Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I'm short on funds and don't have access to BCP lists, but it looks like the Thousand Sons player packing tons of rubrics (and 58 or so Tzaangors) took #1 again. Necrons went undefeated for #2 with Doomscythes, Immortlals, and Arks. #3 was Castellan / Crusader / Gallant.

It seems like they also had all FAQs in place.

Lots of generic Imperium / Chaos / Aeldari that I can't view. Ultramarines did not do well, but I don't know their lists yet.

Anyone else have insight to the tournament?

Worth noting the TSons list beat a triple crusader/triple command punisher list in the final. On a table with 6 enclosed ruins, on a 5 objective mission, 4 of which could be held from inside the buildings...

Tzangors are no supprise - their bombs completely control the game. Rubrics are a surprise though. They are pretty dang bad even with the new bolter rule. I guess they aren't terrible at objective holding but you get about 20 cultists for the cost of a rubric squad so...I don't see why they are taken. Likely they are taken to exploit the terrain (easier to hide inside magic box and score objective points).

For someone who's not entirely "on it" with regards to the tournament scene, how do these enclosed ruins/magical boxes work? I'm assuming you just set up your models in the box during deployment and after that nothing can get in or out, but am I missing anything else?
More positively, if I liked the models more I'd definitely indulge in some doom scythes, their stratagem is really helping the faction pull itself out of the bottom tiers post-CA. As it stands tho, I might buy a pack of 3 croissants for friendlies instead .

Straight_Memer wrote:
Worth noting the TSons list beat a triple crusader/triple command punisher list in the final. On a table with 6 enclosed ruins, on a 5 objective mission, 4 of which could be held from inside the buildings...

Lol. What's the point of even playing that game out? Knights player might as well have looked at the table, said nope, shook the other guy's hand, and said GG.

Maybe the event had sponsors? Sponsors often make you fight, even if the best you can get out of a fight is a lose and the worse an injury.

In more practical terms, knight dude could also be part of the group, if your designated driver is still playing may as well play yourself too, not like you have anything better to do. Plus you can also try to give up as few points as possible, maybe not in this situation, but in some games it is an option.

Straight_Memer wrote:
Worth noting the TSons list beat a triple crusader/triple command punisher list in the final. On a table with 6 enclosed ruins, on a 5 objective mission, 4 of which could be held from inside the buildings...

Why does ITC keep insisting on breaking the game with these stupid boxes?
Oh wait, FLG sells them as terrain pieces....

so stupid.

Straight_Memer wrote:
Worth noting the TSons list beat a triple crusader/triple command punisher list in the final. On a table with 6 enclosed ruins, on a 5 objective mission, 4 of which could be held from inside the buildings...

This is why ITC doesn’t allow objectives inside buildings that aren’t open and are considered “closed” on the first floor

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

Straight_Memer wrote:
Worth noting the TSons list beat a triple crusader/triple command punisher list in the final. On a table with 6 enclosed ruins, on a 5 objective mission, 4 of which could be held from inside the buildings...

This is why ITC doesn’t allow objectives inside buildings that aren’t open and are considered “closed” on the first floor

Yeah, but they can still be close enough that the units inside can hold them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Phaeron Gukk wrote:
For someone who's not entirely "on it" with regards to the tournament scene, how do these enclosed ruins/magical boxes work? I'm assuming you just set up your models in the box during deployment and after that nothing can get in or out, but am I missing anything else?
More positively, if I liked the models more I'd definitely indulge in some doom scythes, their stratagem is really helping the faction pull itself out of the bottom tiers post-CA. As it stands tho, I might buy a pack of 3 croissants for friendlies instead .

In ITC, the first floor or ruins block LOS. If there is a roof, it also blocks LOS; so a unit inside said “box” can’t be shot at. You can move through the walls as per normal terrain rules, but players will then position their models inside so that units can’t complete a charge without their bases overlapping the wall which prevents the assisting unit from being placed. The only way then to kill said unit is shooting or psychic powers that ignore line of sight.

 greyknight12 wrote:

 Phaeron Gukk wrote:
For someone who's not entirely "on it" with regards to the tournament scene, how do these enclosed ruins/magical boxes work? I'm assuming you just set up your models in the box during deployment and after that nothing can get in or out, but am I missing anything else?
More positively, if I liked the models more I'd definitely indulge in some doom scythes, their stratagem is really helping the faction pull itself out of the bottom tiers post-CA. As it stands tho, I might buy a pack of 3 croissants for friendlies instead .

In ITC, the first floor or ruins block LOS. If there is a roof, it also blocks LOS; so a unit inside said “box” can’t be shot at. You can move through the walls as per normal terrain rules, but players will then position their models inside so that units can’t complete a charge without their bases overlapping the wall which prevents the assisting unit from being placed. The only way then to kill said unit is shooting or psychic powers that ignore line of sight.

They can still be charged.

From the ITC terrain Guidelines.

Units that can move through the walls of a ruin to assault a unit on the other side of an enclosed or unenclosed ruin wall (such as infantry) may still complete their charge even if the wall would prohibit the model's base from fitting within 1" of the unit on the other side. Simply use a dice or other indicator to show where the charging model or unit would be, and place the charging model as close to that point as possible. In other words, players cannot block a charge by placing their models in such a way as to prohibit enemy models from getting within 1" of the target unit that would otherwise be able to reach them.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Tzangors are no supprise - their bombs completely control the game. Rubrics are a surprise though. They are pretty dang bad even with the new bolter rule. I guess they aren't terrible at objective holding but you get about 20 cultists for the cost of a rubric squad so...I don't see why they are taken. Likely they are taken to exploit the terrain (easier to hide inside magic box and score objective points).

It's smite spam. They're there to lay down non-increasing over time smites.

In essence the Rubrics hide out of LOS on objectives and provide screens for all the characters in his lists. Rubrics are amazing at holding objectives way better than cultists as they can have a 2+ save against most stuff that ignores LOS that is used to clear out objectives. They also make great screens for characters as they can hide outside LOS but still be closer to the enemy so they can't shoot your characters. As far as the tzaangors go fully buffed up with glamour and weaver there are not many armies out there that can kill a full unit of them in one turn so you can auto pass moral to deny your opponent the kill something in their turn if they are the only unit they can get too. It is also really easy to score the reacon and engineers secondary objectives with the list as well. He did a podcast about how he runs the list after the Alamo GT.

https://soundcloud.com/user-909923273/tizcan-podcast-episode-8-alamo-gt-tournament-stats-new-releases

This might be mystifying to many, but Power armour really isn't that bad when taken en masse. The problem with power armour is that it has easy answers, and taking a unit or two will just get wiped, but your opponent's entire army isn't going to be those answers, and once YOU primary those units, you now have a board of resilient guys. As Nick Nanavati said, the reason he had success with marines that others couldn't find is because they misunderstand the nature of power armour and don't take enough of it. It's also how Don Hooson made Blightlords win the BAO and completely blew dakka's mind that day too.

With this in mind, Rubrics really aren't that bad, they are actually pretty good. This list has been undefeated for like 11 events in a row or something now, there's clearly more to it than a lucky table, but I'm sure the general Dakka population will stick to their guns on something they don't understand as usual.

Shouldn't 1ksons be dieing really fast with just power armour save, even when in a building they still would be droping to +5 or less save on normal dudes?

Karol wrote:
Shouldn't 1ksons be dieing really fast with just power armour save, even when in a building they still would be droping to +5 or less save on normal dudes?

ITC rules often means they cannot be shot at if they are in enclosed ruins or on the first floor of a ruin.

That is kind of a different how ETC is played. Against mortars and most indirect stuff that would make them realy powerful.

 SHUPPET wrote:
This might be mystifying to many, but Power armour really isn't that bad when taken en masse. The problem with power armour is that it has easy answers, and taking a unit or two will just get wiped, but your opponent's entire army isn't going to be those answers, and once YOU primary those units, you now have a board of resilient guys. As Nick Nanavati said, the reason he had success with marines that others couldn't find is because they misunderstand the nature of power armour and don't take enough of it. It's also how Don Hooson made Blightlords win the BAO and completely blew dakka's mind that day too.

With this in mind, Rubrics really aren't that bad, they are actually pretty good. This list has been undefeated for like 11 events in a row or something now, there's clearly more to it than a lucky table, but I'm sure the general Dakka population will stick to their guns on something they don't understand as usual.

This. He's faced Castellan/Crusader lists with plenty of IG as well. Magic boxes can help against unprepared lists, but that's it.

 Horst wrote:

Karol wrote:
Shouldn't 1ksons be dieing really fast with just power armour save, even when in a building they still would be droping to +5 or less save on normal dudes?

ITC rules often means they cannot be shot at if they are in enclosed ruins or on the first floor of a ruin.

Rubrics also have an invul save

Don't they cost like 20 pts each? I guess they are way better then I thought them to be. I thought they are just 20pts for normal smite and better bolters. Good for them.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
This might be mystifying to many, but Power armour really isn't that bad when taken en masse. The problem with power armour is that it has easy answers, and taking a unit or two will just get wiped, but your opponent's entire army isn't going to be those answers, and once YOU primary those units, you now have a board of resilient guys. As Nick Nanavati said, the reason he had success with marines that others couldn't find is because they misunderstand the nature of power armour and don't take enough of it. It's also how Don Hooson made Blightlords win the BAO and completely blew dakka's mind that day too.

With this in mind, Rubrics really aren't that bad, they are actually pretty good. This list has been undefeated for like 11 events in a row or something now, there's clearly more to it than a lucky table, but I'm sure the general Dakka population will stick to their guns on something they don't understand as usual.

This. He's faced Castellan/Crusader lists with plenty of IG as well. Magic boxes can help against unprepared lists, but that's it.

Tzangors crush knights....WTF is a knight going to do against 20 4++ saves with -1 to hit Who also have -1 AP attacks. It's really just Tzangors. Rubrics are straight bad. 2 20 man units charging turn 1 and 2. Your whole army is pretty much occupied dealing with those. Because they fight twice for CP and they are straight up crushing you would double phases of VotLW.
LOL at success with marines. Pretty sure Nick wins games for some other reason than his list building. Plus player skill only gets you so far. If you get what I am saying.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:
Don't they cost like 20 pts each? I guess they are way better then I thought them to be. I thought they are just 20pts for normal smite and better bolters. Good for them.

Nah they are bad. The sargent doesn't even get a bolt gun and they only deal 1 MW unless they roll a 10 or more. Know what easily could have done that wound? A bolt gun that the sargent doesn't have. All is dust is a particularly crappy rule. There are only a few scary 1 damage weapons that have high AP. Off the top of my head...Castellen Robots? Nothing else really striking me here. Everything else just ignores all is dust or didn't care to begin with because it is AP 0 and you are probably in cover. -2 AP bolt gun isn't bad but it's not worth those points.

Nah they are bad. The sargent doesn't even get a bolt gun and they only deal 1 MW unless they roll a 10 or more. Know what easily could have done that wound? A bolt gun that the sargent doesn't have. All is dust is a particularly crappy rule. There are only a few scary 1 damage weapons that have high AP. Off the top of my head...Castellen Robots? Nothing else really striking me here. Everything else just ignores all is dust or didn't care to begin with because it is AP 0 and you are probably in cover. -2 AP bolt gun isn't bad but it's not worth those points.

As I said before, I don't know much about them. To me they seem much better then strikes or termintors with a build in inv.. They seem ok to me, They sure seem to be ok enough to be run in tournament list. Plus my dudes can roll 12 and they will still do 1MW at shorter range. Again I do understand that a 1kson is not a dark reaper casting smite, while carrying a inv generator.

To be fair I think the only reason this list is working is due to the ITC terrain rules. In that rule set they are definitely not terrible. Are they mass murdering your opponents army? Definitely not but they are good at hiding outside of LOS on objectives and hiding in front of your army so that your characters which are doing the bulk of the work don't get shot off the board. All is Dust is also a very nice ability to have as it neuters guard mortars one of the most prevalent weapons in the game. I have had Rubrics stand on objectives outside LOS but not in cover all game and they have survived numerous rounds of mortars. Are they super OMG BROKEN AMAZING!!!!!111ONEone. No but they are also not useless. Edit: I would also take the 1 mortal wound over a bolter any day of the week it is good against ALL targets. Also I usually give my Rubrics the flame pistol as it gives them a bit more umf in CC and against gakky chaff units that attempt to tie them up and swarm them down.

 Xenomancers wrote:
LOL at success with marines. Pretty sure Nick wins games for some other reason than his list building. Plus player skill only gets you so far. If you get what I am saying.

Yes, Nick wins his games with Marines for the exact same reasons you lose your games with Marines - player skill, as you say, but also list building too. Nick Nanavati doesn't get any benefit from magic powers, superhuman reflexes, or 700 APM when he plays, he didn't do anything you couldn't have also done, he simply shows off what the army is capable in the hands of a good player, pointing at the skill behind his opinions does not serve as an argument against why its wrong, it supports why it's right. And when someone who achieved the success that he did with pure Space Marines gives free advice on how best to run marines... I know this is an anathema to you, but you might consider listening instead of trying to shout down the concept of anything in power armor actually being good, and consider that on this topic you definitely are not the cleverest person in the discussion right now.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


This. He's faced Castellan/Crusader lists with plenty of IG as well. Magic boxes can help against unprepared lists, but that's it.

Tzangors crush knights....WTF is a knight going to do against 20 4++ saves with -1 to hit Who also have -1 AP attacks. It's really just Tzangors. Rubrics are straight bad. 2 20 man units charging turn 1 and 2. Your whole army is pretty much occupied dealing with those. Because they fight twice for CP and they are straight up crushing you would double phases of VotLW.

That's a very interesting theory.

So how do you explain his other wins that day, and the fact that the exact same list unchanged is undefeated at like 11 different events across America in a row now?




Here's a (literal) pro tip: It's not the rubrics who are bad

Yes, Nick wins his games with Marines for the exact same reasons you lose your games with Marines - player skill, as you say, but also list building too. Nick Nanavati doesn't get any benefit from magic powers, superhuman reflexes, or 700 APM when he plays, he didn't do anything you couldn't have also done, he simply shows off what the army is capable in the hands of a good player, pointing at the skill behind his opinions does not serve as an argument against why its wrong, it supports why it's right. And when someone who achieved the success that he did with pure Space Marines gives free advice on how best to run marines... I know this is an anathema to you, but you might consider listening instead of trying to shout down the concept of anything in power armor actually being good, and consider that on this topic you definitely are not the cleverest person in the discussion right now.

Where can someone read those advice, and are they applicable to all marines or just 1ksons?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
This might be mystifying to many, but Power armour really isn't that bad when taken en masse. The problem with power armour is that it has easy answers, and taking a unit or two will just get wiped, but your opponent's entire army isn't going to be those answers, and once YOU primary those units, you now have a board of resilient guys. As Nick Nanavati said, the reason he had success with marines that others couldn't find is because they misunderstand the nature of power armour and don't take enough of it. It's also how Don Hooson made Blightlords win the BAO and completely blew dakka's mind that day too.

With this in mind, Rubrics really aren't that bad, they are actually pretty good. This list has been undefeated for like 11 events in a row or something now, there's clearly more to it than a lucky table, but I'm sure the general Dakka population will stick to their guns on something they don't understand as usual.

This. He's faced Castellan/Crusader lists with plenty of IG as well. Magic boxes can help against unprepared lists, but that's it.

Tzangors crush knights....WTF is a knight going to do against 20 4++ saves with -1 to hit Who also have -1 AP attacks. It's really just Tzangors. Rubrics are straight bad. 2 20 man units charging turn 1 and 2. Your whole army is pretty much occupied dealing with those. Because they fight twice for CP and they are straight up crushing you would double phases of VotLW.
LOL at success with marines. Pretty sure Nick wins games for some other reason than his list building. Plus player skill only gets you so far. If you get what I am saying.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:
Don't they cost like 20 pts each? I guess they are way better then I thought them to be. I thought they are just 20pts for normal smite and better bolters. Good for them.

Nah they are bad. The sargent doesn't even get a bolt gun and they only deal 1 MW unless they roll a 10 or more. Know what easily could have done that wound? A bolt gun that the sargent doesn't have. All is dust is a particularly crappy rule. There are only a few scary 1 damage weapons that have high AP. Off the top of my head...Castellen Robots? Nothing else really striking me here. Everything else just ignores all is dust or didn't care to begin with because it is AP 0 and you are probably in cover. -2 AP bolt gun isn't bad but it's not worth those points.

Yea, so...likely only one unit would make it into combat with a knight - two couldn't fit anyway. With prescience and VotLW they'll do 8 wounds. Fight again another 6 or so at the end of the phase. That's 6 CP at that moment. The other unit cannot have VotLW or prescience.

I'd hardly call that crushing knights and you still have yet to kill it or deal with any other knights or chaff.

They are 18 points - it's relatively telling how little people know about rubrics. The sargaent has a free AP2 pistol. A bolt gun that the "sargeant doesn't have" would do 0.15 wounds IF it got to shoot twice. So, no - an AP2 boltgun comes nowhere near as effective as a single mortal wound against knights.