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To clarify, I'm not talking about the Skulls and Eagles, Gothic here. What I'm referring to here is this - times have changed. The most recent extremity of 40ks setting now features somewhat of a revival of hope and technology for the Imperium, albeit on a small scale, just as it has brought it's most dire of challenges in 10,000 years. Love it or hate it, Cawl's Primaris have open a metaphoric floodgate for the Imperium - that innovation and new technology can be done. Now while I'm under no illusion that this would spread to the Imperium at large, I don't feel that any Imperial Commander would deny the products of such innovation (Although, naturally, I suspect the Mechanicus would kick up a fuss).

This being the case then, do you, the community, feel that it's time that the Imperial Guard, not just the Primaris, get a more updated look?

For my own opinion, while I am fond of certain designs, the faux WW1 vehicle designs chafe against my tastes (Which I appreciate is subjective). I understand they were originally intended to look backward, and reflect the technological regression, but I feel that is a theme GW has long since dispensed with. These days, vehicles and tech are no longer really portrayed in the fluff as make-do-an-mend solutions - but as actual effective fighting machines. However, their designs haven't changed and have a whole host of flaws that would hinder their function (and I mean basic mechanical problems - accepting the suspension of disbelief for multi-fuel engines and miniaturised power-plants). Personally speaking, I'd like to see a shift towards more logical and modern designs (albeit keeping the decorative aesthetic) - with lower profiles, armaments grouped in the turret and a suspension/track layout that looks as though it could cope with the hellish and varied Battlefields of 40k. These aspects, at least to my pedantic mind, are crucial in retaining that sense of grounding that allows me to suspend my disbelief in other more fantastical areas.

So, what are your thoughts, and if anyone has any conversions, designs or similar - feel free to share (provided you credit where credit is due).

Nope. And GW needs to stop destroying their setting by giving the Imperium hope and progress and pragmatic designs.

Fair comment - but I'm not sure that pragmatic designs translate into a destruction of the setting. Both the Tau and the Necrons have very advanced designs (Theoretically) - but they aren't winning anymore than the Imperium... And hope, I would say, is kind of essential for keeping people invested. Surely there has to be a hope that your faction could prevail in your mind's eye - even if we never want to see it actually realised, because that would mean a literal ending to the setting?

No. The World War/pre-modern military-in-space aesthetic is one of the Imperial Guard's unique selling points in a world packed to the brim with sci-fi settings starring Modern Tacticool Shootmans.

The "advanced" Space Marine gear is acceptable only because it doesn't fully depart from the "knights in space" aesthetic that makes the Adeptus Astartes what they are. They're sleeker and sexier, sure, but at the end of the day if you made Bretonnia a faction in Mass Effect you'd still end up with something that looked like Primaris Space Marines.

I don't LIKE the proliferation of hovertech, but that's not because it's "not Space Marine-y", it's because it infringes on the feeling of advanced technology that was previously unique to Tau, Eldar, and Necrons, plus special ancient relics held by the Dark Angels. It's a fine addition to the Space Marine line, it just makes other things less special.

100% Yes. Boring and stale. They need re-doing, but don't need to be hyper-tech.

 Warpig1815 wrote:
Fair comment - but I'm not sure that pragmatic designs translate into a destruction of the setting. Both the Tau and the Necrons have very advanced designs (Theoretically) - but they aren't winning anymore than the Imperium... And hope, I would say, is kind of essential for keeping people invested. Surely there has to be a hope that your faction could prevail in your mind's eye - even if we never want to see it actually realised, because that would mean a literal ending to the setting?

But the Tau and Necrons are not the Imperium. The whole point of the Imperium is that it is backwards and irrational and is WWI in space because space Jesus said so. And the fact that it can't succeed is a fundamental principle of the setting. The Imperium can only delay its inevitable death, and you have to ask whether this delay is worth all of the atrocities the Imperium commits to stay alive just a bit longer. For the Imperium to succeed, or even have legitimate hope of victory, is to destroy the core identity of the faction and ruin the 40k fluff.

It is a big galaxy and the setting has shown that Imperial Guard from different worlds can range from looking like anything pretty much black powder era and up. At the same time, I don't see it the risk/effort to profit being enough for Games Workshop to readily invest in even bringing back full IG subfactions in plastic any time soon. I personally have no issue to IG players using different models lines for their guard as it completely fits the fluff, and I don't play in a GW store to have to worry about their rules. It is a little more work, but I generally think that is the best route moving away from the Citadel models range.

The current Cadian aesthetic is acceptable still when it comes to infantry and the WWI inspired armor is also pretty ingrained for the faction as a whole. I think there is something to be said attempting to update to a more modern design appearance that it will look less 'very-much 40k' and timeless and risks being generically sci-fi and not at all as readily identifiable as 40k.

I imagine that at some point GW will update the IG line as it seems they are changing from 'heroic' proportions to something a little more realistic. Especially since I think IG is hit the hardest from this change as regular human guardsmen start to look really oddly proportioned compared to Primaris, Skitarri and the new Sisters of Battle already. I don't see that happening for a couple of years unfortunately. There are far too many factions that have a surprising amount of resin units that really should be in plastic as this point that I think should be ahead in the cue.

RevlidRas wrote:

I don't LIKE the proliferation of hovertech, but that's not because it's "not Space Marine-y", it's because it infringes on the feeling of advanced technology that was previously unique to Tau, Eldar, and Necrons, plus special ancient relics held by the Dark Angels. It's a fine addition to the Space Marine line, it just makes other things less special.

I am less bothered my the apparent tech level of Primaris tanks since space marines had speeders and their flyers don't look like they could stay aloft but thrusters alone. However, I think that tracked vehicles would fit the space marine brutish and brutal aesthetic more than hover tanks. Sure the fluff describes the grav plates of the repulsor still crushing the ground beneath but that doesn't really transfer to the model without some clever basing. That is not say I don't agree at least a little bit. I think there is something to be said that if IG is WWI then space marines are kinda WWII to Vietnam kind of in addition to knights in space.

Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.

I'm not really a fan of the technological progression really. I had hopes that they were going to balance the introduction of this new technology with a massive backlash from the established order. Imagine if the Ecclesiarch had declared Guilliman a heretic upon his return. You would have the Imperium ripped apart in a massive civil war, it would have been great. However, everything just became a bit too much "we are the good guys, mostly" for me. I like my horribly backward decaying space empire.

No. The aesthetic is absolutely fine. What they desperately need tho is new multi Regiment soldier Kits. I'm so tired of cadians. Catachans are old and awful and everything else is so unaffordable that it may as well not exist.

I have never ever seen a vostroyan, valhallan, mordian or tallarn army.

They don’t need a new aesthetic though the kits could do with an update. As aesthetics have gone Cadians and even Catachans(to a degree) have held up well. Though giving them a normal looking wheeled vehicle like the genestealer cults wouldn’t go a miss though.

The beauty of the IG is that they just need to add another regiment and keep the old ones and it’s all viable in the fluff. But we need the old metal regiments replacing first.

Nope. Like others, I think the Guards vehicle aesthetic is just fine. And I hope that GW never listens to pleas about changing it.

I'd love a new aesthetic for guard. I think the rogue trader guard would be a great option.

The other thing I wish is that they'd made the necromunda kits with using them as guardsmen in mind. Its a huge wasted opportunity in my book that they don't come with 10 lasguns.

I don't think the guard need new vehicles, their vehicles are fine as as iconic to the setting as a space Marine. (I'd not mind a new pattern of the Lemen Russ that took the basic shape make it a liiitle sleeker and changed the weapons up a bit, but I don't think it's needed) what I think the guard needs and any post Gulliman era reforms should proably focus on is basic infantry kit. and this would mostly be to get rid of the mish mash of infantry looks and styles that honestly is a product of a bygone era

I'm not even a Guard player, but I would consider it heavily. What they need is (in my opinion):

A refreshed Cadian style "basic fatigues" line including a normal squad, heavy weapon squad and command squad. Include in these boxes a couple of female heads to see progressive, and at least two, maybe three different sets of head-gear. A kit where you can more or less make two or three quasi-regiments, even if they're not aligned to the famous ones.

However, alongside this three-kit line...you do a second one. This set would be great-coat models - again with another 2-3 head options. It'd only end up being six boxes (well within GW's production skills and abilities).

Bonus points: include tank commanders in the command squad box for each one (one or two tank commander bodies with specific tank commander heads).

This would give you a lot more variety (particularly from people kit-bashing between the two lines). It's not many kits, would give you a more diverse selection of guard in plastic, easy to do, etc. Oh, and while we're at it, consider a new plastic Rough Rider kit because they should have never gone away.

 Elbows wrote:
I'm not even a Guard player, but I would consider it heavily. What they need is (in my opinion):

A refreshed Cadian style "basic fatigues" line including a normal squad, heavy weapon squad and command squad. Include in these boxes a couple of female heads to see progressive, and at least two, maybe three different sets of head-gear. A kit where you can more or less make two or three quasi-regiments, even if they're not aligned to the famous ones.

However, alongside this three-kit line...you do a second one. This set would be great-coat models - again with another 2-3 head options. It'd only end up being six boxes (well within GW's production skills and abilities).

Bonus points: include tank commanders in the command squad box for each one (one or two tank commander bodies with specific tank commander heads).

This would give you a lot more variety (particularly from people kit-bashing between the two lines). It's not many kits, would give you a more diverse selection of guard in plastic, easy to do, etc. Oh, and while we're at it, consider a new plastic Rough Rider kit because they should have never gone away.

Greatcoats would be (no pun intended) great--as it would be a welcome addition for people who wanted to do winter/snowy/icy basing and terrain in particular!

But I'd also really like to see a refresh on jungle/Catachan or desert/Tallarn looking guys, too!

No, just fairly costed models.

 Warpig1815 wrote:
To clarify, I'm not talking about the Skulls and Eagles, Gothic here. What I'm referring to here is this - times have changed. The most recent extremity of 40ks setting now features somewhat of a revival of hope and technology for the Imperium, albeit on a small scale, just as it has brought it's most dire of challenges in 10,000 years. Love it or hate it, Cawl's Primaris have open a metaphoric floodgate for the Imperium - that innovation and new technology can be done. Now while I'm under no illusion that this would spread to the Imperium at large, I don't feel that any Imperial Commander would deny the products of such innovation (Although, naturally, I suspect the Mechanicus would kick up a fuss).

This being the case then, do you, the community, feel that it's time that the Imperial Guard, not just the Primaris, get a more updated look?

For my own opinion, while I am fond of certain designs, the faux WW1 vehicle designs chafe against my tastes (Which I appreciate is subjective). I understand they were originally intended to look backward, and reflect the technological regression, but I feel that is a theme GW has long since dispensed with. These days, vehicles and tech are no longer really portrayed in the fluff as make-do-an-mend solutions - but as actual effective fighting machines. However, their designs haven't changed and have a whole host of flaws that would hinder their function (and I mean basic mechanical problems - accepting the suspension of disbelief for multi-fuel engines and miniaturised power-plants). Personally speaking, I'd like to see a shift towards more logical and modern designs (albeit keeping the decorative aesthetic) - with lower profiles, armaments grouped in the turret and a suspension/track layout that looks as though it could cope with the hellish and varied Battlefields of 40k. These aspects, at least to my pedantic mind, are crucial in retaining that sense of grounding that allows me to suspend my disbelief in other more fantastical areas.

So, what are your thoughts, and if anyone has any conversions, designs or similar - feel free to share (provided you credit where credit is due).

Bear in mind Cawl's work took some part of 10,000 years and his improvements are marginal to cosmetic. A little more range, and/or just a different housing/bit for the same plasma based rifle type weapon. Any given Guardsman may not serve long enough to make improving their baseline equipment worthwhile - If they get new stuff that needs new training, they could be discharged by the time they learn it all.

Power Armor isn't new, nor is custom fitting it to larger marines. I was going to point out Mark VIII power armor, but then wondered whatever happened to Mark IX? Bolt Storm Gauntlets aren't really new. Calgar has two, Kantor has one, GK And BA have hand/wrist mounted firearms all over. Camo Cloaks, special ammunition, sniper rifles, jump packs, and projectile/plasma/laser based weaponry isn't new, The only base technology Primaris introduced that wasn't limited to one special character is anti-grav - the chutes and the tanks. The rest is something they already had just changed in scale to some greater or lesser extent.

Cawl refined plasma to a greater degree but I think we're more likely to see the admech benifit from that then the Guard. beyond that the biggest innovation of Cawl's was the Mk X armor, which seems to have an unprecidented degree of modualirty. this BTW has some big advantages strategicly but has minimal impact tactically. IMHO the most likely change to the guard would simply be standardization. which I could see happening, but more for GW wanting to finally remove the "every guard regiment looks differant" aspect and it'd honestlly likely not be a popular move with the customer base

Yea I agree I think IG a starting to look very out of place against modern updated armies on a 40k table.

I don't think they should be made more futuristic or techy though. If anything, the opposite, the machinery should be bulkier, heavier, ineffecient, boxy.

The opposite of space marines that are sleek.

BrianDavion wrote:
Cawl refined plasma to a greater degree but I think we're more likely to see the admech benifit from that then the Guard. beyond that the biggest innovation of Cawl's was the Mk X armor, which seems to have an unprecidented degree of modualirty. this BTW has some big advantages strategicly but has minimal impact tactically. IMHO the most likely change to the guard would simply be standardization. which I could see happening, but more for GW wanting to finally remove the "every guard regiment looks differant" aspect and it'd honestlly likely not be a popular move with the customer base

And they took first aim, ironically, at the one most generic looking, the Cadians. They had far more generic soldier look to them than any of the historically inspired greatcoats and WWI gas masks. I'm not entirely sold on the idea they want to go to one model line for guard. They may try and shift more towards the Space Marine model, and do most of the visual differences in racial/cultural heads using hair/beards/skin color paint jobs to bring codex artwork to mind like with the White Scars and Chinese/Mongol/Steppes references but I also think the regiment specific looks stick around as the Regimental Veterans or something - similar to a Darkshroud, Sanguinary Guard, or Bjorn. Something to jump out of the shared unit clutter as unique and identifiable.

Martel732 wrote:
No, just fairly costed models.

By GW standards, 10 Cadians or Catachans for £18 isn't terrible - as long as you forget the box originally contained twice as many models for about the same price (I seem to recall 20 for £15 at release, but I could be wrong on that).

I don't mind the IG vehicle aesthetics but I really wish they'd use a different regiment for the actual men.

The Cadians just look so boring and uninspired.

Could we not have Vostroyans or Armageddon instead?

Peregrine wrote:

 Warpig1815 wrote:
Fair comment - but I'm not sure that pragmatic designs translate into a destruction of the setting. Both the Tau and the Necrons have very advanced designs (Theoretically) - but they aren't winning anymore than the Imperium... And hope, I would say, is kind of essential for keeping people invested. Surely there has to be a hope that your faction could prevail in your mind's eye - even if we never want to see it actually realised, because that would mean a literal ending to the setting?

But the Tau and Necrons are not the Imperium. The whole point of the Imperium is that it is backwards and irrational and is WWI in space because space Jesus said so. And the fact that it can't succeed is a fundamental principle of the setting. The Imperium can only delay its inevitable death, and you have to ask whether this delay is worth all of the atrocities the Imperium commits to stay alive just a bit longer. For the Imperium to succeed, or even have legitimate hope of victory, is to destroy the core identity of the faction and ruin the 40k fluff.

Also a fair comment. I'd still debate that hope, of the citizens and the command, is the driving force behind the delay, but I think we may veer OT in pursuing that discussion.

RevlidRas wrote:No. The World War/pre-modern military-in-space aesthetic is one of the Imperial Guard's unique selling points in a world packed to the brim with sci-fi settings starring Modern Tacticool Shootmans.

The "advanced" Space Marine gear is acceptable only because it doesn't fully depart from the "knights in space" aesthetic that makes the Adeptus Astartes what they are. They're sleeker and sexier, sure, but at the end of the day if you made Bretonnia a faction in Mass Effect you'd still end up with something that looked like Primaris Space Marines.

I don't LIKE the proliferation of hovertech, but that's not because it's "not Space Marine-y", it's because it infringes on the feeling of advanced technology that was previously unique to Tau, Eldar, and Necrons, plus special ancient relics held by the Dark Angels. It's a fine addition to the Space Marine line, it just makes other things less special.

Aye, perhaps I should have noted that while I'm a supporter of the designs being changed, or new ones introduced - I'm not advocating a 21st Century theme. In my minds eye, I'm thinking more of a transition from WW1 styled tanks to WW2. The design choices are markedly different, but the decorative aesthetic is broadly similar. And naturally, I accept that Astartes are always going to have to be a cut above - that's their thing. I'm not advocating putting the IG on the same level. Perhaps I was wrong to use the word 'technology' - what I'm really looking for, in my own opinion, is an update to the design choices. Also - yep, not a fan at all of hover-tech, it does 'feel' more alien.

Elbows wrote:100% Yes. Boring and stale. They need re-doing, but don't need to be hyper-tech.

In a nutshell - my feelings exactly. Considering the work certain 3rd Party manufacturers have produced, it's not impossible to create logical designs, with the same grimdark aesthetic that appeals to 40k fans

I say make new IG stuff even more archaic. Kettle helmets, mail armor, toops armed with swords and shield.

Demonstrate the apparent doom and gloom created by the Great Rifts creation and the ruckus that followed, many many planets were apparently lost. That must have disrupted Imperiums ability to make and distribute armaments, yet that ain't seen in the game itself.

Only thing that has happened is that the Marines got even shinier toys. No drawbacks. No shortages, no communication difficulties, no need to rely on local production, no increased fear and superstition in the masses as the galaxy get more dangerous for them. No decay. Just the mighty Spess Mahreens getting even mightier.

Aint there even some lore about how killing daemons is easier with melee weapons. Since GW seems to be pushing Chaos as the Big Bad having IG use weapons that get the job done against them easier also makes sense.

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:
I say make new IG stuff even more archaic. Kettle helmets, mail armor, toops armed with swords and shield.

Demonstrate the apparent doom and gloom created by the Great Rifts creation and the ruckus that followed, many many planets were apparently lost. That must have disrupted Imperiums ability to make and distribute armaments, yet that ain't seen in the game itself.

Only thing that has happened is that the Marines got even shinier toys. No drawbacks. No shortages, no communication difficulties, no need to rely on local production, no increased fear and superstition in the masses as the galaxy get more dangerous for them. No decay. Just the mighty Spess Mahreens getting even mightier.

Aint there even some lore about how killing daemons is easier with melee weapons. Since GW seems to be pushing Chaos as the Big Bad having IG use weapons that get the job done against them easier also makes sense.

No..

If any esththic of the basic human with chains and melee weapons should be out there then tbh that would be the BSF traitor guard and it's eventual propper list.

Frankly a Redone line of Cadians, Catachans and either Vostroyans or steel legion would massively improve it.
The best solution imo is basically what anvil enables you to do with their plattons allowing you to mix and match in their regiments line.

 Warpig1815 wrote:
Personally speaking, I'd like to see a shift towards more logical and modern designs

Have you seen some of the more recent tank designs? They are making 'em XBOXHUEG now. Just look at the T-14, it almost has the same front profile as a Leman Russ:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Warpig1815 wrote:
Fair comment - but I'm not sure that pragmatic designs translate into a destruction of the setting. Both the Tau and the Necrons have very advanced designs (Theoretically) - but they aren't winning anymore than the Imperium... And hope, I would say, is kind of essential for keeping people invested. Surely there has to be a hope that your faction could prevail in your mind's eye - even if we never want to see it actually realised, because that would mean a literal ending to the setting?

But the Tau and Necrons are not the Imperium. The whole point of the Imperium is that it is backwards and irrational and is WWI in space because space Jesus said so. And the fact that it can't succeed is a fundamental principle of the setting. The Imperium can only delay its inevitable death, and you have to ask whether this delay is worth all of the atrocities the Imperium commits to stay alive just a bit longer. For the Imperium to succeed, or even have legitimate hope of victory, is to destroy the core identity of the faction and ruin the 40k fluff.

Or, conversely, a setting where there's no hope of things getting better and everything is a pointless slog to inevitable doom is really really fething boring after a while.

The initial nihilism is fun at first, but then you graduate highschool and you realize that 'everything is sad forever, feth you, also the good guys use babies for skeet shooting practice' isn't really all that compelling.

With no hope at all, there's no point. It's honestly why I can't stand the majority of 40k books. I just spend the entire thing thinking 'yeah but like...so what?'.

Personally I think they should straight up pitch the imperium as the main characters of the setting and focus more on Tau. Yeah, they're evil a-holes too but in like a normal way and not the imperiums 'immolate millions of people in a volcano for funsies' way.

If you move away from just the nominal IG range there are several other options as as well. The necromunda range provides a way to mix things up a bit more. Van saar are the hyper tech option. Cawdor for the medieval peasant force and the new Goliaths actually look pretty good.

Add in the options of IGing genestealer cult human troops and humanising a bit more the Skitarii and you can cover a lot of bases. If you want the ultra medieval route then there is the classic route of arming warhammer models with guns.

The best option would be for GW to take a leaf out of Anvil's book and do different sprue sets for bodies, weapons, heads l and arms and allow mixing and matching to form forces. But there is no incentive to do that as people are happy to buy multiple kits from GW to do exactly the same thing for more money (me included)

Yes, they need a redesign, but no, it shouldn't be high-tech. The imperial guard, per the fluff, are not most well equipped force in the Imperium. Their equipment is more focused towards logistics, not effectiveness. They are supposed to look "backwards" in order to reinforce the idea that they are expendable cannon fodder.

What GW really needs is to move away from Cadians being the "standard" IG. In the past that sort of regiment focused idea worked as you had other regiments to choose from, but right now you only have Cadians and Catachans, so it breaks down.

Plastic Elysian-style dudesmen would be great.