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In the Khorne's Sacred Number thread, =Angel= posted a link to a numerology site. I had a quick glance through the supposed 'meanings' of the single- and double-digit numbers and had a bit of an epiphany. I think we've stumbled on one source of inspiration 40K's original writers used to come up with the individual personalities and traits of the Primarchs.

Now, obviously numerology is bunkum, but it's essentially the same bunkum now that it was in the 1980s. The 'meanings' attributed to numbers now are mostly the same as you'd find if you read a book on numerology back then. So it's entirely possible that Rick, Bryan, Andy or whoever read such a book and used it as the basis for some of the original Primarch lore.

Here are some edited highlights, both from the site =Angel= linked to and other numerology sites:

1 (the Lion) - "A doer, a powerful force that produces results and does not allow anything or anyone to limit its potential. ... aggressive ... always in the forefront: a spearpoint directing and leading others. ... walks upright with pride and purpose. Strong, determined, unwavering and with specific goals in mind ... can turn dreams and ideas into reality. It pushes obstacles aside or simply drills right through them. ... tends to have a simple, straightforward view of life and its many complexities. It trusts its own ability to separate right from wrong. It doesn't waste time on abstract ideas or anything else that isn't in line with its pursuit of results. ... no preacher, no philosopher, no spiritual explorer, no dreamer and certainly not an idealist. It is a pragmatist, a ruthless conqueror and a warrior extraordinaire. It is individualistic and independent to a fault. It will attempt to force its values and opinions on you but it won't accept, or even listen to, yours. ... jealous and extremely stubborn, but also courageous and willing to try anything new if it sees promise, even at great danger. ... a sense of honor and responsibility"

3 (Fulgrim) - "a bit spoiled, certainly scattered, and perpetually in need of guidance. ... A powerful need to express feelings, ideas, and visions of the imagination, coupled with an extroverted personality, ... will seek a career in art, especially the verbal arts. His or her social skills are also excellent. Charm, wit, and a sense of humor help a 3 individual along his or her path, and if that weren't enough, good looks and compelling charisma ... a narcissistic streak, a vanity, a need to be the center of attention. ... Without much moral strength or spiritual depth, a 3 can easily succumb to difficulties unless friends and family move in to support it. ... For the 3 to become a well-rounded, balanced and happy person, it must learn discipline."

4 (Perturabo) - "strength and stability. His chief characteristics are dependability, productivity, punctuality and obedience. ... He works steadily and can be very persistent. ... will fight you tooth and nail if you try to muscle in on his territory. He believes in effort and control, and is certainly goal-oriented, but his goals are simple and down to earth. ... doesn't tend to do well in social environments. ... He is a good provider, but demands discipline and loyalty, and in some cases takes discipline too far. He can't handle chaos and is prone to panic attacks if it appears he might not have things fully under control. ... in striving to reach the top he usually finds that his greatest obstacle is himself: his lack of social skills, his inability to relate to the mundane issues of his co-workers and his lack of intuition.

5 (Jaghatai Khan) - "the most dynamic and energetic of all the single-digit numbers. It is unpredictable, always in motion and constantly in need of change. ... extremely independent in mind and soul. She is an adventurer and a risk-taker who has a hard time staying in one place, ... But perhaps the most dominating trait in the 5 is her uncompromising demand for freedom in thought and action. She makes up her own mind, rebels against any and all dogmas and ideologies, and does not allow herself to be absorbed into clubs, cults, religious sects or ideologies of any kind. Her adventurous, daredevil nature may get her to ride motorcycles..."

6 (Leman Russ) - "There are, however, times when the 6 becomes too involved in the lives of those dear to her, to the point that she becomes intrusive and meddling. ... sense of justice is well developed -- when she perceives injustice, she will sacrifice all her time and effort to set things straight. ... The 6 carries herself well and moves gracefully, yet is warm, funny and jovial. ... can be jealous and small-minded, tending to be more focused on the little details while ignoring the bigger pictures ... can be a bad judge of character, ... can also be smug and arrogant, especially toward authority figures or institutions. ... can be annoyingly self-righteous and an intolerant religious zealot. ... sometimes suffers from anxiety and insecurity, even phobias. ... when the unusual happens and the 6 falls into discord and disharmony, it becomes possibly the most destructive and dangerous of all numbers."

7 (Rogal Dorn) - "He will be somewhat introverted, perhaps shy (not to be confused with low self-esteem), never truly comfortable in social settings. The 7 is the intellectual, but his intellect is not always obvious, ... can be aloof, hates gossip and is immune to small-minded backstabbing. Money means nothing to him ... He is not jovial and never superficial. ... He is not usually interested in politics but has a strong sense of justice. ... logical, methodical analysis of facts ... can be cynical, verbally abusive, arrogant and oblivious of the pain and suffering of others. They can be cold-hearted and cruel showing a lack of empathy. Other people's problems simply don't interest them, ... just plain inconsiderate and boorish. ... his (or her) mind is his greatest tool and, at the same time, his greatest limitation. ... always mental and rational, never divine."

8 (Night Haunter / Konrad Curze) - "The 8 is the great Karmic equalizer, a force that just as easily creates as it destroys. When the 8 comes knocking, you can be assured that you will reap what you've sown. ... Some of the more recognizable traits of the 8 are ... discipline and control. ... (the military and law enforcement draw a lot of 8s). ... the energy of the 8 needs to be supported by other numbers in order to flourish, ... negative powers like frustration, dissatisfaction, anger, aggression, greed, intolerance, hate and insomnia. ... you will also find a disproportionate number of 8s among the homeless. ... He can become easily frustrated and lack tolerance for certain people, groups, or even for traits of humanity and society as a whole. ... he could be too unmoving and insistent that his way is best."

9 (Sanguinius) - "the 9 is the most worldly and sophisticated of all numbers. ... has global consciousness. ... walks like a queen, tall and statuesque, yet feels closely connected with the rest of mankind. At the same time, she is hard to reach, seems aloof and tends to float above the small-minded issues that can be so upsetting to others. You either love her or loathe her, but you can't deny her the respect she demands. She has impeccable taste, is talented and creative, and can be quite eloquent when she expresses herself. ... when she sees injustice or suffering, she will not hesitate to devote herself to rectifying it. More importantly, she will not dedicate any energy towards receiving credit for her actions; ... But when circumstances require, she can be a powerful force, strong enough to take over and bend others to her will ... Yet she is not a leader in the way both the 1 and the 8 are leaders; her leadership qualities are in the higher realms of philosophy and justice. ... The most telling attribute of the 9 is the always subtle and hard to pinpoint sense that there is more to her than meets the eye. ... When the 9 appears as a cycle, it often denotes a finality, the completion of an era. The 9 as a cycle is frequently seen as an indicator of death."

10 (Ferrus Manus) - "Powerful leader, sharply focused. Ruthless in the pursuit of goals. ... a lack of consideration and tolerance for other people’s thoughts. There is also a certain numbness about them. ... they should remember to keep in touch with their humanity ... they have difficulty allowing for the imperfections of others."

12 (Angron) - "individualistic, and unconventional ... associated with a rather ominous card in the Major Arcana of the Tarot, called The Hanged Man. ... sacrifice and inner conflict ... It inspires those it interacts with."

13 (Roboute Guilliman) - "Hard working and devoted to slow progress. ... a number of focus and pragmatism. It's primary focus is building a secure foundation for the future. ... It generally knows what it wants and can gain support for its goals from others. ... highly capable, circumventing or dealing with obstructions as they present themselves."

14 (Mortarion) - "The 14th card of the Tarot is called either Temperance or The Angel of Time. ... the Angel of Time is standing in front of the gates to the Underworld. ... The saying ‘be careful what you wish for’ may apply to number 14 people who don’t act with foresight in life."

15 (Magnus) - "The number 15 is curious and tends to pursue a specific ideal. ... It may become an involuntary leader, although leadership generally isn't actively sought. ... Family, Harmony, Exploration, Curiosity, Idealism ... The number 15 feels responsible for the people it perceives are in its charge. It also feels a responsibility to propagate its view of how things should be, seeing resistance to accepting its idealism as a challenge to change its approach and try again. ... there's a determination to express all of one's existence. ... these influences may develop into the sense of pride, covetousness and even addiction ... this is a very stubborn number, and if it is decided, then do not derogate from it, whether that decision is bad or good."

16 (Horus) - "Great potential for spiritual growth and self-knowledge. ... In Tarot, the Tower card exemplifies great change, likely a great change of faith or beliefs. ... Negatively speaking, 16s can be very demanding of themselves and, in turn, of other people. ... They should also keep themselves grounded as they sometimes have the inclination to become lost in a fantasy world. ... represents destruction of the old and birth of the new. The 16 is about the fall of the ego and all that it has built for itself; it is a cleansing. All that has been constructed and all that serves to separate the person from the source of life is destroyed."

17 (Lorgar) - "Seeks spiritual growth, faith and balance. ... Number 17 is associated with the 17th card of the Major Arcana of the Tarot which is The Star. ... The image on the Rider-Waite version of the Tarot is of a night sky with 8 prominent 8-pointed stars."

18 (Vulkan) - "The numerology essence of the number 18 has to do with humanitarianism, independence, and building something of lasting benefit. The underlying idea of the essence of the number 18 is the welfare of humanity. ... the establishment of a humanitarian organization, the use of wealth or connections for philanthropic purposes and the self-sufficiency and determination to produce profound outcomes for the betterment of humanity. ... kind, warm and accepting of others. ... 'What has been spoiled through man’s fault can be made good again through man’s work'."

19 (Corvus Corax) - "Strong and individualistic; self-reliant and confident. ... may indicate that you have unreconciled karmic debts surrounding issues involving independence and individuality. Because of this, you will find yourself pushed into leadership positions, even if you are not interested in them. ... 19 is often alone. ... the person yearns to be independent and to explore new ways and means to accomplish things. ... It means that you should not wait for help from outside but initiate your journey on your own."

20 (Alpharius Omegon) - "Overly sensitive, intuitive and vulnerable to criticism. ... In Tarot, the Judgement card reflects internal conflict affecting a major decision. ... the Judgement card concerns personal decisions and their relation to destiny. ... The universal number 20 is a number representing duality, a number belonging to both God and the Devil. ... Negatively speaking, 20s can be too rash and allow their sensitivity and a strong desire for friendship to sway them one way or the other."

Some are really spookily close to descriptions of the Primarchs. Some are, honestly, a bit of a stretch (and I freely admit I've been rather selective). Some fit quite well with earlier versions of the Primarchs, but less so with them as they are portrayed in the HH novels. Alpharius originally sided with Horus because of his massive inferiority complex as the youngest brother, for example, before the HH novels retconned him and his legion into a bunch of Colonel Flaggs.

Anyway, what do you all think?

Yeah that's pretty interesting. I also always wondered why the 4 Primarchs that fell to the 4 specific Chaos alignments didn't match those number (Fulgrim should be 6, Magnus 9, Angron 8 and Mortarion 7).
Now their numbers make more sense

-

Interesting. I wouldn't be surprised if the writers did use numerology as inspiration: if I had to come up with 18 different characters at once, I'd probably start there too!

By that same logic, what kind of personality would the missing primarchs have, by the way?

What about the two forgotten primarchs ?

As the most feminine among all numbers, the 2 is also the most underestimated -- at least, when it comes to power and strength. After all, she is almost always gentle, tactful, diplomatic, forgiving and understanding. Certainly, she likes to keep the peace and will avoid confrontations as much as possible.

- so perhaps the leader of the 2nd legion refused to fight, attempting to seek comprimise with Xenos?

11 Highly intuitive, even psychic.

- generally each primarch seems to have a "spare" dorn and perty being the most obvious example. Could this be Magus' oppisite number? and perhaps the 11th legion was destroyed by their own version of the flesh change.

That's so interesting and fitting ! Thank you for bringing this up !

Off-topic, but what’s wrong with the Primarch of the Dark Angels that he doesn’t get called by his proper name?

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Off-topic, but what’s wrong with the Primarch of the Dark Angels that he doesn’t get called by his proper name?

the Lion IS his name, Lion el Johnson is, in the tongue of Caliban "the Lion of the forest" apparently.

Galef wrote:(Fulgrim should be 6, Magnus 9, Angron 8 and Mortarion 7)

Mortarion's number is double Nurgle's number of course. Actually, Mortarion is kind of irritating. As you might have realised from how little I quoted in his entry, he's not a very good fit with my theory. I'd say that of all the Primarchs he's the most different from what his numerology suggests. Makes me wonder if he was sort of shoehorned in because they needed a Nurgle Primarch.

IIRC, Night Haunter was originally (in RT-era fluff) meant to have turned to Khorne, which would have fitted with his number. The Night Lords were the 'evil vampire' Marines, contrasting with the 'noble vampire' Blood Angels. Turning them into psychopathic sadists led by Evil Batman was a 2nd edition retcon.

Tiennos wrote:if I had to come up with 18 different characters at once, I'd probably start there too!

Me too, probably. That or Tarot symbolism, which overlaps a lot with numerology as some of my quotes suggest.

BrianDavion wrote:- so perhaps the leader of the 2nd legion refused to fight, attempting to seek comprimise with Xenos?
- generally each primarch seems to have a "spare" dorn and perty being the most obvious example. Could this be Magus' oppisite number? and perhaps the 11th legion was destroyed by their own version of the flesh change.

Both fit with the hints given in the HH novels about one of the missing Primarchs being 'purged' and the other 'lost'. Flat-out rejecting the Emperor's vision in the name of pacifism would logically get one purged, while 'lost' implies an accident or something that wasn't necessarily the Primarchs fault but was still shameful enough to get them deleted from history - a psychic/Warp-related incident like what happened on Ganymede seems a good possibility.

AndrewGPaul wrote:Off-topic, but what’s wrong with the Primarch of the Dark Angels that he doesn’t get called by his proper name?

It's purely that I can never remember how to spell his dumb surname.

Mortarian fits better then you might think actually.. the time element is parituclkarly important given that time = entropy which is Nurgle's domain, but looking at the rest..

"The number 7 is the seeker, the thinker, the searcher of Truth (notice the capital "T"). It doesn't take anything at face value always trying to understand the underlying hidden truths. The 7 knows that nothing is exactly as it seems and that reality is often hidden behind illusions."

- Mortarian is perhaps the most cynical of his brothers. IIRC various novels suggested that he was studying chaos scientificly and trying to understand it, refusing to accept that it was just "magic" and that he could given time understand it.

"A person who has a chart dominated by the 7 is usually easily picked out of a group. He will be somewhat introverted, perhaps shy (not to be confused with low self-esteem), never truly comfortable in social settings"

- This could apply to Mortarian.

"The 7 is physically lanky and tall, but not athletic"

- DEFINATLY Morty


"7s are opinionated and tend to know something about everything" - yeah sounds like Morty alright he had very strong opinions.

so yeah Morty seems to line up with some stuff at 7... although honestly number 7 sounds more like an Asperger's case study then anything

Those are all for the number 7, though, not 14. In numerology, 14 is supposed to be more like a combination of 1, 4 and 5 (1+4) traits.

Honestly, it would work better if Dorn and Mortarion swapped over. Then Dorn would be the Angel of Temperance guarding the Gates of Eternity and Morty would be the cynical and lanky weirdo.

I think Mortarion remains the one that just doesn't fit very well. Which is ironic, given that Mortarion himself (at least as portrayed in Plague War) seems absolutely obsessed with numerology, to the point that even the other daemons of Nurgle think he takes it a bit too seriously.

This was super interesting. Thanks for sharing and I could use this for characterisation purposes for my writing (Used the four temperaments, the Myers-Briggs and this year my Creative Writing teacher introduced me the Jungian Archetypes) Anything to add to my writing arsenal is great!

Good stuff. Too similar not to have been an influence I recon and those two for the missing legions could be used as a theory to explain things. 11 too psychic and the 2nd were girls. And we know how everyone feels about girl marines!

(Just a joke please no one bite, this is a good topic, don’t get it shut down.)

Not sure if the kids are just finding out about this.
Or

BrianDavion wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Off-topic, but what’s wrong with the Primarch of the Dark Angels that he doesn’t get called by his proper name?

the Lion IS his name, Lion el Johnson is, in the tongue of Caliban "the Lion of the forest" apparently.

Lionel Johnson was also a real person who wrote poems about sensitive crimes in a punt with a chap called Norman.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lionel_Johnson

DARK Angel, with thine aching lust
To rid the world of penitence:
Malicious Angel, who still dost
My soul such subtile violence!

Because of thee, no thought, no thing,
Abides for me undesecrate:
Dark Angel, ever on the wing,
Who never reachest me too late!

https://www.poemhunter.com/poem/the-dark-angel-2/

And calling anyone in a space fantasy game Lionel is just grating. Worse than Margaret thatcher.

Andykp wrote:
And calling anyone in a space fantasy game Lionel is just grating. Worse than Margaret thatcher.

Ghazakul Mag Urk Thraka

BrianDavion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
And calling anyone in a space fantasy game Lionel is just grating. Worse than Margaret thatcher.

Ghazakul Mag Urk Thraka

That’s her!

Of course it's bunkem, but still could have been used as inspiration, but could any of these be attributed to other primarchs? Maybe you're looking into it a bit deeply?

Basically if you read an astrology chart or piece in the paper and ignore the fact that YOU will be one of them, and read another one... that can more or less equally apply to you.