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Made in de
Waaagh! Warbiker




Somewhere near Hamburg

It is a T'au relic. One of my buddys likes to pull a cheesy move where he moves up the board with his coldstar first turn, shoots and then immediately moves 6" into Close Combat range.

The relic rules are word for word:

T’AU SEPT BATTLESUIT only. This model may immediately move
up to 6" after attacking in the Shooting phase.


This way he completely avoids overwatch and shuts down things like Leman Russes with ease for the next turn. This is quite a loophole because while there are rules preventing this from happening in the movement phase there are no such restrictions in the shooting phase. Overwatch also doesnt happen in the Shooting Phase. Since he then starts his Fighting Phase within 1" of me he even gets to attack with his Coldstar. It is quite infuriating. I cannot find anything in any rules or FAQs that forbids him to do that but maybe I have overlooked something?

Can somebody please help me out on this?


Astra Milit..*blam* Astra Milliwhat, heretic? 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






Morkphoiz wrote:
It is a T'au relic. One of my buddys likes to pull a cheesy move where he moves up the board with his coldstar first turn, shoots and then immediately moves 6" into Close Combat range.

The relic rules are word for word:

T’AU SEPT BATTLESUIT only. This model may immediately move
up to 6" after attacking in the Shooting phase.


This way he completely avoids overwatch and shuts down things like Leman Russes with ease for the next turn. This is quite a loophole because while there are rules preventing this from happening in the movement phase there are no such restrictions in the shooting phase. Overwatch also doesnt happen in the Shooting Phase. Since he then starts his Fighting Phase within 1" of me he even gets to attack with his Coldstar. It is quite infuriating. I cannot find anything in any rules or FAQs that forbids him to do that but maybe I have overlooked something?

Can somebody please help me out on this?

RaW, yes he may move within 1" of an enemy unit as the rule does not specify "move as if it were the movement phase", thus the restriction inherent to the movement phase about moving within 1" of an enemy do not apply, much like how the Character Shooting Phase rule does not apply in the Charge Phase when you fire Overwatch.

Your best solution is to just fall back with your unit and shoot the rest of your army at the Commander instead.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/22 18:55:48


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+++++There are currently ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY FIVE (125) documents required to play Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
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Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
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Made in de
Waaagh! Warbiker




Somewhere near Hamburg

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Good luck swinging that interpretation with anyone, however.



It IS raw after all. Also in the Big FAQ they clarified that the nova reactor ability of the Riptide can't be used to move within 1" of the enemy. It is a different ability in a different phase but at the same time they clearly did not clarify this for the Thrusters.

Oh well. At least I can shield my valuable assets from this move because I just found that the altered rules for movement of units with FLY do allow to move over enemy models in the movement and in the charge phase. No mention of the shooting phase so he cannot move over models then. Thats at least something

Astra Milit..*blam* Astra Milliwhat, heretic? 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






Morkphoiz wrote:
It IS raw after all. Also in the Big FAQ they clarified that the nova reactor ability of the Riptide can't be used to move within 1" of the enemy. It is a different ability in a different phase but at the same time they clearly did not clarify this for the Thrusters.

Oh well. At least I can shield my valuable assets from this move because I just found that the altered rules for movement of units with FLY do allow to move over enemy models in the movement and in the charge phase. No mention of the shooting phase so he cannot move over models then. Thats at least something
I agree with you there. By clarifying it for the Nova Reactor and not for Vectored Manoeuvring Thrusters, they obviously intended for Vectored Manoeuvring Thrusters to work differently!

Nice catch about FLY not applying in the Shooting Phase! One for the sig at this point!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/22 19:10:07


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+++++There are currently ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY FIVE (125) documents required to play Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
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Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
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Made in gb
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets





Cardiff

Oh you can suddenly infer intent here but nowhere else?

If this is just a “let’s find a Reddit-level exploit” thread I’m out. If there’s a genuine question I’m in.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
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Under the couch

Morkphoiz wrote:

It IS raw after all. Also in the Big FAQ they clarified that the nova reactor ability of the Riptide can't be used to move within 1" of the enemy. It is a different ability in a different phase but at the same time they clearly did not clarify this for the Thrusters.

If you're not using the rules for moving in the movement phase, how do you determine how to move the model?

The hardline RAW approach here, if you don't follow the movement phase rules, would be that the suit can't actually move in the shooting phase at all, since there is no rules mechanism provided to do so.


The more common sense approach would be to assume that the rule is intended to be functional, and follow the rules for moving in the Movement phase.

 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 insaniak wrote:
Morkphoiz wrote:

It IS raw after all. Also in the Big FAQ they clarified that the nova reactor ability of the Riptide can't be used to move within 1" of the enemy. It is a different ability in a different phase but at the same time they clearly did not clarify this for the Thrusters.

If you're not using the rules for moving in the movement phase, how do you determine how to move the model?

The hardline RAW approach here, if you don't follow the movement phase rules, would be that the suit can't actually move in the shooting phase at all, since there is no rules mechanism provided to do so.


The more common sense approach would be to assume that the rule is intended to be functional, and follow the rules for moving in the Movement phase.
There is a difference between using the rules for movement found in the movement phase and acting "as if" it were the movement phase, due to GW's well thought out FAQ ruling.

Of course the movement uses the rules found in the movement phase. The same way that making a Heroic Intervention move uses the rules outlined in the movement phase rules. However, in the case of VMT it is the Shooting Phase and the "that rule explicitly mentions to make that action as if it were a different phase" FAQ does not apply because VMT does not "explicitly mention to make that action as if it were a different phase". Thus you use the movement rules, but the rule that says "When you move a model in the Movement phase, it may not be moved within 1" of any enemy models." does not apply.

Compare Vectored Manoeuvring Thrusters to something like Move! Move! Move! which "explicitly mentions to make that action as if it were a different phase", in this case "as if it were the Movement Phase." You cannot argue that Vectored Manoeuvring Thrusters should be (or is intended to be) worded like Move! Move! Move! because GW have proven multiple times that the bespoke rules nature of 8th edition exists so that rules can be different. Why else have an FAQ answer that literally starts with "It depends on the exact wording of the rule in question" if not for rules depending on their exact wording? Why bother changing "Basilisk or Wyvern model" to "BASILISK or WYVERN model" if Names vs Keywords didn't make a difference?

Now, would it be nice for GW to errata VMT to say "as if it were the Movement Phase"? Sure. It would also be nice for them to errata Flamers as being unable to hit AIRCRAFT, or for models to have a -1 to hit if they don't have Line of Sight. It would be nice, but it isn't what the rules say.

So, yes, we are following the common sense approach by treating it the same way as moving a Heroic Interventioning model.

Another example: The latest errata changed the movement rules to explicitly state that FLY works in the Movement Phase and in the Charge Phase. This means that during the Psychic, Shooting, Fight and Morale Phases, when a model moves (unless it is acting "as if" it were the Movement Phase) the FLY keyword does not have any effect (e.g. Pile In and Consolidations). If all movement were supposed work as though it were the movement phase, why need to list explicitly that FLY only works in the Movement and Charge Phase? Unless, of course, that FLY isn't supposed to work in those phases, much like how the Character protection doesn't work in the Charge Phase when firing Overwatch.

This message was edited 9 times. Last update was at 2019/05/22 20:20:10


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+++++There are currently ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY FIVE (125) documents required to play Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
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Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
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Made in de
Waaagh! Warbiker




Somewhere near Hamburg

 insaniak wrote:
Morkphoiz wrote:

It IS raw after all. Also in the Big FAQ they clarified that the nova reactor ability of the Riptide can't be used to move within 1" of the enemy. It is a different ability in a different phase but at the same time they clearly did not clarify this for the Thrusters.

If you're not using the rules for moving in the movement phase, how do you determine how to move the model?

The hardline RAW approach here, if you don't follow the movement phase rules, would be that the suit can't actually move in the shooting phase at all, since there is no rules mechanism provided to do so.


The more common sense approach would be to assume that the rule is intended to be functional, and follow the rules for moving in the Movement phase.



"Immediatly move 6" " is all the Thrusters say. Even IF I applied the rules of the movement phase: Under "Enemy Models" the rules state:

Enemy Models
All models in the same army are
friendly models. Models controlled
by an opposing player are enemy
models. When you move a model in the
Movement phase, it may not be moved
within 1" of any enemy models.


"When you move a model in the movement phase" is the key phrase. This may be a loophole someone forgot to close but as is the Rules are VERY clear in this case. I just asked to verify that there is no Rule or FAQ i have overlooked to prevent this bs from happening. I dont like it, I wouldnt play it that way myself but I wont deny my opponent to use the rules as they are written.

Astra Milit..*blam* Astra Milliwhat, heretic? 
   
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Under the couch

Morkphoiz wrote:
I just asked to verify that there is no Rule or FAQ i have overlooked to prevent this bs from happening. .

And I gave you one. There is nothing in the VMT rules that allows you to use the Movement Phase rules for movement in the Shooting Phase, so you don't use them. In which case the suit can't utilise the bonus movement, because it has no way to resolve the movement.


Or, you assume you're supposed to move as if it is the Movement Phase.

 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 insaniak wrote:
Morkphoiz wrote:
I just asked to verify that there is no Rule or FAQ i have overlooked to prevent this bs from happening. .

And I gave you one. There is nothing in the VMT rules that allows you to use the Movement Phase rules for movement in the Shooting Phase, so you don't use them. In which case the suit can't utilise the bonus movement, because it has no way to resolve the movement.


Or, you assume you're supposed to move as if it is the Movement Phase.
The same can be said for Heroic Intervention. Are you arguing that Heroic Intervention is also broken? Or do you accept that when you move, you use the movement rules, but are not restricted by rules that explicitly say they only work in the Movement Phase?

Again, just moving is not the same as moving "as if" it were the movement phase. The FAQ is explicit and even used the word explicitly.

In fact, nothing in the "Make Charge Move" step "allows you to use the Movement Phase rules for movement in the Charge Phase" either. You can't have one without the other, so are you too arguing that no models may ever make charge moves?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/05/22 20:28:26


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+++++There are currently ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY FIVE (125) documents required to play Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
+++++List of "broken" RaW in Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Morkphoiz wrote:
 insaniak wrote:
Morkphoiz wrote:

It IS raw after all. Also in the Big FAQ they clarified that the nova reactor ability of the Riptide can't be used to move within 1" of the enemy. It is a different ability in a different phase but at the same time they clearly did not clarify this for the Thrusters.

If you're not using the rules for moving in the movement phase, how do you determine how to move the model?

The hardline RAW approach here, if you don't follow the movement phase rules, would be that the suit can't actually move in the shooting phase at all, since there is no rules mechanism provided to do so.


The more common sense approach would be to assume that the rule is intended to be functional, and follow the rules for moving in the Movement phase.



"Immediatly move 6" " is all the Thrusters say. Even IF I applied the rules of the movement phase: Under "Enemy Models" the rules state:

Enemy Models
All models in the same army are
friendly models. Models controlled
by an opposing player are enemy
models. When you move a model in the
Movement phase, it may not be moved
within 1" of any enemy models.


"When you move a model in the movement phase" is the key phrase. This may be a loophole someone forgot to close but as is the Rules are VERY clear in this case. I just asked to verify that there is no Rule or FAQ i have overlooked to prevent this bs from happening. I dont like it, I wouldnt play it that way myself but I wont deny my opponent to use the rules as they are written.


Does it say :"immediately move 6" for Thrusters or "immediately move up to 6" "? If you don't get to reference the movement rules, if it's the former then you're forced to move exactly six inches.
   
Made in us
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife





Livermore, Ca

I think if you are using the movement phase rules to resolve your "non-movement phase" bonus movement, unless you are also told to ignore any of the restrictions of the movement phase rules, then you must abide by them.
In this case, VMT can't move within 1".
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 Sazzlefrats wrote:
I think if you are using the movement phase rules to resolve your "non-movement phase" bonus movement, unless you are also told to ignore any of the restrictions of the movement phase rules, then you must abide by them.
In this case, VMT can't move within 1".
That isn't how that works. Not all movement happens in the movement phase. The 1" rule explicitly only covers the Movement Phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 doctortom wrote:
Does it say :"immediately move 6" for Thrusters or "immediately move up to 6" "? If you don't get to reference the movement rules, if it's the former then you're forced to move exactly six inches.
The OP has the full, correct rule quoted. It's up to 6".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/22 20:50:12


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+++++There are currently ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY FIVE (125) documents required to play Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
+++++List of "broken" RaW in Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 BaconCatBug wrote:
ment happens in the movement phase. The 1" rule explicitly only covers the Movement Phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 doctortom wrote:
Does it say :"immediately move 6" for Thrusters or "immediately move up to 6" "? If you don't get to reference the movement rules, if it's the former then you're forced to move exactly six inches.
The OP has the full, correct rule quoted. It's up to 6".


Thanks, I was confused about that statement "immediately move 6" " with quotations about it. It ddidn't sound right.
   
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Under the couch

 BaconCatBug wrote:
The same can be said for Heroic Intervention. Are you arguing that Heroic Intervention is also broken?

Not Heroic Intervention specifically, but charge moves in general are broken in the current rules, since, again, they don't refer you to the Movement Phase rules, just tell you to move with no explanation as to how to do that. This would be one of the casualties of trimming the rules down to their bare bones... We're presumably expected to just assume that the normal movement rules apply, other than as specifically stated.


The difference between that and VMT is that the charge rules explicitly tell us to move within 1" of an enemy model.

 
   
Made in us
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife





Livermore, Ca

 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Sazzlefrats wrote:
I think if you are using the movement phase rules to resolve your "non-movement phase" bonus movement, unless you are also told to ignore any of the restrictions of the movement phase rules, then you must abide by them.
In this case, VMT can't move within 1".
That isn't how that works. Not all movement happens in the movement phase. The 1" rule explicitly only covers the Movement Phase.


The Rules Primer is where we get the rules for moving in the movement phase, and from it we get the charge phase rules for movement. This is my take on it, that its an extension of the movement phase "but with these exceptions". And reasonably, it should be the same for other non-movement phase movement, "but with their exceptions" being the only difference. So thats RAI and not RAW, but if we go RAW I'm going to be allowed to ignore a boatload of restrictions found in the movement phase rules that aren't repeated in the charge phase movement rules.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/22 22:08:20


 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 insaniak wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
The same can be said for Heroic Intervention. Are you arguing that Heroic Intervention is also broken?

Not Heroic Intervention specifically, but charge moves in general are broken in the current rules, since, again, they don't refer you to the Movement Phase rules, just tell you to move with no explanation as to how to do that. This would be one of the casualties of trimming the rules down to their bare bones... We're presumably expected to just assume that the normal movement rules apply, other than as specifically stated.


The difference between that and VMT is that the charge rules explicitly tell us to move within 1" of an enemy model.
By default there is no restriction on moving within 1" of the enemy. The rules for the Movement Phase say you can't do that in the movement phase. Therefore, there is no restriction on doing so outside of the movement phase.

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+++++There are currently ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY FIVE (125) documents required to play Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
+++++List of "broken" RaW in Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
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Under the couch

Sure. But there are also no rules telling you how to move outside of the movement phase, so unless you're using the movement phase rules, you're not moving.

 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 insaniak wrote:
Sure. But there are also no rules telling you how to move outside of the movement phase, so unless you're using the movement phase rules, you're not moving.
There are also no rules for what numbers need to be on the dice or what to roll them means either. Even the most literal of pure RaWists knows that there is just a certain level of "screw it" for the game to work because it's not written in Lojban
nor written by a competent technical writer, the difference is that in my view you should use as little "screw it" as possible, while others feel like they want to use as much "screw it" as possible to basically change how the game functions because they don't like how rules work, rather than making rules work at all.

Just want to point out that I've been censured in the past for that exact type of post you've just made and leave it at that, I'll take my leave of this thread before it devolves even further.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/05/22 22:29:03


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+++++There are currently ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY FIVE (125) documents required to play Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
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Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
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Under the couch

 BaconCatBug wrote:
 insaniak wrote:
Sure. But there are also no rules telling you how to move outside of the movement phase, so unless you're using the movement phase rules, you're not moving.
There are also no rules for what numbers need to be on the dice or what to roll them means either. Even the most literal of pure RaWists knows that there is just a certain level of "screw it" for the game to work, the difference is that in my view you should use as little as possible, while others feel like they want to use as much as possible to basically change how the game functions because they don't like how rules work, rather than making rules work at all.

This isn't an issue of trying to change as much as possible. It's making a logical inference in the presence of a gap in the rules.

It's certainly possible that GW intended VMT to allow you to charge, but in general when GW intend for that sort of thing to apply, the are very specific about it.



Just want to point out that I've been censured in the past for that exact type of post you've just made

No, you haven't. But by this point, your inability to distinguish the difference between 'Here's a rule that is written badly, and here's how I think it's supposed to work' and 'Here's a rule that is written badly, but you have to blindly follow it as written or the entire universe will descend into anarchy' is unsurprising, frankly.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/22 22:30:17


 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 insaniak wrote:
No, you haven't. But your inability to distinguish the difference between 'Here's a rule that is written badly, and here's how I think it's supposed to work' and 'Here's a rule that is written badly, but you have to blindly follow it as written or the entire universe will descend into anarchy' is unsurprising, frankly.
I know I said I'd leave it, but you've gone and built a straw-man here. You're equating "Rule doesn't work, therefore game breaks and you must accept it" ala multiple wounded models with "Rule works but doesn't do what I like, therefore we have to change it." Those are two very different positions and the latter is in fact explicitly told to us by GW as not the case.

Even if we ignore the whole "Following the rules of the game is the point of a game system to begin with", you can email GW and they will literally tell you "Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has." If that isn't Rules as Intended then I genuinely have no idea what Rules as Intended even means.

A rule can be written badly and it still be valid. Re-rolls before modifiers is a badly written rule, but it's still valid and confirmed to be valid. The FAQ capping a dice roll to a minimum of 1 is a badly written FAQ due to the side effects (Plasma scared of the dark, etc), but it's still valid and confirmed to be valid. Being able to Heroic Intervention into an AIRCRAFT that cannot be charged by Non-FLY with a Runthurd is a badly written rule, but it's still valid.

Also, I do know the difference, I just disagree that rules should be changed to how I "think" it should work, because that's a never-ending decent into sillyness (because I can just as easily "think" my Space Marines have 693 wounds each as any other rule someone can "think" of and in my eyes ignoring a rule and changing it to how it "should" work is valid for all rules if it's valid for one.).

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2019/05/22 22:50:52


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+++++There are currently ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY FIVE (125) documents required to play Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
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Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
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Made in us
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife





Livermore, Ca

Sounds like you are giving a straw man argument.

OP:How do you do VMT movement?
Bacon: Ignore all movement rules you might have ever read, and do what you want up to 6".

Which is definitely not following a permissive viewpoint.

You could have answered equally, follow the movement phase rules with any exceptions allowed by VMT. Which follows the construct of the rules.

Maybe the new mantra should be follow the rules in the previous section, and follow new exceptions when called upon?

   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 Sazzlefrats wrote:
Sounds like you are giving a straw man argument.

OP:How do you do VMT movement?
Bacon: Ignore all movement rules you might have ever read, and do what you want up to 6".

Which is definitely not following a permissive viewpoint.

You could have answered equally, follow the movement phase rules with any exceptions allowed by VMT. Which follows the construct of the rules.

Maybe the new mantra should be follow the rules in the previous section, and follow new exceptions when called upon?

You follow the movement rules found in the Movement Phase section, one of which is that "When you move a model in the Movement phase, it may not be moved within 1" of any enemy models.". Since you are not explicitly moving "as if" the Movement Phase (as per the FAQ), that rule does not apply when you make the VMT move, thus you may move models within 1" of enemy models as it is not the Movement Phase.

Please point to where I said "Ignore all movement rules you might have ever read, and do what you want up to 6"." in my previous posts.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/05/22 23:15:05


Add me on Discord: BaconCatBug#0294
+++++There are currently ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY FIVE (125) documents required to play Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
+++++List of "broken" RaW in Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities || Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. || Userscript to add a button to open all "[First Unread]" links on the page, hides the "[Blog View]" links, and adds a "Subscribed Threads" link to forum pages.  
   
Made in us
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'




Douglasville, GA

I think: "As little screw it as possible" isn't the best way to handle RAW. Rather, I'd prefer "As little screw it as everyone involved can agree on." In the case of the OP topic, I believe that using VMT to move within 1" on an opponent's unit and denying them the chance to OW would probably be something that they wouldn't agree to. And, in the end, if you end up pissing off the folks you play this game with, you're gonna run out of partners very quickly.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/22 23:39:18


 
   
Made in us
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife





Livermore, Ca

What you write, reads the same as ignore... don't use that as part of your argument and I won't spell it out that that is exactly what you are doing. RAW is useful to a point, so is RAI.

Also, how do you move vertically with VMT, without using the movement rules? Can you jump over models? oh wait... ignore any restrictions previously covered.... So....

Can I castle with my opponents pieces with VMT movement? Land on a vehicle? How about death from above. Nothing stops me. What if I move 6" vertically and stop there... in mid air, so that I can't be charged by my opponent?! Maybe I want to move within 1" so I prevent my opponent from shooting me next turn with that unit? See where I'm going?

I don't see any difference in any of those scenarios, except I think my opponent will throw a book at me. The most plausible is of course move within 1". But that's not legal except in the charge phase, which this isn't.

Why does each new scenario require a complete copy of the appropriate rules section (movement phase rules), to keep someone in check?

   
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Missionary On A Mission




Tacoma, WA, USA

I have to say that BaconCatBug is completely right here. The rules for how to move a model are in the Movement Phase section of the rules. That doesn't mean they only apply during the Movement Phase. This is exceptionally clear since they include statements like "When you move during the Movement phase..." After all, if the rules for moving in the Movement Phase section of the rules only apply to the Movement phase, then there is no reason to include that statement in any rule in the Movement Phase section of the rules.
   
Made in us
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'




Douglasville, GA

I'm just saying that, when you play a game that involves others, you have to be reasonable with rule interpretations.
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Cutting stuff up and bunging it back together in new and interesting ways.






Under the couch

 alextroy wrote:
I have to say that BaconCatBug is completely right here. The rules for how to move a model are in the Movement Phase section of the rules. That doesn't mean they only apply during the Movement Phase. This is exceptionally clear since they include statements like "When you move during the Movement phase..." After all, if the rules for moving in the Movement Phase section of the rules only apply to the Movement phase, then there is no reason to include that statement in any rule in the Movement Phase section of the rules.

You appear to have misunderstood. Nobody is saying that the rules for movement should only apply in the movement phase. What's being said is that this is where you wind up if you try to take a literal RAW approach, and that instead we should assume that you apply the rules from the Movement Phase whenever a model is allowed to move, unless a rule specifically says otherwise.

BCB's claim is that we should instead disregard any rules that specifically mention that they apply to the Movement Phase, which would allow you to move into charge range, thus circumventing Overwatch. Which leads us back to the RAW issue above - All of the rules for how to move models belong to the Movement Phase, by virtue of being specifically included in that section of the rules, and so his interpretation is essentially just picking and choosing which rules he wants to apply.

The cleaner approach is to assume that you move as if it is the Movement Phase, even though it doesn't explicitly say that in the VMT rule.

 
   
Made in us
Focused Fire Warrior




NY

Sazzle was helpful in giving examples of unusual movements, thanks for that. Because otherwise Insaniak's argument sounded asinine to me. I thought Insaniak was implying that the word "move" was defined in the movement phase section and that the word move is too ambiguous to understand without a direct reference.

So yeah, for a while I was on BCB's side. That move up to 6" is pretty straight forward. Though I do like the argument that a rule given in a section does not mean it applies only to that section (organization wise that's where it would go anyways).

IMO RAW is that a VMT model can be moved anyways at all unless the movement phase rules state that the basic restrictions (no overlapping models, walking on air) are addressed without specifically saying "in the movement phase". That said, nobody should be such a that guy and try to pull this waacy rule on their opponent without prior consent. The debate would stall the game as we see here.
   
Made in us
Missionary On A Mission




Tacoma, WA, USA

 insaniak wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
I have to say that BaconCatBug is completely right here. The rules for how to move a model are in the Movement Phase section of the rules. That doesn't mean they only apply during the Movement Phase. This is exceptionally clear since they include statements like "When you move during the Movement phase..." After all, if the rules for moving in the Movement Phase section of the rules only apply to the Movement phase, then there is no reason to include that statement in any rule in the Movement Phase section of the rules.

You appear to have misunderstood. Nobody is saying that the rules for movement should only apply in the movement phase. What's being said is that this is where you wind up if you try to take a literal RAW approach, and that instead we should assume that you apply the rules from the Movement Phase whenever a model is allowed to move, unless a rule specifically says otherwise.

BCB's claim is that we should instead disregard any rules that specifically mention that they apply to the Movement Phase, which would allow you to move into charge range, thus circumventing Overwatch. Which leads us back to the RAW issue above - All of the rules for how to move models belong to the Movement Phase, by virtue of being specifically included in that section of the rules, and so his interpretation is essentially just picking and choosing which rules he wants to apply.

The cleaner approach is to assume that you move as if it is the Movement Phase, even though it doesn't explicitly say that in the VMT rule.
Following this "assumption", you can't move within 1" of an enemy model during Heroic Intervention, Pile-In or Consolidation moves. None of these explicitly or implicitly allow you to do so. Yet we all know you are allowed to do so, because that is the point of all three of them.

This all being said, I'm fairly confident that the Vectored Maneuvering Thrusters isn't intended to allow you to "charge" the enemy and is another of GW's famous oversights. Ironically, since it is not an "as if during the Movement Phase" ability, you can't benefit from Fly while using it either.
   
 
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