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Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Hey there, I mainly play AoS but have been looking at KoW to play something different every now and then. I'm a big fan of shooty armies but I also enjoy playing competitively and I'm sure pure shooting won't fly in this game. At first I was really only looking at Abyssal Dwarves and regular Dwarves.. but Nightstalkers have really caught my eye and since I want to largely stay in the realm of the cheaper mantic mini's, this seemed great... but they seem to be lacking in shooting units.

Is there anyway to build this army in a competitive manner with decent shooting? I think AoS has me too set on shooting and in this game it seems to be more... supportive rather than being a main damage dealer, but perhaps I'm wrong.

Any pointers would be great, bonus for including any starting lists I could buy to get playing at the 1k range that would towards building into 2k.
   
Made in us
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot





I own and play both KoWAbyssal Dwarves and regular Dwarves. Dwarves can be long ranged shooty, but Abyssal Dwarves are a mix. In practice, I find Abyssal Dwarves are more about melee with some fire support while Dwarves can do the classic gunline. Going pure gunline can be foolish, as only in a pure Kill scenario is it viable; a Loot! or Objective scenario means you'd lose out on the VP from the objectives.

Still, you want 1k shooty lists ...

1k Dwarf
Ironclad Troop w/Dwarven Throwing Mastiff 85pts
Ironclad regt. 110
Ironwatch Crossbow regt. 135
Ironwatch Rifles Horde w/ Jar of Four Winds 290
Ironblecher Cannon 110
Ironblecher Organ Gun 85
Army Standard Bearer w/ Healing Charm 80
Warsmith w/ Inspiring Talisman 115

The Jar of 4 Winds gives the unit +12" to their range, so the rifles now have range 36", as does the cannon. The crossbows and organ gun have range 24" The Warsmith stays within 6" of the artillery, as they each benefit from his presence. Blast increases on the Cannon, and the Organ Gun gets Elite (reroll 1s to hit). The latter ability is the better of the two. The melee units sit on the flanks to defend the gunline. All your shooters have Reload, which means they cannot move and fire. Initial deployment is key. Depending on how fast the opponent's army is you'll need to adjust your deployment. Assuming the usual 10" March, you want to set up 33" away from his line. You get to fire twice before he is in charge range, and you'll need to break the main units before then. Again this only works in kill scenarios.

Basic Dwarf Army Starter: $90, 655pts

1k Abyssal Dwarves Army
Blacksouls Horde 190pts
Immortal Guard Troop 100
Decimators Regiment 160
Decimators Regiment 160
Katsuchan Rocket Launcher 85
Angkor Heavy Mortar 120
Slavedriver w/ Scrying Gem 80
Iron-caster 105

This is not a list I've used, as my original 1k list had Abyssal Halfbreeds for a cavalry component, and it had two rocket launchers, which is no longer legal under Clash of Kings 2019. Also, there were no Decimators. However, this list has lots of shooting, although the Decimators are only range 12", but they can fire and move. The scrying gem = "When starting to deploy their units, your opponent must deploy D3+1 units instead of a single one." Ideally, your opponent will have to commit an important unit before you start deploying the Decimators, this way you know where to place the killing zone. The Blacksouls are the anvil, and the Immortal Guard are the flank guard. The artillery (as they have Indirect Fire) can be placed behind the Blacksouls for safety, although this limits them to firing on Height 2 and larger (cavalry, ogres/trolls, monsters). The Iron-caster can heal the artillery or Immortal Guard, Inspire the artillery, and has 6d6 Fireball. Not strictly necessary in this list, and a 2nd Immortal Guard troop is probably better.


While I've played against Nightstalkers, I've not played as them, so that I'll leave to someone else.

Gwendar wrote:
Hey there, I mainly play AoS but have been looking at KoW to play something different every now and then. I'm a big fan of shooty armies but I also enjoy playing competitively and I'm sure pure shooting won't fly in this game. At first I was really only looking at Abyssal Dwarves and regular Dwarves.. but Nightstalkers have really caught my eye and since I want to largely stay in the realm of the cheaper mantic mini's, this seemed great... but they seem to be lacking in shooting units.

Is there anyway to build this army in a competitive manner with decent shooting? I think AoS has me too set on shooting and in this game it seems to be more... supportive rather than being a main damage dealer, but perhaps I'm wrong.

Any pointers would be great, bonus for including any starting lists I could buy to get playing at the 1k range that would towards building into 2k.

Kings of War: Abyssal Dwarves, Dwarves, Elves, Undead
Kings of War Historical: Macedonian
Dropzone Commander: PHR
Blood Angels Necron [WiP]

 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Well, it doesn't have to be purely shooting by any means.. in the end I want to be competitive with this and I know that entails an all-comers style approach. For Dwarves and Abyssal Dwarves I was assuming that meant 2-3 Artillery pieces and 1-3 Horde\Regiment shooting units. The Herneas ranger formation seemed interesting for a shooting base as well.. as well as the (while not strictly shooting) Steel behemoth formation.

There seem to be more Dwarven minis available from Mantic than Nightstalkers, so I would likely go with either.

Building to 2k, what could I be looking towards getting for Dwarves\Abyssal Dwarves?
   
Made in nl
Crazed Flagellant




Netherlands

 Ancestral Hamster wrote:
I (....)
Still, you want 1k shooty lists ...

1k Dwarf
[boom, boom, a lot of boom]

(....)



Hamster is right, this is a very shooting list. As he already mentioned, this is not a good list for many scenarios.
I do play against a lot of dwarves, and I'd hate to face the following list @ 1,000 points:

-Horde ironclad, mastiff (190)
-Regiment Rangers (180)
-Flame belcher (85)
-Organ gun (85)
-Regiment brock riders, haste (225) -> the haste is just to spend the remaining 15 points. Other options are viable too.
-Army standard, diadem of dragonkind (80)
-Berserker lord on brock, blade of slashing (155)

It's a fairly shooting list, that can deal with a lot of stuff you'll see in 1,000 points. The flame belcher/organ gun are both efficent war machines (the cannon sucks). The rangers with vanguard/4+ ra make for a strong shooting unit too. Finally, there's some support through the fire breathing army standard. The ironclad make for a very good anvil (def 5+, nerve 21/13) so you can take some punishment there. The combination of brocks and the berskerker lord (I think the best individual in KoW) can deliver a whole lot of pain, especially to units which have been damaged already by all the shooting.

All in, it's a list I'd like to play.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/06 10:22:16


My blog on Kings of War:

http://kingsofwarvince.business.blog 
   
Made in at
Privateer




Austria

Gwendar wrote:
Well, it doesn't have to be purely shooting by any means.. in the end I want to be competitive with this and I know that entails an all-comers style approach.


Be aware that list building is not that important to be competitive
You are more likley to be successful with a playstyle you like and spend time with it, than with a perfect list (if you are more of an passive player a list that need to be aggressive won't work)

This said, starting with the Army Set will give a good base to start and goind to 2k really depends on personal preferences if you want to be more tanky, more agressive or just want to add models you like

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




I think this is just another case of AoS clouding my judgement as I can only view things from the perspective of how that game works and list building is a very important aspect. I would say I tend to be more of a defensive player than a passive one, which is why I wanted a solid amount of shooting, but still have 1-2 units for a flanking punch (which seems to be what the mounted berserkers do best) and plenty of anvils to keep everything held back while the shooting whittles away.

I really like Vince's idea so I may consider something like that for 1k. Is the Ranger formation worth it? I was looking to run at least 2 Organ Guns (maybe a flame belcher as well) and a Warsmith to support them.. and then either the ranger formation and\or 2 regiments or hordes of Rifles. Everything else will be an anvil or 1-2 units of Brock Riders
   
Made in nl
Crazed Flagellant




Netherlands

Gwendar wrote:

(.....)
I really like Vince's idea so I may consider something like that for 1k. Is the Ranger formation worth it? I was looking to run at least 2 Organ Guns (maybe a flame belcher as well) and a Warsmith to support them.. and then either the ranger formation and\or 2 regiments or hordes of Rifles. Everything else will be an anvil or 1-2 units of Brock Riders


Thanks!

Anyhow, Kings of War has an annual update. It's by no means necesary to use it, but most players do so. (if only because there's a lot of goodies in there for the different armies.) In the current update (Clash'19) there's a limit of one copy for each character, war machine and monster in armies up to 1,500 points. That;s why I used one organ fun only, as I prefer the organ gun over the flame belcher. The belcher isn't bad, but I think the Organ gun is better suited in this army.

Rifles are a unit that I don't like. It's only 20 shots hitting at 5+, so on average 6/7 hits. And then only if you're hitting something right in the open, which is hard enough as it is. I'd only use them with the jar of the four winds, but then you're looking at a whopping 280 points..... Like the Kingdoms of Men shooters, I don't think dwarven shooters (outside of rangers and most war machines) are worth it. For more information about the math behind it; read here https://kingsofwarvince.business.blog/2018/12/07/why-elven-shooters-are-great-and-men-arent/ => Warning: rant.

Dwarfs have some wonderful anvils. The ironclad horde is great, but also regiments of bullwarkers (now they're upgraded with big shields) are a good deal. (def 6+; phalanx for 150 points. This requires a serious can-opener to push through. Another option to consider is the earth elemental / stone priest combination. If you like the surge mechanic that undead enjoy, this combination can give you some movement shenigans. Other than that, the greater earth elemental has quite some power in itself and what's not to love about def 6+?

Anyhow, enjoy!

My blog on Kings of War:

http://kingsofwarvince.business.blog 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Enigmatic Exalted Daemon





Albany, NY

Gwendar wrote:
I would say I tend to be more of a defensive player than a passive one, which is why I wanted a solid amount of shooting, but still have 1-2 units for a flanking punch (which seems to be what the mounted berserkers do best) and plenty of anvils to keep everything held back while the shooting whittles away.
A very popular Dwarf army archetype is called 'Brocks 'n' Rocks' (or vice versa) and relies on earth elemental hordes + brock regiments backed up by stone priest(s) + berzerker brock lord(s) + shooting and most likely the ranger formation. It tends to have very few foot dwarfs in it, which rubs some people the wrong way but whatever. I'd say this is a pretty generic 2k list:

Rangers Regiment*
Rangers Regiment*
Earth Elementals Horde
Earth Elementals Horde
Berserker Brock Riders Regiment - Potion of the Caterpillar
Berserker Brock Riders Regiment
Ironbelcher Organ Gun
Ironbelcher Organ Gun
Berserker Lord on Brock - Blade of the Beast Slayer
Stone Priest - Surge (8), Bane Chant (2), Mind Fog (1)
Herneas Hunter*
Greater Earth Elemental
*Herneas's Hunting Party
2000

Duplicates of everything and a hero for each component of the army. The greater earth elemental is the odder unit, but it fits the theme and can work as a third anvil as well as a beatstick if he can surge into a flank, both of which are good for the army. You could take a couple breath weapons or some mastiff packs or something instead of him, but I think the big dude adds presence and potential to the force.

As for a 1k version, the posted list looks fine. Most everything is built for 2k+ these days (as you probably know from AOS), although 1k KOW is totally rewarding as well.

EDIT: Do you know about EasyArmy? Everybody uses it to make KOW lists, so much so that tournaments require lists to be submitted in EA format:
https://kow2.easyarmy.com/clash-of-kings-2019.aspx

^ That link is to the most recent comp pack version, which frankly everybody should be using.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/06/06 14:58:26


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Made in at
Brooding Night Goblin





I have no experience with them, but wouldn't an Empire of Dust army also be a viable option for a shooty army?

They have so many ranged options?

Infantry, Large Infantry, Cavalary, War Engines... even monsters (reanimated behemoth) can be ranged.
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Enigmatic Exalted Daemon





Albany, NY

I mean, the best shooting armies are Elves or Twilight Kin, between great army special rules, some fearsome (buffed) chariots, and truly nasty assault troops, particularly in the case of Elves (i.e. Drakon Riders). Kin have the better chaff (Gargoyles) but not quite as strong combat. Neither are defensive armies, both really dictate the game due to shooting powers and charge range. They also illustrate that "best shooting" really does not mean "only shooting", you want fast reactive troops too. Often these types of armies don't really have anvils either.

But both are pretty hated armies to face, especially Elves. KOW is a very balanced game ... but Elves often do feel to be a half tier above. Couple tournaments back I faced a 40k player playing a high level Elf list that was built for him by a pro, and even though it was his second game of KOW ever he tabled me, which is a rare occurrence for me - and never before by the end of Turn 4! He apologized the whole time too, and through the rest of the tournament that he skated through until he was dethroned in the last match.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/06 17:29:10


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Made in us
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot





Gwendar wrote:
<Snip> Building to 2k, what could I be looking towards getting for Dwarves\Abyssal Dwarves?


A CoK 19 legal revision of a 2000k AD list I have used.

Blacksouls Horde w/ Brew of Courage 205pts
Immortal Guard Troop 105
Decimators Troop 120
Gargoyles Troop 80
Gargoyles Troop 80
Lesser Obsidian Golems Horde - Blade of Slashing 205
Abyssal Halfbreeds Regt. - Staying Stone 200
Abyssal Grotesques Horde - Chalice of Wrath (or Haste) 265
Katsuchan Rocket Launcher 85
Katsuchan Rocket Launcher 85
Slavedriver - Lute of Insatiable Darkness 75
Abyssal Halfbreed Champion - Banner of the Griffin 185
Iron-caster - Surge (8) & Inspiring Talisman 140
Greater Obsidian Golem 160

This is a more classic "hammer & anvil" army. Blacksouls are the anvil with the Slavedriver and artillery behind. Flank Guards are the Decimator & Immortal Guard troops; the Decimators are only Def 4, so they should be kept behind the Blacksouls until the enemy starts threatening the flank, then they move out and interpose. The Halfbreeds and Grotesques are cavalry and in the company of the Abyssal Halfbreed Champion will try for the enemy flank (the Banner of the Griffin boost Nerve Values by +1). The Gargoyle troops are a Forlorn Hope that deploy in front of the cavalry. They serve as chaff to soak fire, and if they survive, they can charge enemy artillery or support characters like casters (they aren't tough enough to take on anything stronger). On rare occasions, they survive long enough to Fly over an enemy line and on the next turn Charge an enemy engaged with the cavalry in the rear. Keep the Gargolyes within 6" of the Champion in the hopes they'll pass their Nerve test going in. The Golems are a "hammer & anvil" all to themselves and act as a junction between the slow Blacksouls and the faster cavalry. The Iron-caster is critical here and must stay within 12" (Surge range), and ideally 6" (Inspiring range). The LOG Horde is the anvil to the GOG's hammer. When the LOG is engage, move the GOG up the enemy's flank, then turn. During the Shooting Phase, cast Surge on the GOG and it will flank charge the enemy, Golems are pretty bricky with DEF 6+ and with their Crushing Strength can usually deal with enemy hammer units. The Iron-caster can also Heal them, but it's only 3d6, so don't rely on it.

This list I have used and will use again. At one time it had a Ogre Shooter Horde for long range fire support 36", but used Slave Orc Gore Riders instead of the Grotesques. The Slave Orcs were unreliable, so they've been replaced, but that costs me the Ogres.

The Broken Slaves formation is a bargain bin anvil, but they can work. They only need live long enough for the rest of the army to break the enemy.

At some point I'll run 2 LOG Hordes + GOG; I have a 3rd LOG Horde, but it isn't legal under CoK 19.

Abyssal Dwarf Mega Army $149 US (Although the earlier one I bought was better as it had more Obsidian Golems).

As for 2K Dwarves ... others have answered, but I'd add Rangers, Bulwarkers, and the Brock Riders. A King with Wings of Honeymaze {Spd 10", FLY} is a good troubleshooter. An Ogre Shooter Horde is also useful. (As they are Neutral, you can use them in any KoW army, so more mileage!)

Kings of War: Abyssal Dwarves, Dwarves, Elves, Undead
Kings of War Historical: Macedonian
Dropzone Commander: PHR
Blood Angels Necron [WiP]

 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Man, all great suggestions.. I really do appreciate the feedback. I'm really liking the look of that Elemental army; Shooting, Hammers + Anvil and there's a lot of duplicates so, less to think about. I may go that direction to be honest.. I think that's exactly what I was looking for. At the very least that gives me building blocks to form some ideas around and I can buy into other things if it doesn't fit the bill.

I think I'll get started on some theory-crafting and using easyarmy (thanks for the link) to get something roughed out. Really looking forward to trying out the game. Thanks again for all the help!
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Enigmatic Exalted Daemon





Albany, NY

Another bonus of the Rocks 'n' Brocks list is that I think all or just about all of it is available from Mantic

Happy to help! There's plenty of places to go from this list, including down to infantry and up to the Iron Behemoth (which is pretty legit after the COK19 updates). Flying King is as noted another very popular support piece - and we haven't really talked about allies (Elohi - basically angels and very often repped by Stormcast - are extremely popular for Dwarf armies)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/06/06 19:42:13


BLOODFIRE: KOW SALAMANDER REPORTS 
   
Made in nl
Crazed Flagellant




Netherlands

 Boss Salvage wrote:
Another bonus of the Rocks 'n' Brocks list is that I think all or just about all of it is available from Mantic

(....)


Wasn't the original "Rocks, Brocks 'n' Glocks"? the Glocks being several organ guns and flame throwers?

On that matter, what's your general feeling on battle drillers?
I think they are a bargain monster that (due to 360 degree LOS) can guard flanks/rears from pesky individuals and fliers. They were used quite a few times against me and were quite a nuisance for those 70 points.

My blog on Kings of War:

http://kingsofwarvince.business.blog 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Enigmatic Exalted Daemon





Albany, NY

 vince1248 wrote:
Wasn't the original "Rocks, Brocks 'n' Glocks"? the Glocks being several organ guns and flame throwers?
Oh right! Yea, so that's basically this list too

I've rarely experienced a battle driller, and when I did face a couple in a clubmate's list I don't recall them doing much. Can you overrun them like an individual? I feel like I remember overrunning off them into flanks and things. Looking at the unit again, I also wonder if they compete too much with belchers or mastiff packs for those last handfuls of points in a Dwarf list, when those units do more concrete things.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/06/10 13:35:35


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Made in us
Stubborn Eternal Guard





Alaska

Welcome to KoW and the forum! Lots of good guidance above on Dwarves and AD. Goblins are another shooty army. The only time my Trident Realm played against them we took massive damage from warmachines and wizards trying to cross no man's fishes) land. The Goblins ate lots of battlefield sushi lol!
Abyss is another army with lots of shooters that can cover theswift movement of lots of scary flyers. Many of the KoW armies have multiple playstyles so it can pay off to experiment and use proxies.

May the dice be with you!  
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




 Boss Salvage wrote:
Another bonus of the Rocks 'n' Brocks list is that I think all or just about all of it is available from Mantic


Yeah, this is kind of a requirement anyway as they're cheap and I have all my money invested in AoS stuff. Not looking to spend the same amount on KoW as I will likely play it less overall.

I have an intro game this Sunday against a co-worker (who is also interested, but unsure of what army he wants to run) using Dwarves so.. we'll see how it goes. Thanks again for the suggestions, can't wait to get started.
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Enigmatic Exalted Daemon





Albany, NY

Enjoy, and good luck!

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