lists that see play at large events.

Most people probably just don't have the models. Effective summoning lists require large investments in 4 different daemon factions. That's like starting four different horde armies at once. The logistics of running a summoning list (buying, building, painting, transportation, storage, etc) can quickly spiral out of control. And the power of the list is in no way proportional to how much investment it requires.

   
Made in gb
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan





 Excommunicatus wrote:
If you have a static R&H CP battery AND a large Daemon collection, Summoning can be quite good, 'cause it allows you to 'tailor' about 75% of a 2K list to the opponent you're facing and you've got five or six CHARACTERS to Summon with, per turn, and ca. sixty GEQ bodies to hide them behind.

EDIT - You can also circumvent the Rule of Three with it.

Otherwise it's practically worthless.


Summoning 75% sounds super risky!

Could be fun though.
   
Made in de
Hellacious Havoc




Forsaken wastes of Brandenburg

Drdotts wrote:
Why dont we see more Daemon summoning based lists floating around?


All of the answers above revolve entirely around matched play. I use summoning a lot but only in narrative games with my buddies. The MASSIVE benefit of summoning in a non-matched play game is that you just get the daemons. And when they die, you summon them in again. Nobody's counting points and it makes fighting a Chaos opponent feel like you're actually fighting a Chaos opponent rather than a bunch of disgruntled ex-imperial hobos who are still pretending they can get by just fine without a galactic empire's resources backing them up.

But as the Internet pretends narrative play isn't a thing – and because you'll likely never use a narrative play list more than once anyway – there isn't much of a forum for corresponding lists.

DR:70+S+G++MB-IPw40k94#-D++A++/cWD143R++T(D)DM+
~11,000 pts painted

Bharring wrote:
At worst, you'll spend all your time and money on a hobby you don't enjoy, hate everything you're doing, and drive no value out of what should be the best times of your life.
 
   
Made in ch
Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos





 Stux wrote:
 Excommunicatus wrote:
If you have a static R&H CP battery AND a large Daemon collection, Summoning can be quite good, 'cause it allows you to 'tailor' about 75% of a 2K list to the opponent you're facing and you've got five or six CHARACTERS to Summon with, per turn, and ca. sixty GEQ bodies to hide them behind.

EDIT - You can also circumvent the Rule of Three with it.

Otherwise it's practically worthless.


Summoning 75% sounds super risky!

Could be fun though.


I belive the list that won was about 25% of the total, totally depends what you want to summon, altough decent snipers mean you will run out of Charachters rather fast.....

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A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost.) 
   
Made in ca
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Rzhev

So, FWIW, it's not that anyone is pretending that Narrative Play is not a thing, it is simply that most of us do not have a nice, friendy, easy-going group of friends to play garagehammer with and have to rely on pick-up games with total or near strangers.

In those circs, you need a grundnorm and the Matched Play rules are that grundnorm.

Bringing in Narrative Play widens the question to the point of meaningless, too, 'cause you can do basically anything you like in Narrative Play.

The Fall of Kronstaat IV
Война Народная | Voyna Narodnaya | The People's War - 2,898pts painted (updated 18/09/19)
Волшебная Сказка | Volshebnaya Skazka | A Fairy Tale (updated 07/10/19, ep9 - Разорение | Razoreniye | Downfall)
Kabal of The Violet Heart (updated 18/09/19)

You know, if there's one thing I've learnt from being in the Army, it's never ignore a pooh-pooh. I knew a Major who got pooh-poohed; made the mistake of ignoring the pooh-pooh. He pooh-poohed it! Fatal error! 'Cause it turned out all along that the soldier who pooh-poohed him had been pooh-poohing a lot of other officers who pooh-poohed their pooh-poohs. In the end, we had to disband the regiment.
 
   
Made in us
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Eye of Terror

Lots of hyperbole in this thread. Many of the downsides described here are accurate, but many of the conclusions people are reaching are off the charts.

I've been using Summoning throughout 8th edition. Before C:CD arrived, summoning is how you deep struck Daemons. In comparison to Denizens of the Warp, it's less reliable but certainly not worthless.

The big benefit is that you don't need to select all your forces before the start of a battle. You can choose units as needs dictate. For me, it usually comes down to Horrors or Bloodletters, shooty or choppy.

The second big benefit is that you're not burning command points to deep strike. Daemon armies tend to be CP starved in the first place. It's easier to set aside some points than burn command points before the game starts.

The third big benefit is summoning works after the third turn. There are times where it's very useful to pull in another unit late game.

A typical use case for me is a Daemon Prince who lost his screens. He's close enough to charge a unit that will likely die in close combat. He needs a unit - any unit - to make sure he doesn't get shot up afterwards. I'd rather bring on a useless unit of Nurglings than lose a key player like a DP.

With regards to cost - Chaos Daemon armies are always expensive, the same way Guard armies are expensive. The cost of storage and transport is not that bad. I fit over 200 models into 4 collapsible foam trays and bring them with me to most games.

   
Made in gb
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan





 techsoldaten wrote:
Lots of hyperbole in this thread. Many of the downsides described here are accurate, but many of the conclusions people are reaching are off the charts.

I've been using Summoning throughout 8th edition. Before C:CD arrived, summoning is how you deep struck Daemons. In comparison to Denizens of the Warp, it's less reliable but certainly not worthless.

The big benefit is that you don't need to select all your forces before the start of a battle. You can choose units as needs dictate. For me, it usually comes down to Horrors or Bloodletters, shooty or choppy.

The second big benefit is that you're not burning command points to deep strike. Daemon armies tend to be CP starved in the first place. It's easier to set aside some points than burn command points before the game starts.

The third big benefit is summoning works after the third turn. There are times where it's very useful to pull in another unit late game.

A typical use case for me is a Daemon Prince who lost his screens. He's close enough to charge a unit that will likely die in close combat. He needs a unit - any unit - to make sure he doesn't get shot up afterwards. I'd rather bring on a useless unit of Nurglings than lose a key player like a DP.

With regards to cost - Chaos Daemon armies are always expensive, the same way Guard armies are expensive. The cost of storage and transport is not that bad. I fit over 200 models into 4 collapsible foam trays and bring them with me to most games.


Yes, there's some hyperbole. It's not terrible, it's simply outclassed in most (but not all) circumstances.

Your first benefit I agree with. This is tangible, though it does require you to own a lot of models to make it work.

Second one is dispute. Yes, the Strat costs CP. But if you're bringing Daemons in you're army you are most likely bringing a Battalion. You might even net gain CP this way depending on how much you deep strike. You can always deploy some as a screen and warp in the rest.

Third one I'm not sure is much of a benefit either. Occasionally it will be yes, but games are so often decided before the end of turn 3 anyway. If you've spent points that aren't doing anything until turn 4 that seems like a bad deal most of the time.
   
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I have used summoning, and my main problem is the inability to move and summon. If you could say, jump 12 inches with a TS DP then summon a few flamers or horrors into position to strike turn one, that would be useful enough to counter most of the other negatives of summoning. Right now, they only time I found it useful is if you are playing a very aggressive in your face army, which is on you turn 1, then you can summon a surprise unit of flamers or horrors from your static characters to counter punch. They really should review the summoning rules.
   
Made in us
Ancient Chaos Terminator





Eye of Terror

 Stux wrote:
Spoiler:
 techsoldaten wrote:
Lots of hyperbole in this thread. Many of the downsides described here are accurate, but many of the conclusions people are reaching are off the charts.

I've been using Summoning throughout 8th edition. Before C:CD arrived, summoning is how you deep struck Daemons. In comparison to Denizens of the Warp, it's less reliable but certainly not worthless.

The big benefit is that you don't need to select all your forces before the start of a battle. You can choose units as needs dictate. For me, it usually comes down to Horrors or Bloodletters, shooty or choppy.

The second big benefit is that you're not burning command points to deep strike. Daemon armies tend to be CP starved in the first place. It's easier to set aside some points than burn command points before the game starts.

The third big benefit is summoning works after the third turn. There are times where it's very useful to pull in another unit late game.

A typical use case for me is a Daemon Prince who lost his screens. He's close enough to charge a unit that will likely die in close combat. He needs a unit - any unit - to make sure he doesn't get shot up afterwards. I'd rather bring on a useless unit of Nurglings than lose a key player like a DP.

With regards to cost - Chaos Daemon armies are always expensive, the same way Guard armies are expensive. The cost of storage and transport is not that bad. I fit over 200 models into 4 collapsible foam trays and bring them with me to most games.


Yes, there's some hyperbole. It's not terrible, it's simply outclassed in most (but not all) circumstances.

Your first benefit I agree with. This is tangible, though it does require you to own a lot of models to make it work.

Second one is dispute. Yes, the Strat costs CP. But if you're bringing Daemons in you're army you are most likely bringing a Battalion. You might even net gain CP this way depending on how much you deep strike. You can always deploy some as a screen and warp in the rest.

Third one I'm not sure is much of a benefit either. Occasionally it will be yes, but games are so often decided before the end of turn 3 anyway. If you've spent points that aren't doing anything until turn 4 that seems like a bad deal most of the time.

Interesting points.

The point about bringing a lot of models - not sure how this is different from any other horde army. Maybe I don't use every model, but I bring them because they are all in the same carrying case. It would be more work not to.

Regarding command points, sure, if you are looking to deep strike min-sized units of Nurglings, Denizens of the Warp doesn't take too many CP. However, most players are looking for something beefier, in the 3 CP per unit range. That's usually a drain.

Regarding most games being decided at the end of turn 3, sure, but who cares about those games? It means you or your opponent did something seriously wrong. Going into a game with the versatility to do something when you need it has some value too.

I don't mean to suggest these points are irrelevant, but it feels like we're reaching for edge cases. Summoning has some value.

   
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I agree it has some value, but I feel that value is an edge case.

It doesn't necessarily means anyone did anything seriously wrong to lose by turn 3, it's just the lethality of 8e. I don't necessarily mean the game is literally over turn 3 by the way, in case that isn't clear. I mean that is where the tipping point likely has occured by, and to a degree that summoning is unlikely to turn around - especially as it likely means you're struggling to control the battlefield enough to have characters where their presence would be useful.
   
Made in ca
Eternally-Stimulated Slaanesh Dreadnought





Rzhev

To get the max. value out of Summoning you don't need a horde army, you need four horde armies.

EDIT - At great expense. Coincidentally, I'm sure.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/05/11 23:00:44


The Fall of Kronstaat IV
Война Народная | Voyna Narodnaya | The People's War - 2,898pts painted (updated 18/09/19)
Волшебная Сказка | Volshebnaya Skazka | A Fairy Tale (updated 07/10/19, ep9 - Разорение | Razoreniye | Downfall)
Kabal of The Violet Heart (updated 18/09/19)

You know, if there's one thing I've learnt from being in the Army, it's never ignore a pooh-pooh. I knew a Major who got pooh-poohed; made the mistake of ignoring the pooh-pooh. He pooh-poohed it! Fatal error! 'Cause it turned out all along that the soldier who pooh-poohed him had been pooh-poohing a lot of other officers who pooh-poohed their pooh-poohs. In the end, we had to disband the regiment.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Yea it's kinda the same as the new assassin rules. You pretty much need all four on hand to take advantage or you might as well just take the one you want as part of your list. I don't play chaos but I can't imagine buying models four all gods on the off chance I might want to bring in a squad or two during a game.
   
 
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