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Hi to anyone reading this,

I've not played since 6th ed and am looking at putting together a small elite army to have a go with 8th edition. Specifically I want to make dreadnought list comprising of only original dreads, so I'm avoiding contemptors, leviathans, etc. With these quite severe limitations I was hoping people could give some c&c for the list, with the aim of it to play a fast casual game.

Dreadforce 2000 pts

Supreme Command Detachment, Blood Angles
HQ
Librarian Dread - Warlord, gift of forsight, veritas vitae, HF
2x Librarian Dread - HF
462 pts

Vanguard Detachment, Ravenguard
HQ
Chaplain Dread - twin las, HF

Elites
3x ironclad - Hurricane, HF, CF, assault launchers
615 pts

Vanguard Detachment, Ravenguard
HQ
Chaplain Dread - twin las, HF

Elites
3x Venerable Dread - twin las, twin autocannon
2x Venerable Dread - twin autocannon, twin HB
923 pts

Total 2000 points.

So did I do the formations right? Is this legal in 8th edition?
And would this work for casual games?

Thanks

The detachments are right but there's a 'rule of 3' so you can only have 3 of each unit (except troops or transports). So would have to swap 2 venerable dreadnoughts out, if you're wanting to keep the same aesthetic you could swap them for mortis dreadnoughts. The points will be similar.

Will be fun to play, may not be the most competitive for scoring objectives etc but if your opponent doesn't have a lot of anti tank you'll roll them over!

Ok thanks, I hadn't heard of the rule of 3 before.

The easiest fix is to demote 2 ven dreads to normal dreads, then the spare points could just be used for ironclad HKs.

That said I could potentially get another dread if I take off a lot of the extras.

How do people feel about the heavy flamers? Would they be worth the cost most of the time?

Well being swamped by close combat will probably be the biggest issue for this list, the only problem with heavy flamers is they're on 8" range. So anything charging from deepstrike can get round it and lots of stuff has 3d6 charge or +3 to charge roll.

Imo you'd be better with more longrange firepower to whittle down that mele threat before it gets to you. They are good for hitting things with -to hit modifiers but you have to get really close anyway.

Yeah after reading about flamers not ignoring cover and losing their wall of flame ability they are not as appealing to me, especially with the beta bolter rules making storm bolters a bit better.

I've adjusted my plan to this:

Dreadforce 2000 pts

Supreme Command Detachment, Blood Angles
HQ
Librarian Dread - Warlord, gift of forsight, veritas vitae, SB
2x Librarian Dread - SB
426 pts

Vanguard Detachment, Ravenguard
HQ
Chaplain Dread - twin las, SB

Elites
3x ironclad - Hurricane, HF, CF,
588 pts

Vanguard Detachment, Ravenguard
HQ
Chaplain Dread - twin las, SB

Elites
3x Venerable Dread - twin las, twin autocannon
3x Dread - twin autocannon, twin HB
981 pts

How is the autocannon vs HB debate in the meta?
Autocannons are more well rounded vs all targets, but HB are better vs t3/4 1 wound targets.
I lean more towards autocannons because of the rifleman dreads of the past, but quad mortis bolter dreads seem viable in 8th.

Now that autocannons are 10pts it's hard to justify the HB tbh. Only against lots of t4 1w bodies like orks does it have an advantage. T3 are wounded easier by autocannons and the extra range balances out the 2 vs 3 shots.

There is no rule of 3. Its a suggestion for organised play. If you play a casual game, and you dont agree to use this, its not in play. If you play in a tournament check their rules, if they use this suggestion.

GW only has clarified what counts as the same datasheet for daemon princes, heavy weapon teams, and cult leman russes in the BRB update 1.5. Its still unclear if a SALAMANDER ven dread is the same datasheet as an ULTRAMARINE ven dread. The keywords are different, so they cant be the same datasheet.

 small_gods wrote:
Now that autocannons are 10pts it's hard to justify the HB tbh. Only against lots of t4 1w bodies like orks does it have an advantage. T3 are wounded easier by autocannons and the extra range balances out the 2 vs 3 shots.

Autocannons for dreads arent 10 points.

Ok thanks for clarifying.
Still, Its only a slight change to the list, so if it makes more potential players happy then I'm fine with the rule of 3.

You're right, autocannons aren't only 10 points for dreads. Due to the pricing differences of regular and mortis dreads however there is only a 1 point difference between a regular dread with twin auto + twin HB, and a mortis with quad HB.

So with points being irrelevant here, twin auto + twin HB, or quad HB?

Autos are more versatile, HB's might fill in for the list's weakness a bit more, or are both of the weapons so similar that it won't matter in most games?

Thanks

Rule of 3 is pretty ubiquitous in uk tournements and casual games we play around me. And it's always been interpreted that a different legion trait doesn't make a different datasheet, otherwise it would be the rule of as many as you want as you could have 8 different legions in one space marine detachment. That being said you can play any rules you like casually so it depends where/how you want to play.

Didn't spot points difference for dreads, HB could be worth considering for the extra 16 points but I'd still go Autocannon. Your best sitting back and out ranging your opponent with this sort of list.

I like to use double twin AC on a regular dread for 126 pts. Which is only 16 pts above a mortis dread with double twin HB. Weirdly, two twin AC on a mortis dread is 135 pts. I feel like S7 D2 AC is better than S5 D1 HB, and well worth the additional points. Why no leviathan dread with double storm cannon arrays ? Its the ultimate dread, with insane damage output.

No leviathan because I wanted to keep the list to what I consider traditional dreads. Also it is very strong and would probably tip the balance and make the list too oppressive in more casual games.

Unlike most armies, this one has no infantry and no small arms fire, so dealing with hordes massed infantry is a concern. In this respect the HB is better than the ac. I think i'll go for HB +AC. That will give the list 12 autocannons, 6 HBs and 10 lascannons, which is a good spread imo.

With split fire as it is now mixing weapons on dreads is much less of a problem.

When you play against 150 models a handful more HB shots doesnt matter.

An update to my list, I'm in the process of making this now.

I decided to get a leviathan in the end, and got rid of the ironclads. Here's what I'm working on now:

++ Ravenguard Vanguard Detachment [42 PL, 756pts] ++

+ HQ +

Chaplain Venerable Dreadnought [11 PL, 192pts]: Twin lascannon, Storm bolter

+ Elites +

Dreadnought [7 PL, 126pts]: Twin autocannon, Twin autocannon

3x Venerable Dreadnought [8 PL, 146pts]: Twin autocannon, Twin autocannon

++ Blood Angels Supreme Command Detachment [27 PL, 462pts] ++

+ HQ +

Librarian Dreadnought [9 PL, 154pts]: meltagun, The Veritas Vitae

2x Librarian Dreadnought [9 PL, 154pts]: meltagun

++ Ravenguard Spearhead Detachment [43 PL, 777pts] ++

+ HQ +

Chaplain Venerable Dreadnought [11 PL, 192pts]: Storm of Fire, Twin lascannon, SB
. Warlord: Codex: Space Marines

+ Heavy Support +

2x Mortis Dreadnought [8 PL, 135pts]
. Two twin autocannons: 2x Twin autocannon

Relic Leviathan Dreadnought [16 PL, 315pts]: 2x Heavy flamer, 2x Hunter-killer missile, 2x Storm cannon

++ Total: [112 PL, 1,995pts] ++

Am I getting the points right for the dreads? Blood angel and space wolf rifleman dreads are 6 points cheaper than SM ones acording to battlescribe, and a whole 15 cheaper than mortis dreads in IA.

Do people think it is worth spending a cp point to let me have a chaplain dread as warlord but still take the Veritas Vitae on a librarian?

Also any ideas as to what mix of psychic powers to take? I found out about the only 1 psychic power of a kind a turn change after making my list which was a bit of a bummer. I wanted to have 3 flying librarian dreads a turn.

Thanks.

Thought about trying to work Bjorn and Murderfang in there, in some kind of SW detachment?

Bjorn is one of the strongest chars in the game right now, and hes in an old traditional venerable dread sarcophagus.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
No leviathan because I wanted to keep the list to what I consider traditional dreads. Also it is very strong and would probably tip the balance and make the list too oppressive in more casual games.

Unlike most armies, this one has no infantry and no small arms fire, so dealing with hordes massed infantry is a concern. In this respect the HB is better than the ac. I think i'll go for HB +AC. That will give the list 12 autocannons, 6 HBs and 10 lascannons, which is a good spread imo.

With split fire as it is now mixing weapons on dreads is much less of a problem.

You also don't have the speed to catch enemy who outrange you, like Eldar, Tau etc.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Am I getting the points right for the dreads? Blood angel and space wolf rifleman dreads are 6 points cheaper than SM ones acording to battlescribe, and a whole 15 cheaper than mortis dreads in IA.

Update battlescribe. Rifleman dreads are 126 for everyone, and rifleman mortis dreads are 135.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Do people think it is worth spending a cp point to let me have a chaplain dread as warlord but still take the Veritas Vitae on a librarian?

Yes, i think so. If you get 2CP back your investment was worth it.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Also any ideas as to what mix of psychic powers to take? I found out about the only 1 psychic power of a kind a turn change after making my list which was a bit of a bummer. I wanted to have 3 flying librarian dreads a turn.

You really need to read the FAQs, this change was introduced 15 (!) month ago.

Your leviathan has a big weakness. He only has two attacks in melee. If a cheap melee unit charges its tied up and cant shoot. And because it has only two attacks, it can only kill two models per turn. You can prevent this with bubble wrapping, but you dont have any infantry units to do it.

Next weakness of your list is horde armies, you cant kill 100, 150 or 200 models. You have no obsec.