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Had a strange one tonight.
Wolves Vs Orks.
Wolves went first, nothing much happened.

In the Ork first turn they blew up a stormwolf which crashed and burned and did 6 mortal wounds to a nearby grot unit which of course broke.

Do the wolves get first blood for it?

The rules are actually pretty clear. Whomever kills the first unit gets the point. In this case, the Orks get it and the Wolves don't, because the Grots broke (and presumably all the models in the unit ran) during the Morale phase. If, however, two units died simultaneously (such as the Stormwolf blowing up, but it's death also kills an Ork character that was nearby), then you could argue the "two units died simultaneously" to both gain a point.

Was there not a match play (beta?) rule though where both sides could get first blood first turn?

I just double-checked the Warhammer 40,000 Update FAQ, the Chapter Approved 2018 FAQ, and the Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook FAQ, and didn't see anything in there. However, I think the Chapter Approved missions use First Strike, which checks if you destroyed an enemy unit during the first battle round. If you are using THIS rule (not First Blood), then yes, the situation presented will result in both players gaining 1 victory point.

No, who ever kills the first unit scores first blood.

And second the wolf player did not score first blood even if that was a rule. A unit that is destroyed by moral is not killed by the oponant. If I shot grots and one survived and ran away that's not a unit killed.

 Ratius wrote:
Was there not a match play (beta?) rule though where both sides could get first blood first turn?

First Blood is a mission rule, not a general game rule. The newest Chapter Approved missions have an updated version but the older missions still use the old rule.

Ah yes, apologies, I was thinking about first strike missions.
Thanks! (it was a first strike mission )

To answer the original question in the subject bar - "Can you get first blood in an opponents turn?":

Yes - when the first unit is destroyed, the opposing player scores first blood. How the unit is destroyed is irrelevant (including by morale). There are number of ways this could occur in your opponents turn:

Death by Perils of the Warp
Melee in your opponents turn
Overcharging plasma where the firing unit is wiped out and the target unit is not.
If there are Reserves that have not deployed in turn 3 and no other units have been destroyed yet.
Out of sequence events such as those caused by, for example, Standard of the Emperor Ascendant.

In the OP's example: Depends on how you interpret "simultaneous", but that's a whole can of worms. I'd suggest you agree with your opponent how to resolve "simultaneous" in this context before starting the game, or the TO as appropriate.

edit: re-reading the OP, first blood would not be scored by the Space Wolf player as the grot unit is destroyed in the morale phase, not simultaneously with the stormwolf.

Aash wrote:
To answer the original question in the subject bar - "Can you get first blood in an opponents turn?":

Yes - when the first unit is destroyed, the opposing player scores first blood. How the unit is destroyed is irrelevant (including by morale). There are number of ways this could occur in your opponents turn:

Death by Perils of the Warp
Melee in your opponents turn
Overcharging plasma where the firing unit is wiped out and the target unit is not.
If there are Reserves that have not deployed in turn 3 and no other units have been destroyed yet.
Out of sequence events such as those caused by, for example, Standard of the Emperor Ascendant.

In the OP's example: Depends on how you interpret "simultaneous", but that's a whole can of worms. I'd suggest you agree with your opponent how to resolve "simultaneous" in this context before starting the game, or the TO as appropriate.

edit: re-reading the OP, first blood would not be scored by the Space Wolf player as the grot unit is destroyed in the morale phase, not simultaneously with the stormwolf.

This is not true, first blood is ONLY scored if you killed your oponants unit. How they were destoryed does matter.

You do not score first blood if:
Your opponant dies to perals
Your opponant looses a unit to moral
Your opponant looses a unit from over charge
They die in reserves.

You your self need to be the cause of a units destruction by wounding them off of the field. As first blood is when you slay an enemy not when your opponant fails and wiffs.

You CAN score in your opponants turn if:
You kill a unit in melee combat in your oponants turn.
Over watch them to death

Places where first blood can be argued/ I'm not really sure would be if you had a shoot/ fight before you are removed off the table and you end up killing something before you take the model off. That might be a case of both score it idk there.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Aash wrote:
To answer the original question in the subject bar - "Can you get first blood in an opponents turn?":

Yes - when the first unit is destroyed, the opposing player scores first blood. How the unit is destroyed is irrelevant (including by morale). There are number of ways this could occur in your opponents turn:

Death by Perils of the Warp
Melee in your opponents turn
Overcharging plasma where the firing unit is wiped out and the target unit is not.
If there are Reserves that have not deployed in turn 3 and no other units have been destroyed yet.
Out of sequence events such as those caused by, for example, Standard of the Emperor Ascendant.

In the OP's example: Depends on how you interpret "simultaneous", but that's a whole can of worms. I'd suggest you agree with your opponent how to resolve "simultaneous" in this context before starting the game, or the TO as appropriate.

edit: re-reading the OP, first blood would not be scored by the Space Wolf player as the grot unit is destroyed in the morale phase, not simultaneously with the stormwolf.

This is not true, first blood is ONLY scored if you killed your oponants unit. How they were destoryed does matter.



You do not score first blood if:
Your opponant dies to perals
Your opponant looses a unit to moral
Your opponant looses a unit from over charge
They die in reserves.

You your self need to be the cause of a units destruction by wounding them off of the field. As first blood is when you slay an enemy not when your opponant fails and wiffs.

You CAN score in your opponants turn if:
You kill a unit in melee combat in your oponants turn.
Over watch them to death

Places where first blood can be argued/ I'm not really sure would be if you had a shoot/ fight before you are removed off the table and you end up killing something before you take the model off. That might be a case of both score it idk there.

Unless I've missed an FAQ or Errata, I'm pretty sure I'm right on this one.

From the BRB miissions:

First Blood: The first unit, of any kind, to be destroyed during the battle is worth 1 victory point to the opposing player at the end of the game. If two or more units from opposing forces are destroyed simultaneously, then both players get 1 victory point.

From the Warhammer 40,000 Designer's Commentary:

Q: When is a unit considered to be ‘completely destroyed’ or ‘wiped out’?
A: These two terms are used synonymously. A unit is considered to be completely destroyed when the last model in that unit is destroyed (also referred to as slain) or flees.

How do you get to that answer?

The mission rule "first blood" just requires that the first unit of any kind to be destroyed... then awards one point to the opponent.

Please state where you get that it has to be an opponents action that kills the unit, because so far you are utterly incorrect.

models that are lost in the morale phase are not considered slain or destroyed they are removed from play that's where the key difference is.

It's the same situation you get with girly-man if you kill him once but he comes back you don't get first blood or slay the warlord until he is actually dead even though he leaves the battlefield because he's removed from the battlefield on his first "death"

 Backspacehacker wrote:
models that are lost in the morale phase are not considered slain or destroyed they are removed from play that's where the key difference is.

It's the same situation you get with girly-man if you kill him once but he comes back you don't get first blood or slay the warlord until he is actually dead even though he leaves the battlefield because he's removed from the battlefield on his first "death"

A unit which flees is considered destroyed. This is addressed in the Designer's Commentary as I quoted in my previous post:

From the Warhammer 40,000 Designer's Commentary:
Q: When is a unit considered to be ‘completely destroyed’ or ‘wiped out’?
A: These two terms are used synonymously. A unit is considered to be completely destroyed when the last model in that unit is destroyed (also referred to as slain) or flees.

Individual models which flee are not slain and so do not benefit from FNP, RP etc, but when a whole unit flees, the unit is considered destroyed.

Huh well I'll be damned, that said, tournaments I have been to don't seem to follow that but that's an interesting but of information

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Huh well I'll be damned, that said, tournaments I have been to don't seem to follow that but that's an interesting but of information

First Blood isa mission rule, so in tournaments with their own missions it might be different and different rules apply in the CA missions. This specific wording for First Blood is only for the missions in the BRB IIRC. The General rule that a unit wiped out is classified as destroyed should still apply unless it is house ruled. In my experience, VP rules for tournament missions will specify that you must destroy an opponent's unit to score rather than saying that the unit must be destroyed.

Well I'll be damned thats interesting.

Now I'll admit personally I think first blood should go off of who actually kills a unit first but if that's raw data the rules I guess.