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Made in gb
Wicked Warp Spider






Hi Guys

So I had a thought thanks to another thread.
I suppose historical war games have been around for ages. For some reason I seem to envision some Victorian era lead some Napoleonic solidiers...

Does anyone know whats the oldest TT game is that we are aware aware of?

I define that to mean:
1. Uses miniatures to represent units
2. Has a battlefield & uses terrain for the game
3. the game itself simulates battle and has a rules system
4. Not a board game I.e. The board is pretty much the same each time (risk etc.).

Chess uses a grid so would not classify as a TT war game, although highly strategic and arguably still the most masterful game to learn so gotta give props to chess! Still have never beat my dad in 30 years although we have reached a stalemate many times...
I like the feel of historicals, I think they are more about the spectacle then the game itself. But being 30 I can see how I would love to get into hail ceasar one day but not just yet.

Please post some pictures and examples if possible.
Looking forward to learning about some cool history and Hopefully see some miniatures!

Peace!

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
 
   
Made in nz
[MOD]
Villanous Scum






Oldest I know of (outside of actual military wargames) is Little Wars 1913;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Wars

On parle toujours mal quand on n'a rien à dire.
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Backfire wrote:
Nobody kills his dad and participates in genocide just for cosplay.
 
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Wars

I'm not sure whether there's an older published wargame or not.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Lit By the Flames of Prospero





land of 10k taxes

Go!
   
Made in fr
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler




Please leave my town.

Nah, Go has a fixed board, so doesn't count for the OP's purposes.

The first game that fits the OP's criteria was probably 'Hellwig's Wargame', invented in 1780 in Prussia. It had a gridded 'board', but it was not fixed from game to game. You filled in the 'terrain' (using symbols and colour codes) on the grid before each game, so each battlefield layout could be unique.

During the Napoleonic Wars, George Leopold von Reisswitz (another Prussian!) was the first to throw out the grid and allow free-form movement over the tabletop, and his son Georg Heinrich completed the development of the game in 1824 (including the invention of the concept of hitpoints). His Kriegsspiel is the ancestor of all modern tabletop wargames.

"Everyone in 40K is wrong." - ADB

Wishing for other people's armies/factions to be squatted should be a bannable offence. 
   
Made in cn
Unshakeable Grey Knight Land Raider Pilot




Wikipedia has a nice write up on the early history of TT wargaming.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabletop_wargame

Is that where you found your info Duskweaver?

The early German wargames didn't use mini's to represent soldiers though, just blocks or figurines like in Chess it appears. Only about 100 years later did people record themselves playing with toy soldiers to represent armies, so this would be the first instances on a 'Miniature' TT game, as per OP's criteria.

The first published wargame using mini's was Jane's Naval Wargame in 1898, according to the article. Used ships made of 'cork and wires'.
   
Made in gb
Wicked Warp Spider






Spoiler:
The_Real_Chris wrote:
 Argive wrote:
Interesting. I suppose historical war games have been around for ages.

Does anyone know whats the oldest TT game is that we are aware aware of?
I define that to mean: Uses miniatures to represent units, and has a battlefield board the game simulates battle.


Would you believe it is still played today...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kriegsspiel

The discerning Victorian, for whom it was something of a craze at one point and played int he drawing rooms of the wealthy as part of a social occasion, would use lead figures for units. Some military units did as well but most used wooden blocks.

In terms of wargaming a battle it was used in various forms as part of military planning for some time, but as a narrative way. Kriegsspiel was I think the first to regularise random chance being a guiding factor for some battlefield situations.

In terms of a common mans hobby that came along in the 20th century with the first recognised publication being https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Wars - Little Wars: a game for boys from twelve years of age to one hundred and fifty and for that more intelligent sort of girl who likes boys' games and books by H. G. Wells.

It spread and become more common and for a look at how the media viewed it check out this Pathe reel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stbxQxGz1UM

Also http://vintagewargaming.blogspot.com/2012/04/while-idly-browsing-british-pathe.html

And for a general overview of hobbies...
https://www.britishpathe.com/video/men-will-be-boys


BaconCatBug wrote:
 Argive wrote:
Interesting. I suppose historical war games have been around for ages.

Does anyone know whats the oldest TT game is that we are aware aware of?
I define that to mean: Uses miniatures to represent units, and has a battlefield board the game simulates battle.
The oldest (published) one I could find with a quick search is "Rules for the Jane Naval Wargame" published 1898.

https://thomo.coldie.net/wargames/naval-wargame-rules/rules-for-the-jane-naval-wargame/

However, much as J.R.R Tolkien didn't invent the fantasy genre but helped re-popularise and define it, it was the English writer H. G. Wells and his 1913 game "Little Wars: a game for boys from twelve years of age to one hundred and fifty and for that more intelligent sort of girl who likes boys' games and books" (imagine releasing that book today, yikes!) that is considered the modern precursor of miniature tabletop wargaming.

http://archive.spectator.co.uk/article/16th-august-1913/24/little-wars-by-h-g-wells-frank-palmer-2s-6d

Edit: Dang it Bobby I was too slow.


Interesting informations & posts from another thread.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




South New Jersey



Always loved the idea of a bunch of grown men sitting and kneeling on the floor in suits and ties.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/27 15:53:19


   
Made in gb
Wicked Warp Spider






haha love it. I was hoping there is an old school obscure game fromt the roman times tbh

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
 
   
Made in gb
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan





Bristol, England

Look at the use of sand tables in military planning.
These date back to Greek and Roman times.
The Romans also played with dice so it's not unlikely the two ever came together, at least once.

Many historical wargames don't work on chance like lots of the games that we currently play. Rather they work on a unit strength system when unit A will beat unit B every single time on open ground.

The earliest of these strategy planning sessions/simulations or games could be as old as some cavemen drawing up a battle plan in some sand whilst hunting mammoth.

Oli: Can I be an orc?
Everyone: No.
Oli: But it fits through the doors, Look! 
   
Made in fr
Longtime Dakkanaut




In Paris, there's a shop called "Au plat d'Étain", that has been opened since 1775.
A "plat d'étain" (literally a tin flat, Zinnfigur in German, which I think is where it comes from) is a "2D" version of a miniature:


According to the shop, lead soldiers were only created mid-19th century, so any wargame pre-dating that would have been played with tokens or "plat d'étain".
   
 
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