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So, the new generals handbook has given us a handful of changes and I thought it may be worth making a thread to chat about it. Reading through my views are as follows.

Mighty destroyers became a command trait, making it more expensive but more reliable.
We now have access to a few more standard command traits, re-rolls of 1 to hit or armour save. Brutes being what they are rarely will need that hit buff but goregruntas and ardboys could use it in tandem with a warchanter or 3 to hit most of the time.
Our traits haven't changed much and often I feel the re-roll to megaboss's waagh is going to be the main one taken, I believe it still can be put on none Megaboss'
Relics again have stayed mostly the same. Though now the Rend relic has been changed to a flat -3 which could be okay.

The big thing is the new spell list. We got Da Jump, which apparently every type of greenskin is contractually bound to have. A pair of 1 to D3 smites for 5 casting. A rather nice spell that gives a unit re-rolls to wound which I think will be used frequently, maybe on a massive blob of ardboyz or on megaboss to bump up their damage. An interesting spell that does mortal wounds on rolls that are generated based on how many units are hanging around. The ironskulls boys would be a cheap and cheerful generation of a roll I suppose. The other one being a 4D6 line that causes mortal wounds on 5+ for every model (not unit yay!) that it passes over. Probably best used after the battle lines have met and the enemies are all nicely lined up for you.

Quite a few units also got cheaper, allowing you to get more stuffed into your list. I don't think any warscrolls have changed but if you noticed bring it up.

The megabattalions did change a little, the -1 to hit is now on a 2+ but from the wording it only seems to be the first player turn.
The one that lets your megaboss count have killing a character has been bumped up to a d3 which can get pretty mean.

Do you think these changes are going to shake up your list? Bump up our competitiveness or fun of play?

Krumpin gits iz fun. Anyfing wot gets us to da krumpin quicker iz more funerer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On a more serious note I think that teleportation lends a little more competitive viability in many different ways. More spell options is always welcome. Ill trade reliability for cost any day of the week, so the mighty destroyers change seems like a buff. I think the game has changed for the 'jawz, with the harshest change being the max 1 extra command point thing. Removing the turn 1 or 2 uber-Waaaagh alpha strike hits /most/ 'jawz lists I've seen recently. I think though that enough tools were added to the toolbox that there will be more viable builds than there were previously, its just going to take some table time to figure out what they are.

With our stacking buffs the TP spell is terrifying for Ironjaws. Take the ironsunz for the 1+ charge and the native one for being inronjawz, throw in goddrakks waagh for the 3d6 charge and TP the unit of your choice (let's say a large buffed up units of brutes or maybe a megaboss on mawkrusha) and you have an exceptionally easy charge anywhere on the table turn one.

Ironjawz just got a ton of tools to help them adapt to the battlefield and enemies they face, which is huge and something they desperately needed. Before they could do little beyond run forward and hit hard, hoping it was enough. If it wasn't, tough luck. Mighty Destroyers allowing for a hero phase melee attack is a BIG deal, as are those support spells. I don't expect to see the damage spells taken very often.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Ironjawz just got a ton of tools to help them adapt to the battlefield and enemies they face, which is huge and something they desperately needed. Before they could do little beyond run forward and hit hard, hoping it was enough. If it wasn't, tough luck. Mighty Destroyers allowing for a hero phase melee attack is a BIG deal, as are those support spells. I don't expect to see the damage spells taken very often.

Wait the Mighty Destroyers actually allows an extra round of melee? I thought it was just a useless charge where you have to sit around waiting for later like it used to be.

Yeah it does. Do you not have the new GHB yet?

Yup, but may or may not have skimmed over that part. Certainly going to have a closer look. Because a Megaboss or meaty unit attacking twice a turn is rather delicious.

Gotcha, it's just one part of a sentence so easy to miss!

I've heard somewhere that unless specified otherwise you can use a command ability multiple times in the one command phase. Thus a Megaboss can use his waaagh as many times as you have command points, giving every lad around him attacks for each cast. That sounds a little off, surely it's not the case but I can't find anything to refute it.

It is the case, though they have frequently errata'd abilities to say they cannot target the same unit multiple times.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
It is the case, though they have frequently errata'd abilities to say they cannot target the same unit multiple times.

The FAQ Ironjawz Design Commentary addresses this:

Q: Can I use the Mighty Waaagh! and/or Waaagh! command abilities to affect the same unit more than once in the same phase? Yes.

OK, incoming post!

I'm pretty frustrated with my Ironjawz. I either win really big, or get tabled. And the winning is getting harder and harder. The army is super easy to play- move forward, charge, fight. There are a lot of rough edges in the army that I wish GW would address- things like why we have the (worst wizard in the game) only wizard in the game that has a 1-6 chance of dealing mortal wounds to an Ironjawz unit every time it casts a spell, or attempts a dissbinding successful or not, or why the Megaboss has a Battalion Warscroll and a buff for Brutes that doesn't apply to him (as in, why isn't the Megaboss a Brute?). I don't miss the shooting phase, but a 4+ save and lots of wounds does little against a shooting army. I miss the lack of mortal wound generation other armies have.

Would love a Nob model, somewhere between a Mogaboss and a Brute, that could buff 'Ardboyz. The Warchanter just... his buff is good, but that's it. The two models I feel I have to take in every list, but have the most lack luster performance of my entire army irks me.

Re: New Greenskin book: It really looks like GW is simply combining all the Orcs into one book, and not really addressing the specific issues of Ironjawz. Something is better then nothing though. /shrug

Love the models, and kinda wish the strategies available to the Ironjawz were more then move, charge, fight.

 Tamwulf wrote:
There are a lot of rough edges in the army that I wish GW would address- things like why we have the (worst wizard in the game)

I'd love to hear why you think this is the case.

 Tamwulf wrote:

Re: New Greenskin book: It really looks like GW is simply combining all the Orcs into one book, and not really addressing the specific issues of Ironjawz. Something is better then nothing though. /shrug

If the Cities of Sigmar book is anything to go off of, I'd expect more than just a combined battletome.

After reading the tidbits that CoS will receive(new rules for units, new allegiance abilities) I'm pretty excited for what the Orruk Warclans will have to offer. Granted, it most certainly won't be on the scope of the CoS due to the difference in what is available in their miniature library, I think there is plenty of reason to be hopeful.*

I had been debating starting an Ironjawz army shortly after GHB19 dropped with some welcome changes and if this new battletome gives them further upgrades and options, I'll finally pull the trigger on starting a new army now that I've decided I won't make my Fyreslayers army any bigger and my Tzaangor focused BoC army is just a slow grow thing that I'm already losing motivation on.

*With that said, fingers crossed that GW doesn't gak the bed on the Orruk Warclans book.

 mokoshkana wrote:

 Tamwulf wrote:
There are a lot of rough edges in the army that I wish GW would address- things like why we have the (worst wizard in the game)

I'd love to hear why you think this is the case.

Is there any other Wizard in the game with a 1 in 6 chance of every time it rolls to disbind or cast a spell doing d3 mortal wounds to Ironjawz models? Successful or not? The Shaman has to be within 10" of at least 10 models to get +1 to the casting roll, which just happens to coincide with the above mortal wound rule. With the exception of the base spells (Arcane Bolt and Mystic Shield), all his spells have some kind of weird random component. If successfully cast (no brainer, duh), pick a point within 2d6". Then roll another d6, then roll a d3... just... why? Or pick up a unit wholly within 12" and place it somewhere else on the board more than 9" away from your opponent. That's their movement for the turn. Ummm... I can see the use of that in some very particular, corner case situations, but, corner case situations. Allowing a unit to reroll all hits is great, but hitting is not an issue. Ironjawz already have a model that hands out +1 to hit, a Megaboss that helps Brutes on 1's, or rerolls on models with four or more wounds, or Ironjawz already throw out a ton of attacks. I've never felt "hit deficient" with Ironjawz. The brain-melting spell? Multiple rolls for it to do nothing, and using it to character snipe when the characters I would want to use it on have some kind of save vs. mortal wounds anyways. What is the point of 'Ead Butt when you have Arcane Bolt that has a longer range? The draw a line 4d6" and roll more dice... too random.

The spell listing out of the GHB 2019 helped the Shaman a lot, but the spells are far from utilitarian and do little to help the army out.

In an army of "Go Big or Go Home", the Shaman should just stay home, but he's the only source, the ONLY source of disbinding we have, and he only gets one chance at it, and a 1 in 6 of hurting your own army every time he attempts it. The rise of Endless Spells makes it almost mandatory that you have some kind of Wizard. The Ironjawz Shaman is over priced for what he brings to the table.

 Tamwulf wrote:
Is there any other Wizard in the game with a 1 in 6 chance of every time it rolls to disbind or cast a spell doing d3 mortal wounds to Ironjawz models? Successful or not? The Shaman has to be within 10" of at least 10 models to get +1 to the casting roll, which just happens to coincide with the above mortal wound rule.

The MW potentially done by the wizard are against models that are 2W a piece and can be given a 6+ MW ignore from shields. You're losing less than an average of an Ardboy a turn due to casting (assuming every spell cast is doubles).

 Tamwulf wrote:
With the exception of the base spells (Arcane Bolt and Mystic Shield), all his spells have some kind of weird random component. If successfully cast (no brainer, duh), pick a point within 2d6". Then roll another d6, then roll a d3... just... why?

Likely because they are Orruks. Weirdness is one of the main tenants of Orruks...

 Tamwulf wrote:
Or pick up a unit wholly within 12" and place it somewhere else on the board more than 9" away from your opponent. That's their movement for the turn. Ummm... I can see the use of that in some very particular, corner case situations, but, corner case situations.

This is one of the best spells in the game. Numerous armies would love the ability to redeploy a unit anywhere on the board. Couple that with the fact that Orruks have ways of buffing and rerolling charges. Think Maw-krusha getting into the target of its choice on turn 1 or 2...

 Tamwulf wrote:
In an army of "Go Big or Go Home", the Shaman should just stay home, but he's the only source, the ONLY source of disbinding we have, and he only gets one chance at it, and a 1 in 6 of hurting your own army every time he attempts it. The rise of Endless Spells makes it almost mandatory that you have some kind of Wizard. The Ironjawz Shaman is over priced for what he brings to the table.

While there is the potential to suffer a penalty on unbinds, please note that very few other casters in the game get bonuses to unbinds. Additionally there are other armies which have ZERO access to wizards that would take this ability in a heartbeat. As for the rest of the spells, look at other books and notice that most suffer from garbage spells.

The latest AOS Community Insider gives me some hope that the Ironjawz will get some new choices when it comes to fielding an army. If we get a couple Warscroll Battalions that offer Orruks + Ironjaws, then that will open up list building (and play style). I hope Ironjawz keep their Command Abilities because they are awesome! The Destruction Alligance abilities are great too. Please GW, don't muck that up too!

The MW potentially done by the wizard are against models that are 2W a piece and can be given a 6+ MW ignore from shields. You're losing less than an average of an Ardboy a turn due to casting (assuming every spell cast is doubles).

Assuming that 'Ardboys are the ones closest to the Shaman. Also, the 'Ardboyz kit does not come with any shields, so I have no idea where you would get Ironjawz shields for the unit.

Likely because they are Orruks. Weirdness is one of the main tenants of Orruks...

This would be accurate, except the other Orruk armies don't have this much randomness to them.

This is one of the best spells in the game. Numerous armies would love the ability to redeploy a unit anywhere on the board. Couple that with the fact that Orruks have ways of buffing and rerolling charges. Think Maw-krusha getting into the target of its choice on turn 1 or 2...

In all my games with my Ironjawz, getting closer and making charges has never been an issue. My Mawkrusha has always been able to charge on turn 1 and get stuck in for the rest of the game. Come on! Hero phase: free d6" move. Then a 12" move, and then a charge of 2d6+1". On a unit that can fly. No, "redeploying" an Ironjawz units to somewhere else on the table, more than 9" away from an enemy model and then trying to make a 9"+ charge is a very, very bad tactical move.

While there is the potential to suffer a penalty on unbinds, please note that very few other casters in the game get bonuses to unbinds. Additionally there are other armies which have ZERO access to wizards that would take this ability in a heartbeat. As for the rest of the spells, look at other books and notice that most suffer from garbage spells.

All the Ironjawz spells have a casting value of 5-7, with two spells requiring an 8. As the average on 2d6 is a 7, we don't really need modifiers to cast. And while the modifiers for disbinding are nice, 1 in 6 chance of d3 mortal wounds... no thank you. Other armies get bonuses to do both with no chance of hurting themselves.

The hand of Gork spell is amazing. Move unit 9" away from target, use Ironfist move to get closer if you selected that battalion, charge, reroll with command point if necessary if you fail. I'm thinking of taking two shamans in my 200 pt. list for this very spell.

Question on Mighty Destroyers, it says you can fight after making the 3" pile in but does not specify that you can fight immediately after making a charge. Is the only benefit an early charge? If so I don't see why it's a good option...why not just wait to charge during the charge phase instead of burning a command point?

 Tamwulf wrote:

The MW potentially done by the wizard are against models that are 2W a piece and can be given a 6+ MW ignore from shields. You're losing less than an average of an Ardboy a turn due to casting (assuming every spell cast is doubles).

Assuming that 'Ardboys are the ones closest to the Shaman. Also, the 'Ardboyz kit does not come with any shields, so I have no idea where you would get Ironjawz shields for the unit.

If you are trying to make use of the casting bonus, then just ensure your shaman is closest to a unit of Ardboyz. It really isn't that hard. As for the kit not coming with shields, I don't know where you are getting that. https://www.tabletopgamer.com/ironjawz-orruk-ardboyz-unboxing/ That clearly shows me there are 12 shields in a kit...

 Tamwulf wrote:

Likely because they are Orruks. Weirdness is one of the main tenants of Orruks...

This would be accurate, except the other Orruk armies don't have this much randomness to them.

Orks and Goblins have always been weird and had random elements. If it isn't your thing, maybe look at another army?

 Tamwulf wrote:

This is one of the best spells in the game. Numerous armies would love the ability to redeploy a unit anywhere on the board. Couple that with the fact that Orruks have ways of buffing and rerolling charges. Think Maw-krusha getting into the target of its choice on turn 1 or 2...

In all my games with my Ironjawz, getting closer and making charges has never been an issue. My Mawkrusha has always been able to charge on turn 1 and get stuck in for the rest of the game. Come on! Hero phase: free d6" move. Then a 12" move, and then a charge of 2d6+1". On a unit that can fly. No, "redeploying" an Ironjawz units to somewhere else on the table, more than 9" away from an enemy model and then trying to make a 9"+ charge is a very, very bad tactical move.

The tactical viability of being able to redeploy an entire unit of your choosing once per round is massive. Ironjawz love to fight, but they need to be given the right fight. If your opponent dictates the fight, then you are going to have a hard time coming out on top.

 Tamwulf wrote:

While there is the potential to suffer a penalty on unbinds, please note that very few other casters in the game get bonuses to unbinds. Additionally there are other armies which have ZERO access to wizards that would take this ability in a heartbeat. As for the rest of the spells, look at other books and notice that most suffer from garbage spells.

All the Ironjawz spells have a casting value of 5-7, with two spells requiring an 8. As the average on 2d6 is a 7, we don't really need modifiers to cast. And while the modifiers for disbinding are nice, 1 in 6 chance of d3 mortal wounds... no thank you. Other armies get bonuses to do both with no chance of hurting themselves.

You go from having an average chance of casting a spell to having a better than average chance of casting the spell, and that is bad? There are armies who have NO wizards available. If you hate the shaman that much, don't use it. Ally in some Savage Orruk wizards and use them. Ironjawz has been showing up in top 10 results from tournaments since the GHB has dropped. I suggest researching those lists/play styles if you are struggling against a certain opponent/list.