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Most armies in 8e have army-wide special rules that influence (or outright govern) how they play, like For the Greater Good, Voice Of Command, Cult Ambush, and so on. Each of these rules improve or allow a certain kind of behaviour across the whole army, thereby encouraging players to act in ways suited to that faction. The intent here is usually pretty clear – Mob Rule encourages Orks to field huge units of Boyz and pack them close together... just like Orks should. Power From Pain encourages Drukhari to seize the initiative, escalate the conflict, and move in for the kill... just like Drukhari should. Synapse and its associated rules encourage Tyranids to cover their army with an umbrella of synapse beasts, and opponents to take down those beasts first... just like Tyranids and their opponents should.

With that in mind, can someone explain the intent behind Canticles of the Omnissiah?

Don't get me wrong, I like having a free, only semi-random bonus each turn. I just don't get how it's meant to represent the tactics or nature of the AdMech. It's a bonus you pick each battle round that applies to your whole army, and you can't pick twice unless you go random. Half the results don't drive behaviour individually (Iron Soul is purely reactive, Shroudpsalm is basically always good, and Benediction is redundant with your HQ options), so it's got to be the overall structure that's important. How is this meant to make me behave? The best I can come up with is that it's meant to represent the stiff, inflexible nature of the AdMech; pick the cover bonus, and your combat units will suffer by comparison. Therefore, you should put all your units in combat or none of them, to get the most out of it... Except the bonuses aren't weighty enough to change your whole battle plan like that.

Alternatively, maybe it's meant to represent AdMech pre-programming and planning ahead? Pick the bonus carefully, because you'll be out of luck if you need it later... Except you can still roll for it randomly if you're out of good options, and taking Cawl+Mars means you're almost guaranteed to have your pick of options each turn. Am I missing something?

You're being too literal in your attempts to find fluff reasons. They're designed the way they are as both a way to balance the effects and as a way to give the AdMech player some choices to think about.

The simplest answer is "It doesn't mean anything".

They jammed two separate books(Skitarii and Cult) into one, and stripped the better mechanic(Skitarii's Doctrina Imperatives) out to instead become Stratagems and the lesser mechanic(Canticles) was altered and made into the 'default' mechanism.

Canticles, upon their original inception, granted different levels of the bonus based upon the number of units with Canticles on the field. They stripped that and instead just made it so the most basic of the old levels is there.

 Sim-Life wrote:
You're being too literal in your attempts to find fluff reasons. They're designed the way they are as both a way to balance the effects and as a way to give the AdMech player some choices to think about.

Let me clarify what I'm asking; Imperial Guard have Voice of Command, and Orks have 'Ere We Go. Voice of Command allows Imperial Guard players to give powerful buffs to single units through their officers. 'Ere We Go allows Orks to successfully charge enemy units more reliably. These two rules encourage very different kinds of behaviour – reckless attempts at charging for Orks, and careful management of officers-and-troops for Imperial Guard. Different rules for different behaviour in different armies. Adeptus Mechancius get a semi-random bonus across their whole army every turn... and I don't understand how that encourages the AdMech to act like the AdMech on the battlefield.[/list]

Do you get where I'm coming from? It's not about fluff, it's about how the army plays. What does the Canticles rule do for the AdMech, and what does that have to do with being the AdMech?

No other army just gets a blanket bonus for no reason, random or otherwise. Every other army's rules have a clear cause-and-effect and influence how the army plays, whether that's something as simple as "you run away less" or as complex as Cult Ambush. I'm trying to work out what I'm missing for Canticles, because right now it seems like the only exception in the game. The closest equivalent is Power From Pain, but that clearly encourages a specific kind of behaviour – it scales up over time, opens with a survivability bonus, then gives you a charge bonus, a close combat bonus, another survivability bonus, and a second close combat bonus. If you hit turn 4 without charging or fighting anything, you've wasted half the game's worth of Power From Pain. So it encourages you to maneuver on turn 1, charge on turn 2+, and fight on turn 3+.

Canticles doesn't seem to have anything like this kind of clear impact. Am I missing something?

It's effectively prayers/chants having a physical effect of some kind via the Noosphere surrounding them.

And it's worth noting, again, that these are the inferior versions of what used to be.

To use an example? Shroudpsalm, when you had 8+ units on the field with the Canticles rule on them, gave you Shrouded and Stealth. Benediction let you reroll all failed Hit Rolls with ranged weapons not just 1s(1-3) or 1s and 2s(4-7).

This was balanced out by the fact that Cult had no cheap troops. These Canticles could be used once per game, excepting if you had a Cult Mechanicus "Battle Congregation" Detachment(1HQ 2 Troops optional 6 Troops 4 Elites and 2 HS), where you got the "Divine Chorus" Detachment rule allowing you once per game to choose to reuse a Canticle you've already used.

There's no rhyme, there's no reason to what we have now. We just have it. I'd trade it in a heartbeat for them returning it to Canticles on the "Cult" units(the different flavors of Priests, Kastelans, and Kataphrons) and Doctrina Imperatives returning to Skitarii alongside their "advance move".


That's the best answer I can give you. It's also what anyone who followed the army from its original release should/would be telling you.

RevlidRas wrote:
I think you've misunderstood the question I'm asking.

Every model and army has specific characteristics and abilities, which were deliberately designed to produce a certain effect. At the most basic level, Marines have a higher Save characteristic than Guard, which shows that Marines are tougher than Guard. At a higher end, White Scars Marines get a bonus to Advancing, which regular Marines don't. This shows that White Scars are faster than regular Marines, and encourages them to zip around the board by Advancing.

Imperial Guard have Voice of Command, and Orks have 'Ere We Go. Voice of Command allows Imperial Guard players to give powerful buffs to single units through their officers. 'Ere We Go allows Orks to successfully charge enemy units more reliably. These two rules encourage very different kinds of behaviour – reckless attempts at charging for Orks, and careful management of officers-and-troops for Imperial Guard. Different rules for different behaviour in different armies.

Adeptus Mechancius get a semi-random bonus across their whole army every turn. I do not see what this has to do with the Adeptus Mechanicus, or how it creates behaviour that resembles the Adeptus Mechanicus on the battlefield.

Do you get where I'm coming from? It's not about fluff, it's about how the army plays. What does the Canticles rule do for the AdMech, and what does that have to do with being the AdMech?

No other army just gets a blanket bonus for no reason, random or otherwise. Every other army's rules have a clear cause-and-effect and influence how the army plays, whether that's something as simple as "you run away less" or as complex as Cult Ambush. I'm trying to work out what I'm missing for Canticles, because right now it seems like the only exception in the game. The closest equivalent is Power From Pain, but that clearly encourages a specific kind of behaviour – it scales up over time, opens with a survivability bonus, then gives you a charge bonus, a close combat bonus, another survivability bonus, and a second close combat bonus. If you hit turn 4 without charging or fighting anything, you've wasted half the game's worth of Power From Pain. So it encourages you to maneuver on turn 1, charge on turn 2+, and fight on turn 3+.

Canticles doesn't seem to have anything like this kind of clear impact. It's just... a thing you get. Is that the case, or am I missing something?

From the 7th edition Cult Mech book: "In times of war, the disciples of the Omnissiah incant complex war-blessings. These are as much optimization subroutines as they are expressions of faith in their all-knowing, all-comprehending deity."
The important word there is optimization. The idea is that the leaders of an Ad Mech force, in fluff it is said that they are more often then not in space watching the situation rather then being of the battlefield, are watching the battle and changing how the warriors mechanical parts function depending of the situation. If they expect a large amount of enemy fire they activate the stealth subroutines, to return fire they active the sensors and in close combat they active the bionics to work at full effect.
Think of it kind of like how in many science fiction stories that involve space battles were the captain may say something like "Redirect power from the engines to the forward shields."

Also in your examples the basic effect that the Ad Mech has is the (almost) army wide invulnerable saves they have represented by their bionic parts or force fields.

"what does that have to do with being the AdMech" The idea (however poorly implimented) is that the Ad Mech and change how they fight depending on the situation.

 Kanluwen wrote:
That's the best answer I can give you. It's also what anyone who followed the army from its original release should/would be telling you.

Interesting! So the current version of Canticles is basically a legacy mechanic that doesn't quite achieve what it used to?

 KingGarland wrote:

"what does that have to do with being the AdMech" The idea (however poorly implimented) is that the Ad Mech and change how they fight depending on the situation.

I see what you're saying, but I feel like that's an idea which is better-represented by mechanics like the Manipulus being able to swap between one of two auras, or the Kastellan Robots having their three different Protocols. I look at those and see optimization and planning and re-engineering and so on; Canticles doesn't hit the same button.

I always just kinda viewed Canticles as Army-Wide Psyker Powers that cannot be Denied and Auto-Succeed with no chance of Perils. Seen that way, I feel like they're in a pretty good place.

 flandarz wrote:
I always just kinda viewed Canticles as Army-Wide Psyker Powers that cannot be Denied and Auto-Succeed with no chance of Perils. Seen that way, I feel like they're in a pretty good place.

pretty much this. I always though of them as a buff on top of their chapter bonus equivalent that just happens. I figured the random aspect was less about fluff and more about the game balance. it might work out that you get a nice buff or it might be of little value. Either way it does always go off, no mortal wounds from perils, not chance to fail with a low roll, and its still a buff maybe just no always the ideal one.

In Kill Team they are there to be a pain in my backside. Unless, I am playing Admech.

But seriously, I kinda like the idea of Canticles and similar rules. I greatly prefer Canticles, Orders, Combat Drugs over Stratagems/Tactics and Command Points. They are things that kinda give the controlling player some decision points to make while not requiring resource management like Command Points. It wouldn't bothering me if every faction had something like them especially if it meant that stratagems influence on games were greatly reduced or eliminated entirely.

RevlidRas wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
That's the best answer I can give you. It's also what anyone who followed the army from its original release should/would be telling you.

Interesting! So the current version of Canticles is basically a badly-imported legacy mechanic that doesn't achieve what it used to?

Doesn't achieve what it used to, doesn't matter like it used to, and stripped a far more flavorful army out of its mechanic.

There's a reason why it wasn't really cared about last edition. Nobody ran 8+ units of Cult Mechanicus. It wasn't even until the Agents of the Imperium book that the normal Servitors and Enginseers got put into Cult Mechanicus to let you potentially not have to run one of the limited edition Formations.

 flandarz wrote:
I always just kinda viewed Canticles as Army-Wide Psyker Powers that cannot be Denied and Auto-Succeed with no chance of Perils. Seen that way, I feel like they're in a pretty good place.

I mean, don't get me wrong - they're useful. I just don't know why they're there. Other armies mostly don't just get random buffs, they get buffs that help them do the stuff that army's meant to do. Like how Cadians get buffs for standing still and shooting, and Farsight get buffs for running up close and shooting, and so on. Canticles stand out to me because they don't help AdMech do anything in particular, they're just... a collection of buffs. So normally I'd look to the overall structure of those buffs to explain what it's meant to do, but even that's pretty random.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
But seriously, I kinda like the idea of Canticles and similar rules. I greatly prefer Canticles, Orders, Combat Drugs over Stratagems/Tactics and Command Points. They are things that kinda give the controlling player some decision points to make while not requiring resource management like Command Points.

I don't necessarily disagree, but I look at those rules differently from Canticles.

Combat Drugs is a specific, customizable buff to a specific range of units, and has an element of randomness because drugs have unpredictable effects etc. It's all combat-focused, and so are those units, so it's basically closer to a strategic-level Chaos Spawn mutation ability for each of those units. The effect of Combat Drugs is: Wyches are good at close combat (but have slightly unpredictable buffs), so use them for close combat.

Orders rely on a specific interaction between specific characters and specific units to give powerful buffs to the latter, one per turn. The effect of Orders is: keep an Officer near vital points, and Order the right unit to do the thing you desperately need done.

Canticles affect every unit at once, don't rely on anything, don't all benefit the same thing, aren't triggered by anything, can affect wildly different situations and styles of play, and don't have predictable restrictions. The effect of Canticles is: you have Canticles.

You get what I'm driving at?

Well, like I said, I view them in the same vein as Psyker Powers. For example, Orkz have 6 Psyker Powers. Da Jump moves units. Warpath and Fists of Gork buff units. 'Eadbanger and Da Krunch injure enemy units. Roar of Mork debuffa enemy units. Just like Canticles, there are a variety of effects; some good, some meh, and some awful. What I'm saying is that comparing Canticles to things like 'Ere We Go isnt really a good comparison. A better one is to compare it to Psyker powers, which tend to do similar things (obviously with some differences).

 flandarz wrote:
Well, like I said, I view them in the same vein as Psyker Powers. For example, Orkz have 6 Psyker Powers. Da Jump moves units. Warpath and Fists of Gork buff units. 'Eadbanger and Da Krunch injure enemy units. Roar of Mork debuffa enemy units. Just like Canticles, there are a variety of effects; some good, some meh, and some awful. What I'm saying is that comparing Canticles to things like 'Ere We Go isnt really a good comparison. A better one is to compare it to Psyker powers, which tend to do similar things (obviously with some differences).

Well, no, not really?

Psychic powers are tied to a specific unit. They don't directly influence how the whole army plays, they give the army a single tool - a psyker - with a broad range of powerful but somewhat unreliable uses. You pick which ones you want to have available, and you can try to use a limited number each turn. If anything, a psyker is more like a powerful, flexible piece of artillery. Psychic powers are also limited in their scope, and explosive in their power. Da Jump allows you to redeploy one unit - it doesn't give you a small but army-wide movement bonus.

Orders are much closer to a "psychic power equivalent" than Canticles. Canticles really aren't anything like psychic powers. If anything, they're most like Chapter Tactics and similar <FACTION> traits. A passive, straightforward bonus across the whole army. In most cases, they're directly comparable: Shroudpsalm can be compared to Traits for Orks and Tyranids, Machine Might is a Trait for Astra Militarum, Drukhari, and Genestealer Cults, Iron Soul is a Chaos Trait, Benediction is a Trait for Astra Militarum, Orks, and Aeldari, etc...

There is nothing that is close to Canticles outside of the Tau's Mont'ka/Kauyon stuff.

The fact you keep arguing against people explaining their reasoning of things is tiresome. There is no right or wrong answer beyond "Because someone decided to do it this way". We will likely never have a solid answer as to why they did it the way they did beyond "They wanted to roll two codices into one" and they likely felt "Count your units to find out how strong the ability is!" was a shoddy mechanic.

RevlidRas wrote:
Canticles are like if Marines had an extra Chapter Tactic they needed to swap out each turn. Because... bionics.

*shrug* Why it can't be just representation that while AM technology is powerful, a lot of the time it just doesn't want to cooperate and while Magos can try to initiate certain effect, keeping it around for longer is a different matter?

Or just pretend it's manifestation of Machine Spirits or something, which is why it's random - because no one knows what the deal with those is or what to do with them, really...

 Kanluwen wrote:
There is nothing that is close to Canticles outside of the Tau's Mont'ka/Kauyon stuff.

The fact you keep arguing against people explaining their reasoning of things is tiresome. There is no right or wrong answer beyond "Because someone decided to do it this way". We will likely never have a solid answer as to why they did it the way they did beyond "They wanted to roll two codices into one" and they likely felt "Count your units to find out how strong the ability is!" was a shoddy mechanic.

Fair enough. I'm not really trying to argue "against" anyone, but if the answer to the question "am I missing something" is "no", then that's that.

I get what you are saying and agree. While any bonus is good, the mechanic feels odd when only a couple are most always useful and some are pretty much useless.

The canticles would feel a lot better if they had some focus so they didn't sometimes feel like complete dead drops