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Made in us
Been Around the Block





Hi there. Not sure if this is the right place for this kind of topic or not, but if there's a better subforum to discuss this topic, please feel free to move it. With that out of the way, let's get started.

I recently got myself a table that while not big enough for miniature wargaming, it can still serve as a nice table to use for action figure dioramas (another hobby I've gotten into recently), which got me thinking. What exactly is the ideal wargaming table and what recommendations do you fellows have in mind? To give you a better idea of what I'm looking for, the miniature wargames that I'm primarily interested in are 40k, Team Yankee, Monsterpocalypse and the FFG Star Wars trio of Legion, Armada and X-Wing. So anything that can accommodate large battles is fine by me.

Feel free to discuss and recommend miniature wargaming tables among yourselves and have a good day.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/06/07 20:23:37


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Massachusetts

I built 2 tables using...prebuilt ends?? The first one was a twin headboard and footboard that held a 4x4 top easily. Some 2x6s bolted to the bed parts made the whole thing work. I gained a storage shelf underneath with a simple plywood shelf. I tossed a 4x6 when I bought one from a GW store that was closing but I was worried about the ends being under supported. So I built another one using crib parts I found. Again, I used 2x6s for base support. This one is much nicer.

I can use the 4x6 top for anything I want. 40k, Lego models, wood doll house building, Really nice.


You can get pre built wood saw horses or plastic ones from Home Depot or Lowes. Toss your preferred size plywood top on them and boom. Simple table.

<--Bolt on Cuteness: S:20,No armour save, no invul save, no cover save, Range:unlimited---DEAL
Enough too have fun
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







The easiest mistake to make with a wargaming table is to forget to include extra space around the "table" area that you're going to be using for your game.

For instance, if you're going to play a 2000 point game of 40k, you need a 4x6 or 4x8 "table" area, an area to put books and such, and additional area for the two players' armies to be placed before deployment (or to hold reserves). Even for games that use a 3x3 "table" area like Malifaux, you still need the extra space around the play area.

   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





jason1977 wrote:I built 2 tables using...prebuilt ends?? The first one was a twin headboard and footboard that held a 4x4 top easily. Some 2x6s bolted to the bed parts made the whole thing work. I gained a storage shelf underneath with a simple plywood shelf. I tossed a 4x6 when I bought one from a GW store that was closing but I was worried about the ends being under supported. So I built another one using crib parts I found. Again, I used 2x6s for base support. This one is much nicer.

I can use the 4x6 top for anything I want. 40k, Lego models, wood doll house building, Really nice.


You can get pre built wood saw horses or plastic ones from Home Depot or Lowes. Toss your preferred size plywood top on them and boom. Simple table.


Yeah, I'm not handy enough to build my own wargaming table, so I'll most likely buy a pre-made 4x8 table instead. EDIT: Forgot to mention that another tabletop miniature wargame that I'm interested in is Monsterpocalypse. So that's another game to take into consideration. I've since added that game to the OP and will continue to do so for any wargames I forgot to mention.

solkan wrote:The easiest mistake to make with a wargaming table is to forget to include extra space around the "table" area that you're going to be using for your game.

For instance, if you're going to play a 2000 point game of 40k, you need a 4x6 or 4x8 "table" area, an area to put books and such, and additional area for the two players' armies to be placed before deployment (or to hold reserves). Even for games that use a 3x3 "table" area like Malifaux, you still need the extra space around the play area.



Is 2000 points the max amount of points most 40k players go for for large scale battles? How many individual soldiers/units does that entail depending on the army in question? To be more specific, what's the difference between 2000 points worth of Space Marines vs 2000 points worth of Imperial Guardsmen? (You could give rundowns on 2000 point Xenos armies if you wanted.) Why not higher point thresholds like 4000, 6000 or 8000 points for that matter?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/03 18:01:53


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Steelcity

Pre-made 4x8 table? That's really not a thing in the world of "tables".

Just buy 2x folding tables from a home office store like Staples or whatever. They're durable, collapsible and reusable for things other than wargaming. Since we have advanced to an age of roll out terrain mats, there is no real reason to need some kind of crazy large piece of plywood or foam table anymore.

Functional is important when you're dealing with a house of limited space.

Set it up, roll out the mat and play.

https://www.staples.com/Staples-8-Folding-Table/product_749943



Keeper of the DomBox
Warhammer Armies - Click to see galleries of fully painted armies
32,000, 19,000, Renegades - 10,000 , 7,500,  
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






Not sure if going from a textured tabletop with a contoured battlefield to a flat map is an "advance", but mats are handy if you don't have the space, that's true.
   
Made in gb
Mysterious Techpriest




United Kingdom

I'm in the UK, and our gaming club uses IKEA ADILS/LINNMON tables with 2x4 or 3x4 foot boards on top (then mats on the boards). They're cheap and the legs can come off so they can be stored flat.
   
Made in us
Twisting Tzeentch Horror





Kildare, Ireland

 K9ofChaos wrote:
What exactly is the ideal wargaming table and what recommendations do you fellows have in mind? To give you a better idea of what I'm looking for, the miniature wargames that I'm primarily interested in are 40k, Team Yankee, Monsterpocalypse and the FFG Star Wars trio of Legion, Armada and X-Wing. So anything that can accommodate large battles is fine by me.

Feel free to discuss and recommend miniature wargaming tables among yourselves and have a good day.


Ideally:
Spoiler:
you'd have a richly varnished oaken table with inset brass laurels and wirework. This would have a burgundy felt lined recessed area of 8x4 or 6x4 and a lip surrounding this to balance reference materials, reserve models etc. Circular holes at the corners and a little trimming would loosely form the crux terminatus. The wood polish would be scented like Old Spice.

Terrain would have metal strips underneath which would clamp to the array of magnets underneath for easy storage.

John Blanche / Karl Kopiniski originals of 8x4 or 6x4 would hang on the walls surrounding the table. On the back of these artworks would be a modelled battlefield, each more impressive than the last. Polluted wasteland, Orbital Forge, Crystal cavern, frozen mountain, Crimson forest, Daemon world. You would carefully place one artwork into the table recess to play, the others would provide ambience.

Lighting in the room would be controlled through home assistant voice activation and would allow colder tones for an ice world, warmer tones for a desert etc.

A projector mounted above the table would project deployment zone lines and table borders onto the battlefield. If you wish to play killteam for example, it projects a 22x30 inch rectangle anywhere on the board of your choosing.


More practically, having a board that covers a smaller table works fine. The smaller the table beneath, the more rigid your 'board' needs to be. If you have a 2x3 table, you'll have a foot hanging over each side from a 6x8. With smaller overhang you can get away with polystyrene board unsupported, corriboard (corrugated plastic used in election posters), with more overhang you will need to support with wooden battens.

A fully modelled battlefield presents storage issues. If you divide it up (like the realm of battle) you'll get immersion destroying lines where they connect.
If using mats, dividing the supporting board won't produce this problem, but you are back to a 2d surface.

Ideal Practical solution - low space (apartment, room at your folks)
Spoiler:
3x 2x4 boards. Battlemat(s). The boards can also be textured or painted if desired.


Ideal Practical solution - med space: Playing in your kitchen, some space for storage
Spoiler:
6x4 rigid board. Battlemat(s). The board is painted as a space board on one side(xwing), crackle paint desert on the other. Alternately, do a painting/stick a canvas print on one side and hang it on the wall.


Ideal Practical solution - high space (dedicated games room):
Spoiler:
6x4 modelled board. Battlemat(s) for variety. The board is modelled as a frozen world, with purple crystal seams embedded in dark rocks. This will facilitate all your non space wargames and provide plenty of visual interest/plot device. It will accommodate a wide variety of terrain elements like forests and hills, buildings and (frozen) rivers, machinery, subterranean entrances.


Ideal Practical solution - super high space (mansion):
Spoiler:
I will live in your mansion and make terrain/play games with you on demand.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I recently went through an ordeal of trying to figure out how I wanted to build a tabletop board. I eventually settled on the following:

-Three 2x4 sections of 1/2" MDF
-Cabinet latches
-A 4x6 neoprene battle mat
-Scatter terrain, plus hills made from insulation foam
-My dining table

I screwed the cabinet latches into the MDF, so that the three sections can be joined together. So I rest the MDF sections on the dining table (latches on the underside, where they overhang the table), latch them together so they stay put, and put the battle mat over top, then terrain.

It's easier to store than a single 6x4 board, the terrain layout is flexible, and I can easily make it a 4x4 board with just two MDF segments and hanging the excess battle mat length off the sides.

It's not as pretty as a custom-made table comprised of modular foam tiles- and I intend to make such a table at some point- but it's practical for gaming and can be used for a wide variety of systems.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/05 12:51:08


 
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle






OP- you're best off shelling out for the 6x4 folding table from UrbanMatz. It fits most standard wargaming mats perfectly and can be folded away so storage isn't an issue.

Worth every penny that I paid for it IMO. Beats a flimsy wallpaper table easily.



A GW fan walks into a bar, buys the same drink as yesterday but pays more.

""Unite" is a human word, ... join me or die."

If you break apart my posts line by line I will not read them. 
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter






There is no such thing as a universally ideal war gaming table. or any furniture for that matter.

It all entirely depends on your individual situation.

for a store simple wood or metal racks with storage space underneath with a Velcro skirt to keep things hidden would be the most professional.

For those in Europe or a very small gaming space, folding tables would be better.

For those E Famous streamers and tubers. probably a larger fixed table with extra space off the table to allow more visibility on the board while streaming.

those are some of the considerations i can think of.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/05 20:33:45


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




South New Jersey

Basically what Desubot said. When I was younger and living at my parents place, they let me keep four 4x2 MDF boards to put on the table tennis table. It was perfect to roll out my GW battlemat on.

   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





Kirasu wrote:Pre-made 4x8 table? That's really not a thing in the world of "tables".

Just buy 2x folding tables from a home office store like Staples or whatever. They're durable, collapsible and reusable for things other than wargaming. Since we have advanced to an age of roll out terrain mats, there is no real reason to need some kind of crazy large piece of plywood or foam table anymore.

Functional is important when you're dealing with a house of limited space.

Set it up, roll out the mat and play.

https://www.staples.com/Staples-8-Folding-Table/product_749943




beast_gts wrote:I'm in the UK, and our gaming club uses IKEA ADILS/LINNMON tables with 2x4 or 3x4 foot boards on top (then mats on the boards). They're cheap and the legs can come off so they can be stored flat.


Grimtuff wrote:OP- you're best off shelling out for the 6x4 folding table from UrbanMatz. It fits most standard wargaming mats perfectly and can be folded away so storage isn't an issue.

Worth every penny that I paid for it IMO. Beats a flimsy wallpaper table easily.


I'll definitely look into getting tables from those three (Staples, IKEA, UrbanMatz) retailers. Though I've noticed that the UrbanMatz prices are in Euros. But I've shopped for Action Figures on AmiAmi, HobbyLinkJapan and other Japanese online retailers before, so I'm familiar with paying shipping fees. But what exactly is the conversion rate between US Dollars and Euros?

=Angel= wrote:
 K9ofChaos wrote:
What exactly is the ideal wargaming table and what recommendations do you fellows have in mind? To give you a better idea of what I'm looking for, the miniature wargames that I'm primarily interested in are 40k, Team Yankee, Monsterpocalypse and the FFG Star Wars trio of Legion, Armada and X-Wing. So anything that can accommodate large battles is fine by me.

Feel free to discuss and recommend miniature wargaming tables among yourselves and have a good day.


Ideally:
Spoiler:
you'd have a richly varnished oaken table with inset brass laurels and wirework. This would have a burgundy felt lined recessed area of 8x4 or 6x4 and a lip surrounding this to balance reference materials, reserve models etc. Circular holes at the corners and a little trimming would loosely form the crux terminatus. The wood polish would be scented like Old Spice.

Terrain would have metal strips underneath which would clamp to the array of magnets underneath for easy storage.

John Blanche / Karl Kopiniski originals of 8x4 or 6x4 would hang on the walls surrounding the table. On the back of these artworks would be a modelled battlefield, each more impressive than the last. Polluted wasteland, Orbital Forge, Crystal cavern, frozen mountain, Crimson forest, Daemon world. You would carefully place one artwork into the table recess to play, the others would provide ambience.

Lighting in the room would be controlled through home assistant voice activation and would allow colder tones for an ice world, warmer tones for a desert etc.

A projector mounted above the table would project deployment zone lines and table borders onto the battlefield. If you wish to play killteam for example, it projects a 22x30 inch rectangle anywhere on the board of your choosing.


More practically, having a board that covers a smaller table works fine. The smaller the table beneath, the more rigid your 'board' needs to be. If you have a 2x3 table, you'll have a foot hanging over each side from a 6x8. With smaller overhang you can get away with polystyrene board unsupported, corriboard (corrugated plastic used in election posters), with more overhang you will need to support with wooden battens.

A fully modelled battlefield presents storage issues. If you divide it up (like the realm of battle) you'll get immersion destroying lines where they connect.
If using mats, dividing the supporting board won't produce this problem, but you are back to a 2d surface.

Ideal Practical solution - low space (apartment, room at your folks)
Spoiler:
3x 2x4 boards. Battlemat(s). The boards can also be textured or painted if desired.


Ideal Practical solution - med space: Playing in your kitchen, some space for storage
Spoiler:
6x4 rigid board. Battlemat(s). The board is painted as a space board on one side(xwing), crackle paint desert on the other. Alternately, do a painting/stick a canvas print on one side and hang it on the wall.


Ideal Practical solution - high space (dedicated games room):
Spoiler:
6x4 modelled board. Battlemat(s) for variety. The board is modelled as a frozen world, with purple crystal seams embedded in dark rocks. This will facilitate all your non space wargames and provide plenty of visual interest/plot device. It will accommodate a wide variety of terrain elements like forests and hills, buildings and (frozen) rivers, machinery, subterranean entrances.


Ideal Practical solution - super high space (mansion):
Spoiler:
I will live in your mansion and make terrain/play games with you on demand.


Jeez, that's a lot to take in, but thanks for being so thorough. I'm leaning somewhere between med space and high space regarding the ideal practical solution.

Desubot wrote:There is no such thing as a universally ideal war gaming table. or any furniture for that matter.

It all entirely depends on your individual situation.

for a store simple wood or metal racks with storage space underneath with a Velcro skirt to keep things hidden would be the most professional.

For those in Europe or a very small gaming space, folding tables would be better.

For those E Famous streamers and tubers. probably a larger fixed table with extra space off the table to allow more visibility on the board while streaming.

those are some of the considerations i can think of.



infinite_array wrote:Basically what Desubot said. When I was younger and living at my parents place, they let me keep four 4x2 MDF boards to put on the table tennis table. It was perfect to roll out my GW battlemat on.


While I'm not aiming to become YouTube famous, I do like the way their tables look from what I've seen.
   
Made in us
Twisting Tzeentch Horror





Kildare, Ireland

 K9ofChaos wrote:

=Angel= wrote:

Ideally:
Spoiler:
you'd have a richly varnished oaken table with inset brass laurels and wirework. This would have a burgundy felt lined recessed area of 8x4 or 6x4 and a lip surrounding this to balance reference materials, reserve models etc. Circular holes at the corners and a little trimming would loosely form the crux terminatus. The wood polish would be scented like Old Spice.

Terrain would have metal strips underneath which would clamp to the array of magnets underneath for easy storage.

John Blanche / Karl Kopiniski originals of 8x4 or 6x4 would hang on the walls surrounding the table. On the back of these artworks would be a modelled battlefield, each more impressive than the last. Polluted wasteland, Orbital Forge, Crystal cavern, frozen mountain, Crimson forest, Daemon world. You would carefully place one artwork into the table recess to play, the others would provide ambience.

Lighting in the room would be controlled through home assistant voice activation and would allow colder tones for an ice world, warmer tones for a desert etc.

A projector mounted above the table would project deployment zone lines and table borders onto the battlefield. If you wish to play killteam for example, it projects a 22x30 inch rectangle anywhere on the board of your choosing.


More practically, having a board that covers a smaller table works fine. The smaller the table beneath, the more rigid your 'board' needs to be. If you have a 2x3 table, you'll have a foot hanging over each side from a 6x8. With smaller overhang you can get away with polystyrene board unsupported, corriboard (corrugated plastic used in election posters), with more overhang you will need to support with wooden battens.

A fully modelled battlefield presents storage issues. If you divide it up (like the realm of battle) you'll get immersion destroying lines where they connect.
If using mats, dividing the supporting board won't produce this problem, but you are back to a 2d surface.

Ideal Practical solution - low space (apartment, room at your folks)
Spoiler:
3x 2x4 boards. Battlemat(s). The boards can also be textured or painted if desired.


Ideal Practical solution - med space: Playing in your kitchen, some space for storage
Spoiler:
6x4 rigid board. Battlemat(s). The board is painted as a space board on one side(xwing), crackle paint desert on the other. Alternately, do a painting/stick a canvas print on one side and hang it on the wall.


Ideal Practical solution - high space (dedicated games room):
Spoiler:
6x4 modelled board. Battlemat(s) for variety. The board is modelled as a frozen world, with purple crystal seams embedded in dark rocks. This will facilitate all your non space wargames and provide plenty of visual interest/plot device. It will accommodate a wide variety of terrain elements like forests and hills, buildings and (frozen) rivers, machinery, subterranean entrances.


Ideal Practical solution - super high space (mansion):
Spoiler:
I will live in your mansion and make terrain/play games with you on demand.


Jeez, that's a lot to take in, but thanks for being so thorough. I'm leaning somewhere between med space and high space regarding the ideal practical solution.



There's other considerations too I guess, depending on your financial situation versus your free time. If you don't have a wife or kids, your Saturdays are your own. You're time rich enough to throw time and effort into making something unique.

If your time is at a premium, a mat is ordered in a few clicks, arrives ready to go and gives you a lot of flexibility.
   
Made in us
Questioning Maelstrom Believer






Look up "2x4 Basics Workbench". They are molded high impact plastic legs that take most of the work out of creating simple, utilitarian tables. A set of legs costs ~$50 and then I was able to make a full sized 8x4 table for around $130 more in materials (wood and paint).

You can easily make a table of any dimension from 4x4 to 8x4 with two levels beneath for storage making only straight cuts and running a few screws. Did the full assembly in an afternoon by myself. The horizontal surfaces can be removed and replaced easily, and the whole thing can be broken down and reused for only the cost of wood.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/12 15:24:00


 
   
Made in gb
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets





Cardiff

I use folding sawhorses as trestles. They cost £20 on Amazon and can be used for DIY purposes as well. On top I have two 2x6 MDF sheets making up a 6x4 area. Simple, cheapest sturdy option I could find, and the whole lot stashes behind my door when my hobby room needs to be a spare bedroom.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/13 05:18:10


 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in au
Ork Boy Hangin' off a Trukk





I once got fairly crafty, made myself a fold up gaming table. Got a couple of sheets of corflute (the material you see with signposts alternating the lines for extra strength) glued a sheet of thick foamcore ontop then edged it with some 90" plastic edges for gutters Ended up being a lot lighter than what MDF would be if you need one that can be stored away. Even managed to make it hinged by finding some hinges that opened and shut in the same manner of scissors so it folded into a 2x4 package and kept the surface pretty safe. Add in some rocks, carve gentle slopes and hills into the foamcore and it's a pretty good portable gaming surface. I really should revisit it with better tools and more experience some time, make a 6x4 this time.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






For the table in my games room, I used 18mm-thick plywood. It leeded sanding and filling, but it was much lighter than an equivalent thickness of MDF.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




I second what beast_gts said.

I bought 6 Linmon/Adils tables from IKEA. They currently cost £16 each.

The legs are adjustable so they keep the table level on my uneven attic floor. The tables are small, so they fit through the roofspace hatch. 4 of them are sturdy enough to support the 6x2 plywood scenery boards I have already, or to be a decent size table themselves. The other 2 are side tables to store armies, books, mugs, etc...
   
Made in us
Scouting Shade





There are several companies that have folding gaming tables that are just over 6’ long to accommodate mats. They are a bit pricey but may be worth looking into if you want something none intrusive and portable.
   
Made in us
Horrific Hive Tyrant






I recently received my Game Changer table.

Looks great, plays great. Has a bit of extra room because of the rails. Table covers make it good for doing other stuff too.

https://ultimategametable.com/collections/gamechanger


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

The Nazis were right. It's better to be a Nazi than a fan.

Thank you for getting me on the side of Milo and the Nazis.

 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut



SoCal

 Lance845 wrote:
I recently received my Game Changer table.

Looks great, plays great. Has a bit of extra room because of the rails. Table covers make it good for doing other stuff too.

https://ultimategametable.com/collections/gamechanger


So just to double check are the rails stained wood, or laminate ?
   
Made in ca
Trustworthy Shas'vre






 K9ofChaos wrote:

Yeah, I'm not handy enough to build my own wargaming table, so I'll most likely buy a pre-made 4x8 table instead.


If you can build and paint your own minis, you're handy enough.

Ikea sells screw on (screws into a base plate, which is screwed onto the table), height adjustable legs. Buy 6-8 of these legs. Buy a 4x8 sheet of paint grade plywood 3/4" thick and some iron-on wood strip banding. If you don't have a clothes iron, you can just glue on the banding with Gorilla Glue, just buy banding with no glue on it.

Iron/glue on the banding (this keeps the table edge from generating splinters), trim to size with a sharp knife, give it a light sanding to remove sharp edges. Varnishing the table is optional but recommended. Screw on the base plates with 1/2" screws, pop on the legs, adjust for desired height..

At a minimum, this whole project can be done with a screwdriver and a knife and maybe a piece of sandpaper and maybe an hour's labor if you don't varnish anything. For deluxe results, install plywood reinforcements (glued in place, for longer screws on the base plates) and a couple coats of varnish.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/52990657@N04/8382457246/in/dateposted-public/


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/16 19:21:56


   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





 Tvayumat wrote:
Look up "2x4 Basics Workbench". They are molded high impact plastic legs that take most of the work out of creating simple, utilitarian tables. A set of legs costs ~$50 and then I was able to make a full sized 8x4 table for around $130 more in materials (wood and paint).

You can easily make a table of any dimension from 4x4 to 8x4 with two levels beneath for storage making only straight cuts and running a few screws. Did the full assembly in an afternoon by myself. The horizontal surfaces can be removed and replaced easily, and the whole thing can be broken down and reused for only the cost of wood.



Ooh, that's a nice table you built there! Tell me, what dimension is this one in? 4x4 or 8x4? Because that looks like it's got enough space for a terrain map, rule books and then some.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Ideally you want a light weight but sturdy base frame.

For the "gaming surface" I took a clue from the Mexicans. They had a tourney south of the border and found that they were brilliant at making light weight disposable and cheap tops for the tourney.

What you do is get furring strips (they are 1"x1" and light weight). You then make a box frame out of them. Pretty simple to do even w/o nails you can use long staples. You then get some nice sturdy double layer cardboard and staple that to the frame. It's actually quite stiff. Stiff enough.. and you place that on your table support. If it gets damaged repairs are both cheap and easy. Plus it weighs next to nothing and can be thus put on and taken off quickly. You just slap a gaming mat down on top of it. I wouldn't recommend LEANING your full weight on it.. it's not meant to support a human. But otherwise it's fine. If you need something a bit more sturdy you can use the corrugated plastic signage material.

Consummate 8th Edition Hater.  
   
 
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