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Has anyone seen anything in any of the recent novels / lore that explains why intercessors don't operate in tactical squads? I'm curious why after each chapter received these better space marines, they didn't just slot them into their existing units.

Or has anyone at GW ever said anything about their design thoughts on intercessors?

I believe the lore reason is that when Guilliman organized the Primaris Marines he used Legion-era squad organization where everyone in a squad carried the same equipment.

 argonak wrote:
Has anyone seen anything in any of the recent novels / lore that explains why intercessors don't operate in tactical squads? I'm curious why after each chapter received these better space marines, they didn't just slot them into their existing units.

Or has anyone at GW ever said anything about their design thoughts on intercessors?

I have read anything new yet, but Intercessors can still combat squad.

I’ve been hearing though that Bobby G. is bringing back the old system of weapon-dedicated squads.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I believe the lore reason is that when Guilliman organized the Primaris Marines he used Legion-era squad organization where everyone in a squad carried the same equipment.

Oh. I never really got into 30k, the legions didn't use tactical squads?

The Legions had Legion Veteran Tactical squads. They are what we would recognize as a 40k Tactical Squad. But the standard legion marine units used the same weapon on all ten marines. A Tactical squad had bolters, a tactical support squad had all the same special weapon, and a heavy support squad had 10 Heavy weapons.

But we are seeing them get swords and fists.

If you're asking why Tom, Dick, and Harry, three intercessors from the Grey Shields that got shipped off to Caliban to join the Dark Angels, didn't get piled into a Tac Squad - nobody wants to keep track of 4 Tactical bolter marines, 3 Intercessors, a tactical melta marine, a tactical Plasma Cannon marine, and Sergeant Charlemagne with his power fist and similar all across an army.

If you're asking why You can't have an intercessor squad with a Sword swinging sergeant, 7 Bolt Rifler's, one plasma Incinerator and one Heavy Plasma Incinerator.. I don't know. Potentially they didn't like the 7 man Devastator Squad ablative wound thing is my best guess.

my personal theory is because primaris where designed with feedback from 7th edition. back before split fire was a possiability. mixed weapons where seen as largely a waste compared to eldar with their dedicated squads, and a lotta folks where calling for 2 wounds.

BrianDavion wrote:
my personal theory is because primaris where designed with feedback from 7th edition. back before split fire was a possiability. mixed weapons where seen as largely a waste compared to eldar with their dedicated squads, and a lotta folks where calling for 2 wounds.

That makes a whole lot of sense actually. And it does take GW a couple years to tool up for a major new release I've heard.

Breton wrote:
nobody wants to keep track of 4 Tactical bolter marines, 3 Intercessors, a tactical melta marine, a tactical Plasma Cannon marine, and Sergeant Charlemagne with his power fist and similar all across an army.

Deathwatch player says 'hi'!

The basic infantry unit of the Legiones Astartes is also called the 'Tactical Squad' but they were very different units than post-Codex chapters. They all carried bolters (Except the Sergeant) and were nominally comprised of 10-20 legionnaires. The Sergeant had more choices in equipment than either their post-codex or Primaris counterparts. They could take artificer armor, all kinds of power weapons, combi-weapons, volkite pistols, bolt pistols and plasma pistols.

Primaris Intercessors seem to be much more focused than even Legion-era tactical squad on being bolt weapon specialists considering they can use multiple variants and their Sergeant still has to carry a basic infantry rifle like the rest of his squad no matter what. This represents a paradigm shift to increased homogenization in squad-level equipment and tactics. Why did Guilliman, who made the diversely equipped Tactical squad the standard infantry unit, went completely the other direction is... strange to me. The tactical advantage in giving squads increased firepower to meet mission needs is obvious. I can only speculate but maybe Guilliman either felt the Legion-era organization was superior to his reforms or he wanted his new generation of super soldiers to work together on company level instead of focusing on the capabilities of individual squads.

Intercessor squads ARE Tactical squads... 8th ED renamed Tactical as Battleline.

All Tactical / Battleline squads can be fielded as full squads (10) or combat squads (5).

As others have said... their weapon loadout is based on Legion tactics.

Mik

 Duskweaver wrote:

Breton wrote:
nobody wants to keep track of 4 Tactical bolter marines, 3 Intercessors, a tactical melta marine, a tactical Plasma Cannon marine, and Sergeant Charlemagne with his power fist and similar all across an army.

Deathwatch player says 'hi'!

I never said nobody wanted to make someone ELSE keep track of that...

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Why did Guilliman, who made the diversely equipped Tactical squad the standard infantry unit, went completely the other direction is... strange to me.

I think people misunderstand how GW works these days.

It used to be, many editions ago, that GW fluff writers were the ones making the decisions about the direction of the setting's narrative. Then models and rules would be designed based on the fluff. So we'd sometimes get a codex with a new unit and some art, but have to wait a while for the models (and in the meantime we'd convert something to represent the new unit). But the fluff tended to remain pretty consistent, building on what came before. Established characters would act in accordance with their established personalities/goals/values etc. Under that paradigm, if Guilliman came back from the dead and reformed the Codex Astartes, he'd do it consistently with how he was previously portrayed, merely expanding upon the guidelines he laid down in the original Codex.

Post Chapterhouse, that's no longer seen as a viable paradigm within GW. They will never again introduce a new unit with rules and fluff before the models are ready for release, because they can no longer legally prevent some other company from producing models for that unit and selling them before GW gets the 'official' models out the door.

So now the models are designed first, by people whose knowledge of the fluff is... not quite as in-depth as the actual fluff-writers (although of course they do 'compare notes'). Basically, Jes Goodwin is the guy who decides what new units get added to the game and what equipment they get. And go watch his Voxcast interview. He's a great guy, and he's been with GW long enough to grok most of the fluff in broad terms, but he's not a details guy when it comes to the fluff. Consistent characterisation of established characters like Guilliman is not really something he's interested in. He's a 'broad strokes overall aesthetic feel of the faction' kind of guy.

Jes and co. design new model kits. Then the fluff and rules writers make up some fluff to justify their inclusion and some rules to allow them to work in the game. If either the fluff or rules need to have liberties taken with them to make them fit the new models, then they will do that. Because the models can't be changed at that point. So if Jes decides the new SM kit should all use the same weapon (because he thinks it 'looks better' than a mix of weapons), the fluff and rules guys have to write that in, regardless of whether it makes any sense in the context of the established fluff or rules.

If you really want to bake your noodle -

Primaris can't ride in a Land Raider though Terminators can - this could have gone either way as I understand Primaris are supposedly Termie Sized. But OK.

A Drednaught can/did fit in a Drop Pod. Primaris cannot.

Primaris can fit in a Repuslor, but scouts and Tactical Marines... can't?

Breton wrote:
If you really want to bake your noodle -

Primaris can't ride in a Land Raider though Terminators can - this could have gone either way as I understand Primaris are supposedly Termie Sized. But OK.

A Drednaught can/did fit in a Drop Pod. Primaris cannot.

Primaris can fit in a Repuslor, but scouts and Tactical Marines... can't?

Well that's obviously just GW being dinks. I don't think anyone cares about looking for lore excuses for that clearly business decision.

 argonak wrote:

Breton wrote:
If you really want to bake your noodle -

Primaris can't ride in a Land Raider though Terminators can - this could have gone either way as I understand Primaris are supposedly Termie Sized. But OK.

A Drednaught can/did fit in a Drop Pod. Primaris cannot.

Primaris can fit in a Repuslor, but scouts and Tactical Marines... can't?

Well that's obviously just GW being dinks. I don't think anyone cares about looking for lore excuses for that clearly business decision.

Oh I'm not looking for an excuse, I'm having fun imagining the - basically Turn Signals On A Land Raider style - scenarios. Dante orders Tycho to mount up and lead the intercessors against the Orcs, and the Intercessors in the Repulsor push him out the door again, chanting something mean.

Breton wrote:

 argonak wrote:

Breton wrote:
If you really want to bake your noodle -

Primaris can't ride in a Land Raider though Terminators can - this could have gone either way as I understand Primaris are supposedly Termie Sized. But OK.

A Drednaught can/did fit in a Drop Pod. Primaris cannot.

Primaris can fit in a Repuslor, but scouts and Tactical Marines... can't?

Well that's obviously just GW being dinks. I don't think anyone cares about looking for lore excuses for that clearly business decision.

Oh I'm not looking for an excuse, I'm having fun imagining the - basically Turn Signals On A Land Raider style - scenarios. Dante orders Tycho to mount up and lead the intercessors against the Orcs, and the Intercessors in the Repulsor push him out the door again, chanting something mean.

Hah. Or maybe he can't reach the seatbelt and the Repulsor won't move until everyone is buckled in.