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So, I have been writing an RPG system, initially set in a sci-fi universe(has moved a bit to a more generic system, but initial release will be sci-fi) and it uses D20 for all tests with a pre-assigned Target number with degrees of success/failure based on rolls with modifiers adding bonuses/penalties.

For the armor system I decided against armor affecting requirements to hit(like d&d), and instead reducing damage taken by thr value of the armor. So if you are wearing an arnor that has a value of 10, and take 11 points of damage from a single attack; then your character only takes 1 point of damage. But then I also wanted said penetrated armor to be slighly less effective(after all, it now has a hole in it), so the solution I came up with:

Any penetrating hit(damage done to the character, through the armor) degrades the armor in that location by 1 point(in our example above, it now has a value of 9). But, the higher tiers of armor would become effectively immune to small arms fire. So, I decided to also add that armor can also take damage from non-penetrating hits (for example, our armor value 10 takes 8 damage from a single hit, which does nothing to the character, then takes 6 more from a second hit; it now has an AV of 9) after an aggregate amount of damage equal or greater than its current AV.

While this adds somewhat to table-top accounting, I have simplified it down from my original Ideas.

Thoughts?

So would I be right in saying that you want to add up all the hits the armour takes and then reduce it by 1 each time it adds up to the armours value?

EG:
AV10
10 damage = AV9
19 damage = AV8
27 damage = AV7
34 damage = AV6
40 damage = AV5
45 damage = AV4
49 damage = AV3
52 damage = AV2
54 damage = AV1
55 damage = AV0, armour is gone

How are you keeping track of the RPG elements of the game? If you have a datasheet for each model, you could have a table up the long edge on which you tick each row as your armour absorbs damage (EG take a S3 hit, tick off 3 rows) and the last unticked row shows you your current armour value. If you don't number the damage column, you can have it up to the maximum armour value, and just start at whatever armour your guy has.

Alternatively you could track it with the table I've attached below (took me hours to make it for you )

The old cyberpunk (and i'm sure a lot of other games) had this.

It's a lot of paperwork so the big question is whether that aspect of it is suitable for your style of game. Something that runs fast and loose with quick and frequent combats would do better with armour ignoring criticals or similar while slower paced / more in-detail games like cyberpunk have the paperwork as part of the appeal.


(as an aside, there was a dnd variant rule where you used half of your armour for the to-hit, and the other half for damage reduction)

Simpler solution? Maybe not super simple but abit fallout 3.

Give armour a set durability, it can be repaired, it can be reinforced. Or enchanted etc to change these stats. Lighter, heavier, rifnroced, padded to better absorb blunt force or chain mail vs cutting etc. Say harderended facings vs pericing attacks.

Any hit over its strength that does damage takes one durability off.

Any hit above a certain threshold of its own armour rating does extra.

A deflection does damage if more that half its base armour value perhaps.

Then it is somthing youl have to watch. If you upgrade armour etc perhaps a roll on say a whatever plus to decide if its damaged. Maybe a bonus for reinforcing, but you add weight.

Light. Heavy and medium armour have different base chance to ignore the damage, light pretty low and heavy maybe half the timw if it'd expensive and rare in comparison.

Maybe when your armour goes below a certain level it say is 20% or such less effective and thus armour can be degraded, and losses effectiveness.

Thus a heavy penetrating hit could do 2-3 damage to armour value of durability or more.

The stronger thr armour in general more durable it is, heavy steel plate will take alot more than leather or say a coat of plates.

...

So in game.
You have
One armour durability that can be effected by modifiers. If you add certain ones it might be lighter, or better able to ignore damage, stronger vs different types.
When hit, depending on value it loses anything from 0-muktiple damage.
If lucky, you can ignore so much of that depending on weight and modifiers.
If not you just chalk your armour down x durability points and that's that.

And done.
Work put thr hp loss, and wounds nd move on.
Of your armour hits a certain damage level you just use a Lower stat line at the end of the turn.

My initial reaction was that it was too complicated, but the table proposed by some bloke above makes it pretty easy to keep track of and I like the idea of having to maintain ones equipment.

And to repair, simply rub off X ticks, depending on how good you are at repairing. Makes it easy to keep a little armour, and harder to keep heavier armour. if it was as basic as roll a D20 and rub off that many ticks - this would get AV1 up to AV6 on a perfect roll. less effective at fixing AV8 though.

It’s been mentioned, but how deep into simulation mode does your game go? While abstraction can break immersion, minutiae can be breaking to have to stop for 5 seconds every roll to modify your equipment.

I generally find upkeep mechanics to be irritating. Sure, there’s an added degree or realism. But there’s also the bizarre situation where you need to scrounge every single piece of garbage you can find (up yours, Fallout 4!) so you can create / maintain your equipment. I find that to just be a waste of time.

In my mind, degrading equipment is an “artificial” way to limit usefulness. Guns, for example, can be limited in use by scarcity of ammo. What would the point be, if one or two points of armour? It gets blown away in 2 hits. 6 points of armour? Potentially poor protection for a couple hits, practically worthless for 2 more, and useless for the rest.

20 points of armour? Nothing can hurt you. But the guy with no armour gets wasted in a single hit. Damage reduction is a tricky mechanic to manage, even without the degrading feature.

Did not expect this to blow up.

I am at work now, but will be reading through the comments and address everything tonight when I get home.

Few quick skimmed points:
Some bloke: sort of, and I like your quick diagram. Hadn't gotten nearly to charactersheet design yet, still solidifying the rules themselves.
Jhe90: yes, repairing is a part of the skills.
Greatbigtree: trying to balance abstract and simulation: skills are still very abstract, as is measurements.

And to all: I will go into better detail; the post was just a quick "what do you feel about the concept": answer seems to be a desire for the content and mechanics.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok I am home.

There is no tabletop wargaming aspect, straight role-playing.

The underlying concept and mechanics for the armors is a "class" system. Class I is a crash/survival suit and the basis of the next 2 classes. Class II and III are both combat armors, light and heavy respectively, which could be likened to 40k cadian flak armor for class II, and a bulkier version with more protective plates for Class III. Class IV is a complete high-tech plate suit with environmental protections.

So Class I has 5 armor points, and taking a hit that deals 6 damage penetrates the armor, dealing 1 point the wearer while degradi g the armor by 1 to 4 points(character sheets will likely have open boxes for accounting in the damage to the armor, marking off when fully degraded. So taking the same class I armor, you would start with 5 open boxes; if you take a hit for 3 damage, you write "3" in the last box. Then taking another hit for 3, your armor still protected you, but is now degraded to 4 boxes(filling in the 5th box), and a hit for 5 will now damage your character for 1 point(and mark off the 4th box).

Yes, you can repair armor (or have it repaired) outside of combat situations, provided you have the requisite skills (or can find someone who does).

Combat is mostly meant to be avoided, and is brutal and short (read deadly); there are a bevy of modifiers for ranged combat as I started backwards from a person in a firing range with basic training in the weapon being able to hit the target in general on a 5 or higher on a d20. Actual combat situations, and combat stress means that the same shooter is likely to only hit 50% of the time(11 or higher on a d20); before even getting into longer ranges, cover, and further movement.

I also have 3 combat scales: personal, vehicular, and capitol. Personal scale is most small arms fire, and blades. Vehicular scale is 10x the amount of damage and capacity as personal scale (lightest class of vehicular armor is 50 personal scale), so most Vehicular scale weapons will penetrate and kill most personal scale armored individuals(there is a light and heavy powered armor that can withstand some vehicular scale hits). Capitol scale armor would be for very large spacecraft, like fighter-carriers and frigates/destroyers, capitol scale armor is completely impervious to personal scale weapons.

The game does not feature any sort of "level" system, instead your characters increase in capability organically by earning and spending XP to increase skills or abilities; with a timeline attached for those increases. The other way to get better in game is money, all equipment is presented as a base-line generic version, with some increased or decreased costs for lower or better quality, or features inherent in a brand.

I have been mulling this over all day at work.

Here is my suggested mechanics.

If your damage is variable (or even if they are not) in that you roll a d6 to see how much damage you do then you should make your armor variable as well (in that you roll to see how much is soaked). Some armor will be more than just a die. See bellow.

So padded armor is a d4.
Leather a d6.
Chain might be d6+1
Ringmail a d8
Splint/brigandine a d10
up to full plate being a d12+4

(all values obviously adjusted to suit your damage mechanics - whatever they are).

If you roll a natural 1 on your armor roll you degrade it to the next lower dice. So, full plate. roll 1d12, get a 1, you soak 5 damage but it's degraded to a d10+4. When they degrade bellow d4 they are effectively ruined and non-functional/falling off your body.

Tougher armors are less likely to degrade then weaker armors. You don't have to do book keeping for it on every hit. And if the armor is patched/repaired it can adjust cost/time and even receive partial repairs restoring some of the functionality but not all of it.

Might do something like that for other settings, or armors planet-side.

First setting is space-based with a very real threat of decompression or incompatible atmospheres, so fully encased armor is a need for characters; but non-enclosed armors have this idea make sense to.

Your original idea was exactly how armor worked in CP2020 (the Interlock system).

Really, it's more a matter of perspective rather than game design. In your setting, is possible that an armor dies for a thousand cuts?

From what you said, I think degradation should ONLY occur when a damage pass the resistance. So, yes, you can be functionally immune to small arms... but that shouldn't be a issue for an RPG.
And there is another reason: in space, you're under a constant microscopic bombardment of small debris, microscopic interstellar dust and material going at crazy speed. I expect and a full exo-suit will be able to sustain almost indefinitely this kind of attrition.

But, if you prefer a a different approach, I suggest to forget the numeric value calculation and set it based on a more narrative approach.

So, for example, armor degrade as follows:

[] Any armor lose 1 point of protection for any game session
[] +1 when used in a combat scene
[] +1 when suffered an Armour Piercing attack
[] +2 when in ostile/acid/wearing environment

.... and so on. It require less bookkeeping, allows you to have interesting situation and give players the idea that they need to do maintenance whatever they do.

Yes to death from a thousand cuts. I also wanted to ensure that there would be no "critical existence failure".

Some of the models from RPGs I have played in the past were:

Up until 3rd edition D&D, armor of any kind couuld defend you from a touch attack, with immortal armor.

Palladium game systems had armor that gave a "roll over this value to penetrate, hitting under that value damages the armor without any other effect(and MDC armor just got damaged), and with the last hp(well sdc/mdc) of the armor gone; it simply ceased to exist.

WoD granted extra soak dice/health levels(been awhile).


I wanted a system that was a mix/cherry picked bits from all of these. Cover and structures would also work the same as armor: a few pistol/rifle shots at a cinder block wall won't usually pentrate it, but many(hundred or so) could reduce the blocks to dust, you could even cut down a tree with enough bullets and time. But, cover/structures taking damage have a slightly different take on damage and armor.

Also, yes getting into higher caliber rifles and machine guns would have Armor penetration values, for example a Desert Eagle pistol chambered in .45 or .50, would do enough damage per hit to go through Class I armor and do some damage to the character, but a .50BMG round will ignore the Class I armor altogether(degrading it in the process), and maybe even class II, to deal the full damage to the target(most likely killing or completely disabling a limb).

Generally speaking, I find systems work best when the amount of damage ignored because of armor is relatively low; like -3 tops and better armor generally just grants an HP bonus. In particular, I find this works well in games where players have VERY little natural HP, so that their HP is more represented by something breaking through their armor. Degrading armor can just be a combination of those ideas:

Steel Plate:
This grants 28 HP at with -3 resistance and 22 HP with -2 resistance.

Once 28 HP had been dealt, the resistance would drop for the remaining 22.

Well, my first advice is to not fall in the "creature of habit" trap. I mean, if you have more experience in three RPG specifically, usually is a BAD IDEA to try to create a system that is a mix of all of them.

I suggest that you find out more other RPG (there are countless free online in any language) to have a wider perspective. I don't think your goal is to force player to became accountant of any single bullet shot by a 1.200 round/s machinegun, right?

I also won't introduce a "hardness" and "HP" value for armor. IT needlessly increase complexity: you should keep this mechanics for Character (and Ships) only.

-----

Regardless: if you want to be possible to die from a thousand cut, you necessarily need to introduce some form of bookeeping (the example of the tree is enlightening).

The subsequent obvious step is to determine what is the "minimum size" of the damage you want to monitor.
Any damage? Any attack? Anything? It may seems a menial task, but consider that a pin breaking your suit can kill you in the void of space... it's not. This will give you a perspective of what is the smaller things player have to track (probably already here you can self-assess if this is coherent with what you have in mind).

In my opinion your only problem is to determine an easy way to allow player to keep track of the damage, and to avoid going overboard with this specific detail, unless (like in Dead Space) the armor is a fundamental and core part of the game.


Finally, if different weapons have different penetration value, I think you can (and should!) use this for to manage degradation in a easier way (i.e. any weapon that penetrate Class I armor degrade that), and you resolve the death of a thousand cut by a specific scenic effect like "Sustained Assault" or something similar: you can use a logarithmic scale or a magnitude to determine "how many" attack a lower grade bullet or external aggression need to destroy the armor.

For example:
-> 10 bullet of the same "size" degrade an armor. Any Class above or below increase x10 (or /10).
So, a Class 3 weapon against a Class 3 Armour requires (let's say) 15 bullet to degrade. Another armor may require 5, or 20, or 3, or whatever.

Then:
-> A Class 4 weapon against same target (3) require 1,5 bullet (2)
-> A Class 5 a single one (0,15 to be precise, so it can theoretically pass through 6 different armors).
-> A Class 2 require 150 hits
-> A Class 1 will take 1.500 instead.

An alternative is to tweak the way your armour works to make this bookkeeping integral instead of additional.

in the chart I've attached below (I still can't work out how to embed pictures in my post) the numbers are your HP, and the boxes are your armour. As you take hits, you tick boxes. Once a row of boxes is full, you drop to the next row down.

This means that your armour stops 5 damage before you take 1HP damage. Then it stops a further 4 before you take a second, 4 before a third, 3 before a fourth, and so on. By the time you have 1HP left, you have no armour - one hit will kill you.


So if you are at full health and take a S9 hit, you will tick 9 boxes and be dropped to 8HP. if you then take another S9 hit, you will tick 9 boxes and be dropped to 6HP. if you take 1 more hit, you will drop to 5HP, because there is only 1 box of armour left.

This would only be worth it if HP loss means anything more than how far from death you are - EG slowing you down, reducing morale or AP. If it's just how alive you are, and you function perfectly until death, it's effectively just a high amount of HP and no armour.

 some bloke wrote:
This means that your armour stops 5 damage before you take 1HP damage. Then it stops a further 4 before you take a second, 4 before a third, 3 before a fourth, and so on. By the time you have 1HP left, you have no armour - one hit will kill you.

A little similar to exalted, where health bands would have penalties applied to them (albeit to defense rather than armour in ex3).

Is it critical tot he feel of the game? If yes, then keep it and tweak it for ease of maintenance. If it is not, jettison the whole idea of armor degradation.

For example, if the space based game needs to have the idea that you are slowly wearing down and you will eventually break and die unless you do something about it, then mine this mechanic.

If it is juts heroic space opera, then ditch it as pointless.

I understand the idea, and the desire...but I do think the rule here would definitely be - simple and elegant as possible. I love me some crunch, but not when it comes to the middle of a gunfight...then it's immersion breaking.

So you have the base idea down...now keep mining it (as said above) if you think it's a valuable goal. Don't settle until you look at the mechanic and like it yourself. If you don't look at the mechanic yourself and think "oh that's clever, and simple"...don't do it. If you think something is too clunky or time consuming, your players will too.

Does your game have different types of damage? In an old RPG system I used to play it was different being shot in a protective vest vs. being slashed, hacked, or blown up with a grenade. Some of those would damage the armour itself, while others were just inflicting damage on the character (they had a logical and realistic system where you simply took bruise/impact damage when wearing a bullet proof vest...so you could soak fire but eventually your ribs and kidneys will be so pounded you're still out of the fight).

I thought the way The Banner Saga did degrading armour (and degrading attack power) was pretty clean and simple.
How about copying that?

 Elbows wrote:
In an old RPG system I used to play it was different being shot in a protective vest vs. being slashed, hacked, or blown up with a grenade. Some of those would damage the armour itself, while others were just inflicting damage on the character (they had a logical and realistic system where you simply took bruise/impact damage when wearing a bullet proof vest...so you could soak fire but eventually your ribs and kidneys will be so pounded you're still out of the fight).

Conspiracy X ? (stage damage up and down, two types of damage)