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Made in us
Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend





Gurnee, IL

So, here's the Profile for the Contorted Epitome:



I've seen this question come up on three separate forums. Can the model take the Slothful Claw as an relic. The Slothful Claw replaces the Heralds Ravaging claws. RAW I'd say you can replace the Ravaging Claws with the Slothful Claws but you would loose the 8 bonus attacks; and would not be able to attack with the relic as the Heralds have no attack profile. The other problem I see is there are two Heralds who technically only have 4 attacks each; and they obviously can't both take the same relic.

What say you all?

"Fear the cute ones." 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

It looks like a named character (Named Herald of Slanesh) to me, if it is, it can not take additional relics.

What Codex is that in?

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





RAW You would lose the ravaging claw profile as it replaces that and the unit has 2 attacks on it's profile.

RAI/HIWPI a model can't have more than one relic so the model has 4 slothful claw attacks and 4 ravaging claw attacks (one herald had the slothful claw)

Edit- the contorted epitome is not an unique unit i.e. not named.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/05/18 03:46:22


 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

blaktoof wrote:
Edit- the contorted epitome is not an unique unit i.e. not named.
Are you sure about that?
The Contorted Epitome Sounds like a named character.

What Codex is that in?

Because the top says to "for the full rules for this unit, see the codex relevant to your army."

So maybe without the full rules, we should wait on any discussion about it.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





See anywhere saying it's unique? If something can only be taken once it says so in datasheet. Guillimann isn't unique because of fancy name but because datasheet says so.

This is just gw tradeamarkable wolfity mcwolf name. For it to be unique datasheet has to say so

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

GW once again at its finest The datasheet is a small booklet that comes with the model. The sentence on top is written on every booklet that comes with newly released models. The epitome is of course not in the chaos daemon codex. We dont know if its a named character or not. The contorted epitome doesnt sound like a name to me. The "the" in front is not something named chararacters usually have. There are the blue scribes, but their datasheet says they can only be included once in your army, which is not the case here. It also doesnt say how many attendants there are. Are there two ? Are those two treated as one, because it says to make 8 additional attacks, not 2*4 ? In that case they would make 8 additional attacks with the relic. GW needs to answer this in a FAQ.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/18 06:42:55


 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

It tells you how many attacks the attendants make.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






So, barring any indication it is a named character, it isn't. Therefore it can take the relic which replaces "Ravaging Claws" which means it loses the special abilities of the Ravaging Claws.
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





Yes it can take the relic but it can't attack with it since the attendant doesn't have a profile and the rules that let them attack are attached to the weapon that you replaced.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

The top says to "for the full rules for this unit, see the codex relevant to your army."

So maybe without the full rules, we should wait on any discussion about it.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in gb
Horrific Hive Tyrant





I agree with both BCB and DeathReaper here.

The rules as they stand do not treat it as a named character, so it can take it. However these are clearly provisional rules and you should be aware they could change in the future.
   
Made in pt
Dakka Veteran





The Hedonites of Slaanesh battletome explains that this model consists of a mirror of absorption (of which there are several) and two attendant heralds of Slaanesh. I believe that the term 'The Corrupted Epitome' refers to the concept of this combination more than anything else, which is why there is a weird definite article in there. If you are willing to accept AoS fluff in 40k then this means that the unit is not intended to be unique or a 'named character'.

As for taking a relic, I think you can definitely make an argument for different things. You could say that the ravaging claws profile is completely replaced and that this essentially gives the model an alternative mêlée option that it can use instead of its tentacle attacks. You could say that if you remove the special text of the ravaging claws then the heralds lose their permission to attack at all. You could say that the replacement results in 4 ravaging claw attacks and 4 slothful claw attacks from the heralds; this would make logical sense but I don't think RAW supports it. Finally you could say that this combination is weird and probably unintentional and shouldn't be allowed. I would lean towards the latter.

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Made in ca
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh





Hamilton, ON

DeathReaper wrote:The top says to "for the full rules for this unit, see the codex relevant to your army."

So maybe without the full rules, we should wait on any discussion about it.


It says that only so they don't have to re-print their inserts when a new Codex: Chaos Daemons comes out.

Nobody is expecting that any time soon so these are "the full rules" for the foreseeable future.

EDIT - There isn't a shred of anything approaching evidence that The Contorted Epitome is a unique model.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/21 21:11:37


The Fall of Kronstaat IV
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All 'crimes' should be treasured if they bring you pleasure somehow. 
   
Made in gb
Excited Doom Diver





 Excommunicatus wrote:
EDIT - There isn't a shred of anything approaching evidence that The Contorted Epitome is a unique model.

Apart from the definite article - calling it "The Distorted Epitome" instead of "Distorted Epitome" is an indication that it's supposed to be unique.

I mean, I agree that RAW it's definitely not unique, and the name argument is only soft evidence of the RAI. I'd play it as not unique. But there is some evidence to support the argument it's unique.
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






Aelyn wrote:
 Excommunicatus wrote:
EDIT - There isn't a shred of anything approaching evidence that The Contorted Epitome is a unique model.

Apart from the definite article - calling it "The Distorted Epitome" instead of "Distorted Epitome" is an indication that it's supposed to be unique.

I mean, I agree that RAW it's definitely not unique, and the name argument is only soft evidence of the RAI. I'd play it as not unique. But there is some evidence to support the argument it's unique.
The Avatar of Khaine isn't a named character, which is why it was called out explicitly in the codex.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

The top of the page literally says "for the full rules for this unit, see the codex relevant to your army."

So we should wait on any discussion about it, because we do not have the full rules.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





Aelyn wrote:
calling it "The Distorted Epitome" instead of "Distorted Epitome" is an indication that it's supposed to be unique.

My post above explains why this is not the case.

8930 points 6800 points 75 points 600 points
2810 points 4090 points 2650 points 3275 points
55 points 640 points 1840 points 435 points
2990 points 700 points 2235 points 1935 points
3460 points 1595 points 2480 points 2895 points
 
   
Made in us
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch




 DeathReaper wrote:
The top of the page literally says "for the full rules for this unit, see the codex relevant to your army."

So we should wait on any discussion about it, because we do not have the full rules.


Yeah guys let's give it a few months before even talking about something that could come up when making a list now

You've said this three times, we've seen it.

Agreed it's not a unique character as it doesn't state it is.
   
Made in us
Androgynous Daemon Prince of Slaanesh





Norwalk, Connecticut

The model gets to make 8 attacks w/ravaging claws. This weapon is an upgrade to ravaging claws. So whatever attacks the thing had with the claws it keeps. If they wanted it to be something else, they would have named them “scything claws” or “rending claws” or something. This definitely feels like a case of people trying to twist the words to make it not work.

Reality is a nice place to visit, but I'd hate to live there.

Manchu wrote:I'm a Catholic. We eat our God.


Due to work, I can usually only ship any sales or trades out on Saturday morning. Please trade/purchase with this in mind.  
   
Made in ca
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh





Hamilton, ON

Aelyn wrote:
 Excommunicatus wrote:
EDIT - There isn't a shred of anything approaching evidence that The Contorted Epitome is a unique model.

Apart from the definite article - calling it "The Distorted Epitome" instead of "Distorted Epitome" is an indication that it's supposed to be unique.

I mean, I agree that RAW it's definitely not unique, and the name argument is only soft evidence of the RAI. I'd play it as not unique. But there is some evidence to support the argument it's unique.


Precisely what I mean. The strongest argument is an irrelevancy.

Also, "Contorted".

The Fall of Kronstaat IV
Война Народная | Voyna Narodnaya | The People's War - 2,765pts painted (updated 06/05/20)
Волшебная Сказка | Volshebnaya Skazka | A Fairy Tale (updated 29/12/19, ep10 - And All That Could Have Been)
Kabal of The Violet Heart (updated 02/02/2020)

All 'crimes' should be treasured if they bring you pleasure somehow. 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

 timetowaste85 wrote:
The model gets to make 8 attacks w/ravaging claws. This weapon is an upgrade to ravaging claws. So whatever attacks the thing had with the claws it keeps. If they wanted it to be something else, they would have named them “scything claws” or “rending claws” or something. This definitely feels like a case of people trying to twist the words to make it not work.


The weapon is wholly replaced by the Slothful Claws-so you no longer get the 8 extra attacks. You can make the 2 normal attacks with either profile, though.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





 timetowaste85 wrote:
The model gets to make 8 attacks w/ravaging claws. This weapon is an upgrade to ravaging claws. So whatever attacks the thing had with the claws it keeps.

If you replace the ravaging claws with the relic then you should lose the text next to the ravaging claws profile, which is the only thing telling you how many attacks you get and indeed the only thing giving you permission to make any with the heralds in the first place.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
If they wanted it to be something else, they would have named them “scything claws” or “rending claws” or something. This definitely feels like a case of people trying to twist the words to make it not work.

The model was primarily designed to fit into an Age of Sigmar Hedonites of Slaanesh army. The 40k datasheet was probably tossed into the box as an afterthought. It is entirely probable that no one considered how the weapon names would interact with 40k relics.

To me, allowing 8 attacks with the relic is the equivalent of giving the same relic to two different heralds in your army, allowing you to take the same relic twice and not requiring you to pay any additional command points for the privilege . This is an unfair advantage.

8930 points 6800 points 75 points 600 points
2810 points 4090 points 2650 points 3275 points
55 points 640 points 1840 points 435 points
2990 points 700 points 2235 points 1935 points
3460 points 1595 points 2480 points 2895 points
 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

Fairly obviously not intended to be replaced, as it’s an extra ability not a weapon the model has, but that won’t stop the arguments...

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





So the Slothful Claw isn't as good as coiled tentacles?

It would be much easier to replace those and still have all the extra attacks from Ravaging Claws.
   
Made in us
Androgynous Daemon Prince of Slaanesh





Norwalk, Connecticut

Slothful claw only replaces ravaging claws. Doesn’t replace any other weapons, if memory serves.

Reality is a nice place to visit, but I'd hate to live there.

Manchu wrote:I'm a Catholic. We eat our God.


Due to work, I can usually only ship any sales or trades out on Saturday morning. Please trade/purchase with this in mind.  
   
Made in ca
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh





Hamilton, ON

Yep, only Ravaging.

Index Heralds only have Piercing, so can't swap.

The Fall of Kronstaat IV
Война Народная | Voyna Narodnaya | The People's War - 2,765pts painted (updated 06/05/20)
Волшебная Сказка | Volshebnaya Skazka | A Fairy Tale (updated 29/12/19, ep10 - And All That Could Have Been)
Kabal of The Violet Heart (updated 02/02/2020)

All 'crimes' should be treasured if they bring you pleasure somehow. 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

Jacksmiles wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
The top of the page literally says "for the full rules for this unit, see the codex relevant to your army."

So we should wait on any discussion about it, because we do not have the full rules.


Yeah guys let's give it a few months before even talking about something that could come up when making a list now

You've said this three times, we've seen it.

Agreed it's not a unique character as it doesn't state it is.
Clearly no one has seen it, because we do not have the full rules.

How is this even a thing when we just do not have the full rules?

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 DeathReaper wrote:
Jacksmiles wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
The top of the page literally says "for the full rules for this unit, see the codex relevant to your army."

So we should wait on any discussion about it, because we do not have the full rules.


Yeah guys let's give it a few months before even talking about something that could come up when making a list now

You've said this three times, we've seen it.

Agreed it's not a unique character as it doesn't state it is.
Clearly no one has seen it, because we do not have the full rules.

How is this even a thing when we just do not have the full rules?


He's saying we've seen you say we should wait on discussing it three times, not that we've seen the rules three times. He's just pointing out that waiting probably a few months, but really an indeterminate time doesn't seem practical for situations that occur now, and that we shouldn't wait on the discussion.

   
Made in gb
Excited Doom Diver





 Bilge Rat wrote:
Aelyn wrote:
calling it "The Distorted Epitome" instead of "Distorted Epitome" is an indication that it's supposed to be unique.

My post above explains why this is not the case.

It provides a possible explanation, but AoS fluff is not 40K fluff and the idea that "The Contorted Epitome" refers to the entire formation doesn't quite work when the datasheet says that it's attended by two Heralds - it should say that it includes two Heralds for that interpretation to work.
 Excommunicatus wrote:

Precisely what I mean. The strongest argument is an irrelevancy.

Just because the evidence is, in your opinion, an irrelevancy does not mean it does not exist. There is precedent for datasheets titled "The..." typically being unique (The Swarmlord, The Solitaire, The Blue Scribes) and while I would be happy to play against one with a Relic and treat it as not being unique, I would also recommend that people don't buy multiples as I can definitely see it being FAQ'd into being unique / having that clause added when it's printed in an actual book.

If you meant that "there is no rules text that states it's unique", I agree, I'm not disputing that. But there is evidence that it is intended to be unique, so I don't think the question is unreasonable.
Also, "Contorted".

Oh, duh! Not sure how I got those wires crossed...
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




It can take the relic, replacing all of the text for it's built in weapon profile just like every other relic swap. So, it only gets 2 attacks with the relic weapon profile. We have rules that are supposed to be playable, so waiting to discuss those rules and a reasonable question like this is nonsense.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/23 10:08:24


 
   
 
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