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GW seems to have it in for the eldar at the moment (although this isn't really news).
The wraithknight currently sucks pretty massively, especially in comparison to the supposedly clumsy and brutish imperial knights.
The following are some replacement rules for the wraithknight, as well as some rules for eldar knights of old.
Wraithknight
M14" WS3+ BS3+ S8 T8 W24 A4 Ld9 Sv3+
Powerfield: the wraithknight has a 5+ invulnerable save
Heavy Wraithcannon: range 36" Assault 3 S 16 AP-4 D-1D6
Suncannon: Range 48" Assault 3D6 S7 AP-3 D3
Inferno Lance: 30" S9 AP-4 D1D6 Roll 2d6 for damage within half distance and add them together
Deathshroud cannon
When you attack with this weapon, choose one of the following profiles:
Focussed18" Heavy 3D6 7 0 1 This weapon automatically hits its target. Wound rolls of 5+ for this weapon are resolved at AP -4 instead of AP 0. Targets gain no bonus for being in cover
Dispersed 60" Heavy 2D6 8 -2 D3 Wound rolls of 5+ for this weapon are resolved at AP -4 instead of AP -2. Targets gain no bonus for being in cover
Titanic GhostGlaive Melee Sx2 AP-4 D6+1D3 Targets that suffer damage lose 1d3 pts of leadership permanently
Scattershield Range 18" 3D6 S1D6 AP0 D1 if the unit does not shoot this during the turn, its invulnerable save is increased to 4+
Skathach: Upgrade to Skathach. and gain the following:
Webway Rupture: During deployment, you can set up the Skathach Wraithknight in the depths of the webway instead of placing it on the battlefield. At the end of any of your Movement phases, the unit can force a webway rupture to appear on the battlefield – set the Skathach Wraithknight up anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" away from any enemy models.
Webway Shunt Generator: At the beginning of your Movement phase, if this unit is not within 1" of an enemy model it can activate the shunt generator and return to the depths of the webway. Remove this unit from the battlefield. It can return to the battlefield as described in the Webway Rupture ability above. This unit may not use both the Webway Rupture and Webway Shunt Generator abilities in the same turn. If the battle ends while this unit is in the depths of the webway, it is considered to be slain.
Dragonfire blaster range 18” Assault 4D6 S5 AP-1 D2 auto hit
Flame shield 5+ invulnerable save. For each 6+ rolled, the attacking unit receives a mortal wound.
Choose two weapon options from the Wraithknight weapon list above
In addition, Towering Sentinels have two Destruction guantlets:
melee Sx2 AP-5 D6 enemy units that suffer casualties from this weapon are immobilised during their next turn and cannot fire on overwatch
range 12” Assault 2D6 S3 AP0 D1
Shoulder stormstrike launchers range 48” Heavy 2D6 S6 AP-1 D1 any unit damaged by this weapon is at -1 to BS in their next turn
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/04 06:16:41
Agreed completely with the 5++, it's rediculous that Imperial and Chaos Knights get an invuln for free but the Wraithknight has to give up it's currently limited shooting for one.
I think I'd make the Heavy Wraithcannon D 2D6 instead rather than give it a higher rate of fire.
Great change for the Suncannon.
I'd make the Inferno Lance R36" like it was in 7th, there was no need for it's range to be shortened in 8th and 30" is a weird range.
Good changes for the Deathshroud Cannon.
I don't think there was any change needed for the Ghostglaive, a flat 6 damage made it really scary against Knights and the leadership effect is useless, the only time you'll be using it is against Knights who don't care at all, anything else you'll tap dance on instead.
The Scattershield doesn't need a shooting ability, especially one it'll never use because it gimps it's defence. If you really want to emulate it's old Blind ability then how about "If a successful Invulnerable Save is made for a unit equipped with a Scattershield in the Shooting Phase, then enemy units suffer a -1 penalty to hit rolls in the following Fight Phase against this unit".
The only other thing I'd suggest is allowing the Wraithknight to mix and match it's weapons loadout, being locked in to one of 3 loadouts when the kit allowes for 7 (8 if you want to allow double Suncannon) is asinine, especially when the Skathach can freely do so anyway.
Not a fan of the old epic Knights for Eldar, the Bright Stallion looks like it belongs in Rune Masquer more than it does 40K, the Towering Sentinal is redundant with the Wraithknight and the Inferno Sentinal looks like it's trying to do the same to the Wraithlord, only with a flamer.
I don't think there was any change needed for the Ghostglaive, a flat 6 damage made it really scary against Knights and the leadership effect is useless, the only time you'll be using it is against Knights who don't care at all, anything else you'll tap dance on instead.
Fair enough. I was comparing it to knight melee weapons and how much better some of them were. I tend to approach things from 'eldar equipment is either equal to or better than imperial equipment - or differently better'.
The Scattershield doesn't need a shooting ability, especially one it'll never use because it gimps it's defence. If you really want to emulate it's old Blind ability then how about "If a successful Invulnerable Save is made for a unit equipped with a Scattershield in the Shooting Phase, then enemy units suffer a -1 penalty to hit rolls in the following Fight Phase against this unit".
I didn't realise it used to have a blind ability. My main reason for giving it a shooting attack is that the knight gives up a pretty potent weapon option in order to take an improved save, which is a pretty rough trade off.
Maybe the shooting attack should be in addition to the save, given it's a pretty minor one in comparison to the other guns. The design of this iirc came from a time where they were pushing saves in lieu of weapons (wraighblade axes etc), but it now looks really out of place to take away a powerful weapon option for a save.
I was thinking of it more like the serpent shield as an offensive blast released by the shield. Trading in a cannon for a shield is a poor option these days, but the model is stuck with it so I figured trying to turn it into a ranged weapon as well would even it out.
The only other thing I'd suggest is allowing the Wraithknight to mix and match it's weapons loadout, being locked in to one of 3 loadouts when the kit allowes for 7 (8 if you want to allow double Suncannon) is asinine, especially when the Skathach can freely do so anyway.
Agreed. It was implied in the original post but I didn't make it clear.
Not a fan of the old epic Knights for Eldar, the Bright Stallion looks like it belongs in Rune Masquer more than it does 40K, the Towering Sentinal is redundant with the Wraithknight and the Inferno Sentinal looks like it's trying to do the same to the Wraithlord, only with a flamer.
Certainly the old designs are out of place, but that's true for most things from that age - we wouldn't have so many marine dreadnoughts if they though deredo et al designs sucked 30 years ago so we shouldn't update them to the modern aesthetic.
Personally, I'm tired of GW just churning new unit types for the imperium like they're a high tech evolving society (the tau...?), so I'd like to see a similar number of unit options available for other armies.
I've always loved the bright stallion because it's unusual, and the towering destroyer has multiple arms which again is cool.
So I like the idea of having a fast cavalry lancer kninght, and a slower powerhouse knight that ploughs through the enemy,
The inferno sentinel was to provide a smaller cheaper knight between a lord and wraithknight.
As much as the non-shield versions of the WK need an innate durability buff, I don't like giving them a straight 5++ as it makes the shield pointless (and going to a 4++ is a bit OP) I'd prefer to see WKs coming standard with Spirit stones instead considering it's literally POWERED BY AND COVERED IN SPIRIT STONES.
But other than that, I like some of these changes. I also like the idea of the HWCs being Assault 3 each, as long as the stay at the current point value or lower, since you don't get the sheild with 2 of them (but with my proposal, would get Spirit stones).
Not sure I like the Suncannon being S7 as the steps a bit on the toes of the HWC. I'd prefer it stay S6, Ap-3, D2 but be Heavy 12. It's basically our Gatling cannon. And it goes well with Starcannons
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/07/05 13:16:15
JNAProductions wrote: So the Brightstallion gets a 22" move, and can get 12 S10 AP-4 D1d6 attacks on the charge?
I was basing it off the titanic feet attack the wraithknight has (12A S8 -2 D1d3), because I envisaged such a large creature at full gallop charging straight through a unit and skewering a half dozen at a time.
IMO feet attacks should really only be trebled against infantry, but currently as the rules stand, all knight types get 12A S8 attacks unless they're using a specialist weapon....
Happy to modify it - just like the idea of a shining spear type knight actually lancing things....
For movement, could do instead a static 16" with a longer charge addon instead,
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/05 02:34:41
I worry that the bright stallion's high movement will make it unenjoyable to play against. A 22" move is nearly as much movement as an advancing reaver jetbike. A turn 1 knight charge that you can't really do anything about except screen is probably going to get vetoed by your prospective opponents.
Also, the shuriken rack's strength seems weird to me. Why not give it the strength of a catapult or a cannon?
Destruction gauntlets seem frustrating to play against, and I don't really get the fluff you're going for. If you use them to squish some space marines, the rest of the marines in that squad are unable to move? I'm not clear on what you're going for there, but I bet your opponents will complain about it.
ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
Wyldhunt wrote: I worry that the bright stallion's high movement will make it unenjoyable to play against. A 22" move is nearly as much movement as an advancing reaver jetbike. A turn 1 knight charge that you can't really do anything about except screen is probably going to get vetoed by your prospective opponents.
Also, the shuriken rack's strength seems weird to me. Why not give it the strength of a catapult or a cannon?
Destruction gauntlets seem frustrating to play against, and I don't really get the fluff you're going for. If you use them to squish some space marines, the rest of the marines in that squad are unable to move? I'm not clear on what you're going for there, but I bet your opponents will complain about it.
Yeah will drop movement a bit.
Shuriken rack is an exercise in variety - the imperium Isn't the only army that can have a wide range of weapon types with interesting profiles.
I should probably change the name of the gauntlets to vibro gauntlets or something. The idea being that they use a vibro field that shatters the target and stuns them.
Conceptually it was to reflect the original fists on the knight from years ago, and also to give the Eldar a fist option that's their version of the imperial equivalent.
I don't think there was any change needed for the Ghostglaive, a flat 6 damage made it really scary against Knights and the leadership effect is useless, the only time you'll be using it is against Knights who don't care at all, anything else you'll tap dance on instead.
Fair enough. I was comparing it to knight melee weapons and how much better some of them were. I tend to approach things from 'eldar equipment is either equal to or better than imperial equipment - or differently better'.
The Scattershield doesn't need a shooting ability, especially one it'll never use because it gimps it's defence. If you really want to emulate it's old Blind ability then how about "If a successful Invulnerable Save is made for a unit equipped with a Scattershield in the Shooting Phase, then enemy units suffer a -1 penalty to hit rolls in the following Fight Phase against this unit".
I didn't realise it used to have a blind ability. My main reason for giving it a shooting attack is that the knight gives up a pretty potent weapon option in order to take an improved save, which is a pretty rough trade off.
Maybe the shooting attack should be in addition to the save, given it's a pretty minor one in comparison to the other guns. The design of this iirc came from a time where they were pushing saves in lieu of weapons (wraighblade axes etc), but it now looks really out of place to take away a powerful weapon option for a save.
I was thinking of it more like the serpent shield as an offensive blast released by the shield. Trading in a cannon for a shield is a poor option these days, but the model is stuck with it so I figured trying to turn it into a ranged weapon as well would even it out.
The only other thing I'd suggest is allowing the Wraithknight to mix and match it's weapons loadout, being locked in to one of 3 loadouts when the kit allowes for 7 (8 if you want to allow double Suncannon) is asinine, especially when the Skathach can freely do so anyway.
Agreed. It was implied in the original post but I didn't make it clear.
Not a fan of the old epic Knights for Eldar, the Bright Stallion looks like it belongs in Rune Masquer more than it does 40K, the Towering Sentinal is redundant with the Wraithknight and the Inferno Sentinal looks like it's trying to do the same to the Wraithlord, only with a flamer.
Certainly the old designs are out of place, but that's true for most things from that age - we wouldn't have so many marine dreadnoughts if they though deredo et al designs sucked 30 years ago so we shouldn't update them to the modern aesthetic.
Personally, I'm tired of GW just churning new unit types for the imperium like they're a high tech evolving society (the tau...?), so I'd like to see a similar number of unit options available for other armies.
I've always loved the bright stallion because it's unusual, and the towering destroyer has multiple arms which again is cool.
So I like the idea of having a fast cavalry lancer kninght, and a slower powerhouse knight that ploughs through the enemy,
The inferno sentinel was to provide a smaller cheaper knight between a lord and wraithknight.
thanks for the feedback.
With the Ghostglaive, your changes actually mae it worse. D6+D3 averages out at 5 damage. Given that it's currently a flat 6 thats a significant downgrade, especially when you roll a double 1 and do almost nothing with a Knight class weapon. I agree with your philosophy of Eldar weapons either being better or at least different in application but it's always best to considere what your target will be, the Ghostglaive will only ever be used against Knights where a leadership debuff is irrelevant, that would work better on the feet.
It does give up shooting but it pays for a pretty significant buff to it's survivability in return, I also noticed that the shooting you did give it had a random strength, a trait that would be widely hated.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Galef wrote: As much as the non-shield versions of the WK need an innate durability buff, I don't like giving them a straight 5++ as it makes the shield pointless (and going to a 4++ is a bit OP)
I'd prefer to see WKs coming standard with Spirit stones instead considering it's literally POWERED BY AND COVERED IN SPIRIT STONES.
But other than that, I like some of these changes. I also like the idea of the HWCs being Assault 3 each, as long as the stay at the current point value or lower, since you don't get the sheild with 2 of them (but with my proposal, would get Spirit stones).
Not sure I like the Suncannon being S7 as the steps a bit on the toes of the HWC. I'd prefer it stay S6, Ap-3, D2 but be Heavy 12. It's basically our Gatling cannon. And it goes well with Starcannons
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Your suggestions here are aweful. I agree that Spirit Stones should be an option for the Wraithknight (but not compulsory, it's already annoying that an Ulthwe Hemlock gets absolutely no benefit at all) but without an inuvln no one will ever take them outside of the friendliest of friendly games, they'll just be rediculously fragile. And whilst a 4++ can be OP on a Knight in a faction that can have 20CP in an army, to do so on a Wraithknight would require giving up a gun and paying points for it, there is a distinct trade off here. Also, not every blister on an Eldar unit is neccessarily a Spirit Stone.
Why shouldn't it be S7, it's a giant plasma gun? It's already increadibly annoying that xeno's plasma is always weaker than Imperial plasma now, but it doesn't actually step on the toes of the Heavywraith Cannon, or at least it wouldn't with my suggestion of the HWC being 2D6 damage whilst remaining 2 shots each. Lets be honest here, it's a gun thats literally tearing a whole into the fabric of the universe to suck you into the warp, it should be one of the scariest sub titan class weapons in the game, that it isn't is a complete joke.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/06 23:09:50
I hope you balance these points off of access to all those eldar psychic powers. Most of these weapons are great before you add in re-rolling hits or throwing out a -1 to saves. While the eldar don’t get a loyal 32, they do have better synergy with their support since they share the craft world keyword.
So starting, all wraitknights get a 5++ in shooting and melee? Considering that most other knight variants only get the invul against range attacks, that’s a huge buff.
Heavy wraithcannon is basically a more reliable version of the volcano cannons with a flat 3 shots instead of d3.
Suncannon has 3d6 shots averaging about 10 shots if you express down. With AP-3 and a flat 3 damage you’ve made a weapon that is effective against almost every single target in the game. If you add in doom and guide good luck ever surviving against two of these guns.
Deathshroud cannon should probably trigger on 6+ instead of 5+. I can’t think of any other weapon that has an effect like that on a 5+ naturally.
The ghostglaive is essentially a thunder strike gauntlet without the minus to hit penalty and only .5 wounds worse of damage per hit. Also the leadership damage would only be relevant if you had some way to damage your opponent on a leadership test....like mind war.
Webway rupture is very good. Your opponent basically has no way to avoid eating a full worms of shots from a wraithknight unit. It’s not much fun to watch this thing pop out and kill whatever it wants without any form of counterplay.
The shiny generator isn’t as bad but it does give the eldar an incredible amount of board control.
It’s been stated earlier but the brightstalion’s movement of 22 gives you a reasonable charge threat of 30”. You can’t really screen against that especially if you have to watch out for another deepstriking Knight. It all by has a garunteed first turn charge.
Does the lightsaber really need to reroll all failed hits and wounds? You could swing one or the other but both is a bit excessive.
Towering sentinels are effectively immune to ranged weapons when they get into CC range. The immobilization ability makes it the only unit that can stop units from falling back. That’s a powerful ability in itself even before you consider fact that it means it can’t be targeted in your opponents shooting phase. Also do the eldar need another source of -1 to hit? It’s common enough in their lists as is now imagine being able to stack a -3 to anything trying to target eldar flyers.
In short if you are trying to make wraithknights better than imperial knights, you have succeeded. In order for there to be any hope of balance though, you’ll need to up their points cost by a good amount. Also remember that you can’t balance in a vacuum. You have to add in the psycic buffs and remember that some armies don’t have knights either.
One last question, so these knights degrade? I assume so but no table was listed for it.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/07/08 16:48:53
Just a note-there are several units that stop fallback.
Skarbrand and Contorted Epitomes-Ld on 3d6 to fallback.
Slaaneshi Fiends-cannot Fall Back at all, unless you have FLY
Wyches-Roll off, beat the Wyches to escape. Have a weapon that makes you roll 1d3 instead of 1d6 to escape against their d6.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Skarbrand and Contorted Epitomes-Ld on 3d6 to fallback.
Slaaneshi Fiends-cannot Fall Back at all, unless you have FLY
Wyches-Roll off, beat the Wyches to escape. Have a weapon that makes you roll 1d3 instead of 1d6 to escape against their d6.
Fair on those examples but there is still a difference. All of these have conditions to shutting down the fallback and 2 of them allow you some sort of option to escape. Also none of these units can fallback shoot and charge again.
If that knight gets into combat and doesn’t kill its target (which is very likely for most large infantry units), it’s safe from any shooting on the opponents turn. It can then fall back, shoot, and charge again. Immobilization would be ok if you have some sort of chance to fallback besides die.
Galef wrote: As much as the non-shield versions of the WK need an innate durability buff, I don't like giving them a straight 5++ as it makes the shield pointless (and going to a 4++ is a bit OP) I'd prefer to see WKs coming standard with Spirit stones instead considering it's literally POWERED BY AND COVERED IN SPIRIT STONES.
But other than that, I like some of these changes. I also like the idea of the HWCs being Assault 3 each, as long as the stay at the current point value or lower, since you don't get the sheild with 2 of them (but with my proposal, would get Spirit stones).
Not sure I like the Suncannon being S7 as the steps a bit on the toes of the HWC. I'd prefer it stay S6, Ap-3, D2 but be Heavy 12. It's basically our Gatling cannon. And it goes well with Starcannons
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Your suggestions here are aweful. I agree that Spirit Stones should be an option for the Wraithknight (but not compulsory, it's already annoying that an Ulthwe Hemlock gets absolutely no benefit at all) but without an inuvln no one will ever take them outside of the friendliest of friendly games, they'll just be rediculously fragile. And whilst a 4++ can be OP on a Knight in a faction that can have 20CP in an army, to do so on a Wraithknight would require giving up a gun and paying points for it, there is a distinct trade off here. Also, not every blister on an Eldar unit is neccessarily a Spirit Stone.
Why shouldn't it be S7, it's a giant plasma gun? It's already increadibly annoying that xeno's plasma is always weaker than Imperial plasma now, but it doesn't actually step on the toes of the Heavywraith Cannon, or at least it wouldn't with my suggestion of the HWC being 2D6 damage whilst remaining 2 shots each. Lets be honest here, it's a gun thats literally tearing a whole into the fabric of the universe to suck you into the warp, it should be one of the scariest sub titan class weapons in the game, that it isn't is a complete joke.
I still think a straight 5++ on the basic WKs is too good. Remember that IKs only work against range because they have shields built in. WK have no such shielding. I kinda agree about buying Spirit Stones being annoying for Hemlocks, but Hemlocks in general don't benefit from ANY Craftworld other than Alaitoc. All other traits to nothing for the Hemlock, so that's a mute point.
How about this, instead of an invul save, or Spirit Stones, give the WK and ability called "Advanced Spirit stones" or "Spirit communion" or something. The ability works exactly like Spirit stones but succeeds on a 5+ instead of a 6. So you don't have to buy Spirit Stones, because it's a different name and an "free" ability. And since it's a 5+ per damage caused, it isn't as powerful as a 5++ which could ignore all the damage. It also would not conflict with the shield, which should still be just a 5++. If anything, we need a Stratagem to bump that to 4++
And as for not being S7 on the Suncannon. Yes, it's "plasma". But so is the Starcannon and DE Disintegrator. If you want the Suncannon at Str7, bump the Starcannon to Str7 too. Which, would actually give the Starcannon a niche not filled by Shuricannons and Scatter lasers. But if the whole point about not giving the non-shield WKs an invul is because they are 'worthless compared to the others" than you'll find the same thing happening if Suncannons can drop vehicles just as fast as HWCs. At Str 7, I'd also keep the random number of shots, but instead of 2d6, something like Heavy 6+d6.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/08 19:22:59
Galef wrote: As much as the non-shield versions of the WK need an innate durability buff, I don't like giving them a straight 5++ as it makes the shield pointless (and going to a 4++ is a bit OP)
I'd prefer to see WKs coming standard with Spirit stones instead considering it's literally POWERED BY AND COVERED IN SPIRIT STONES.
But other than that, I like some of these changes. I also like the idea of the HWCs being Assault 3 each, as long as the stay at the current point value or lower, since you don't get the sheild with 2 of them (but with my proposal, would get Spirit stones).
Not sure I like the Suncannon being S7 as the steps a bit on the toes of the HWC. I'd prefer it stay S6, Ap-3, D2 but be Heavy 12. It's basically our Gatling cannon. And it goes well with Starcannons
-
Your suggestions here are aweful. I agree that Spirit Stones should be an option for the Wraithknight (but not compulsory, it's already annoying that an Ulthwe Hemlock gets absolutely no benefit at all) but without an inuvln no one will ever take them outside of the friendliest of friendly games, they'll just be rediculously fragile. And whilst a 4++ can be OP on a Knight in a faction that can have 20CP in an army, to do so on a Wraithknight would require giving up a gun and paying points for it, there is a distinct trade off here. Also, not every blister on an Eldar unit is neccessarily a Spirit Stone.
Why shouldn't it be S7, it's a giant plasma gun? It's already increadibly annoying that xeno's plasma is always weaker than Imperial plasma now, but it doesn't actually step on the toes of the Heavywraith Cannon, or at least it wouldn't with my suggestion of the HWC being 2D6 damage whilst remaining 2 shots each. Lets be honest here, it's a gun thats literally tearing a whole into the fabric of the universe to suck you into the warp, it should be one of the scariest sub titan class weapons in the game, that it isn't is a complete joke.
I still think a straight 5++ on the basic WKs is too good. Remember that IKs only work against range because they have shields built in. WK have no such shielding.
I kinda agree about buying Spirit Stones being annoying for Hemlocks, but Hemlocks in general don't benefit from ANY Craftworld other than Alaitoc. All other traits to nothing for the Hemlock, so that's a mute point.
How about this, instead of an invul save, or Spirit Stones, give the WK and ability called "Advanced Spirit stones" or "Spirit communion" or something. The ability works exactly like Spirit stones but succeeds on a 5+ instead of a 6. So you don't have to buy Spirit Stones, because it's a different name and an "free" ability.
And since it's a 5+ per damage caused, it isn't as powerful as a 5++ which could ignore all the damage.
It also would not conflict with the shield, which should still be just a 5++. If anything, we need a Stratagem to bump that to 4++
And as for not being S7 on the Suncannon. Yes, it's "plasma". But so is the Starcannon and DE Disintegrator. If you want the Suncannon at Str7, bump the Starcannon to Str7 too. Which, would actually give the Starcannon a niche not filled by Shuricannons and Scatter lasers.
But if the whole point about not giving the non-shield WKs an invul is because they are 'worthless compared to the others" than you'll find the same thing happening if Suncannons can drop vehicles just as fast as HWCs.
At Str 7, I'd also keep the random number of shots, but instead of 2d6, something like Heavy 6+d6.
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I can understand why you wouldn't want the Wraithknight to get an invuln all the time, but given the way the game is thats just not practical, they will be the most glassy of glass hammers and since there's not really anything you can do to make them more survivable (no Iron Bullwalk or Rotate Iron Shields for us) they just wont see play.
evil_kiwi_60 wrote: I hope you balance these points off of access to all those eldar psychic powers. Most of these weapons are great before you add in re-rolling hits or throwing out a -1 to saves. While the eldar don’t get a loyal 32, they do have better synergy with their support since they share the craft world keyword.
Those powers cost a farseer/spiritseer to use, which should incorporate their additional value. You can't cost a unit on the potential for it to be better - otherwise strategems would push unit points up on the off chance someone used them.
So starting, all wraitknights get a 5++ in shooting and melee? Considering that most other knight variants only get the invul against range attacks, that’s a huge buff.
Yes it is. The eldar currently have two vehicles already with shields built into them (serpents and walkers). Imperial knights get a lot of extra kit with their codex that enables them to do a lot of things a wraithknight can't.
Heavy wraithcannon is basically a more reliable version of the volcano cannons with a flat 3 shots instead of d3.
Not really - volcano cannons are twice the range. D cannon weaponry is the eldar anti titan weapon. They effectively fire vortex grenades and have historically ignored void shields. They are very dangerous weapons.
Suncannon has 3d6 shots averaging about 10 shots if you express down. With AP-3 and a flat 3 damage you’ve made a weapon that is effective against almost every single target in the game. If you add in doom and guide good luck ever surviving against two of these guns.
I'm not super fussed about every modification, but you've got to remember that it's comparing to plasma decimators, avenger gatling cannons and rapid fire battlecannons. The imperium has a wide range of weapon options to choose from, wraithknights do not. Their weapons have to be equally useful against everything, because they can't simply swap out a better option.
I'd happily replace the suncannon with 3+ different weapon variants, just as soon as you convince GW to spend even an ounce of their marine pleasuring time on eldar....
The ghostglaive is essentially a thunder strike gauntlet without the minus to hit penalty and only .5 wounds worse of damage per hit. Also the leadership damage would only be relevant if you had some way to damage your opponent on a leadership test....like mind war.
Again, lack of options. Give me a powerfist option and I'd be happy having a worse sword.
Webway rupture is very good. Your opponent basically has no way to avoid eating a full worms of shots from a wraithknight unit. It’s not much fun to watch this thing pop out and kill whatever it wants without any form of counterplay.
The shiny generator isn’t as bad but it does give the eldar an incredible amount of board control.
Towering sentinels are effectively immune to ranged weapons when they get into CC range. The immobilization ability makes it the only unit that can stop units from falling back. That’s a powerful ability in itself even before you consider fact that it means it can’t be targeted in your opponents shooting phase. Also do the eldar need another source of -1 to hit? It’s common enough in their lists as is now imagine being able to stack a -3 to anything trying to target eldar flyers.
All knights in melee are immune to shooting, but I do get your point that they can keep a meatshield protecting them (but as others have pointed out, they aren't the only ones that can). However it's not really a great use of points to buy one and protect it with some guardsmen or marines. It's a powerful killing machine that's going to need to chase down expensive things if it's going to be an efficient use of its cost.
In short if you are trying to make wraithknights better than imperial knights, you have succeeded. In order for there to be any hope of balance though, you’ll need to up their points cost by a good amount. Also remember that you can’t balance in a vacuum. You have to add in the psycic buffs and remember that some armies don’t have knights either.
One last question, so these knights degrade? I assume so but no table was listed for it.
Yeah I never put points costs in when doing this, because they will invariably be guestimates and generally derail conversations on whether things are broken or not because of their cost. When all I'm looking at is whether the rules are doing what I want them to.
Which going by your comment, they are - making eldar knights superior to imperial ones.
Yes the knights degrade, but I couldn't be bothered putting that in, it didn't change from the original rules.
Thanks for the feedback.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/09 04:57:37
Apologies, I’m replying away from my computer so I can’t quote stuff with any ease
I understand your intent but you can’t balance just balance units without thinking of all the enablers. Stratagems and psycic powers have to be considered when making rules for any unit. Probably the biggest issue to balance was that no units or equipment were balanced with the thought of stratagems or other enablers. A unit with good rules becomes great once you add those in. Your alternative is to add the price onto he caster but why should someone running a much less overpowered aspect host pay a tax for knights they’re not running.
Arguing that some eldar vehicles get a 5+ invuls so knights should is like me saying that storm shields grant a 3+ invul so all imperial vehicles should be able to get one.
The heavy wraithcannon has a 36” range coupled with a 14” move. There’s very few places to hide from that on a standard board. The range doesn’t really matter because those 50” of effective coverage let’s you hit any target on the board unless you park it in the back corner. The supposed downside won’t come into play.
The knights do have a wide variation of weapons to choose from. None of them are as effective as those suncannons. If you’re set on making your own rules maybe you should write out rules for a matching weapon system rather than write rules for one that does just about everything better.
Please try to keep the bitterness out of your arguments. I can sympathize with disliking the amount of attention given to the imperium and doubly so to loyalists marines but that is no reason to intentionally design power creep.
Forgesorld is of course known for tightly balanced rule sets and for producing well balanced models. But that is fair, I’m not well versed in the imperial armor books. Most of the time I come across forgeworld though, it’s a sign that my opponent is looking to pummel me.
On that note do the eldar titans get that deepstrike ability or is it only on certain units?
All knights are immune to shooting if your opponent does not fall back. No one in their right mind wouldn’t fall back from combat with a knight. Anyone with half a braincell will pull back whatever is in CC to bring more shots to bare. The towering sentinel just flat prevents it. There is no option to avoid it outside of hoping you botch your charge and some very favorable rolls. With a knight size base it’s very easy to charge multiple units. It’s almost better to just wound multiple units because you shut them down for the rest of the turn. Taking away player choice is bad game design.
Yes some other models can make it harder to fall back. Two of them let you test against it and one of those options needs a unique greater demon to do it. I’m not a huge fan of the steed’s ability but even then there’s some qualifications and the steeds can’t fall back, wipe out entire units with shooting and then charge again.
And there in lies the issue. You just want the eldar knights to be better. That’s fair but it’s hardly a good way to try and design a rule set. If the eldar knights are better, how many more imperial knights should be able to be fielded against them? With this spread I’d go for a 2-1 ratio. Points are a part of the rules just like anything else. If you want to ignore them you could have saved a lot of time and just written each unit destroys d3 opposing units when it deploys. If you’re not trying to make balanced rules, what’s the point?
Hellebore wrote: GW seems to have it in for the eldar at the moment (although this isn't really news).
The wraithknight currently sucks pretty massively, especially in comparison to the supposedly clumsy and brutish imperial knights.
The following are some replacement rules for the wraithknight, as well as some rules for eldar knights of old.
Wraithknight
M14" WS3+ BS3+ S8 T8 W24 A4 Ld9 Sv3+
Powerfield: the wraithknight has a 5+ invulnerable save
Heavy Wraithcannon: range 36" Assault 3 S 16 AP-4 D-1D6
Suncannon: Range 48" Assault 3D6 S7 AP-3 D3
Titanic GhostGlaive Melee Sx2 AP-4 D6+1D3 Targets that suffer damage lose 1d3 pts of leadership permanently
Scattershield Range 18" 3D6 S1D6 AP0 D1 if the unit does not shoot this during the turn, its invulnerable save is increased to 4+
The Wraithknight doesn't suck, Imperial and Chaos Knights are OP. The Wraithknight is still better than most of the FW Knights. Wraithknights are at most 20% overcosted, at 335 with two guns they are better than pretty much anything in the game. A more accurate statement would be "Wraithknights, unlike a large chunk of the Craftworld roster are not quite good enough for dominating tournaments, I'd like them to once again dominate tournaments, this is how I'd do it." Wraith Knights don't have access to WL traits or Relics, but they do have access to Psychic powers and aura buffs which I'd argue is almost worth as much.
Giving Wraithknights M14 instead of giving them back Fly is a bit weird IMO. If they had Fly I think it would go a long way towards appearing more agile and that alone would almost make them worth their pts.
I don't get why the Wraithknight needs an invuln and why the Scattershield has to change, the smallest amount of change that makes it fluffy and viable would be best IMO.
The increase in damage output for the sword is really weird, it's already a really amazing weapon and easily the best current option if you are running a Wraithknight. Double moving with a psychic power and charging T1 you can kill a Knight before your opponent knows what hit him.
The sucky things on the Wraithknight currently are the the fists, suncannon, and the heavy wraithcannons.
The problem with the fists are that they are useless, they are worse than the basic feet in every case. The question is how worthwhile should they be, I think the answer is to make them flat 6 damage. That's the only rules change that is needed other than buffing their mobility (through FLY or +2 M) IMO. There is also still plenty of room for the Wraithglaive to be good since it has +1 to wound against T5+ and +2 against T 8+.
Then you just lower the cost of the suncannon and heavy wraithcannons to 40 and 35 respectively, if you didn't want to touch the fist I'd reduce them to 25 and 30 respectively. But the Sword doesn't currently need anything IMO, I doubt OP has played it or the game much in general.
Hellebore wrote: GW seems to have it in for the eldar at the moment (although this isn't really news).
Not a good start.
Looking at the suggested changes, a wraithknight with darkshrouds appears to be identical to a double battlecannon knight with the following buffs on top:
- all shots ignores cover
- one in every three shots also ignore armour
- any unit charging the knight suffers 6d6 (avg 21) S7 automatic hits (of which one third ignore armour - averaging 7 automatic wounds and 7 with saves, more against T3 targets)
- shield save works in close combat as well as at range
- optional teleport on demand
- optional psychic enhancements
Now the imperial/chaos knight in this instance would cost in 485 points without any of these these considerable improvements. What are you pitching the eldar knight at? 600-700?
(or alternatively - what would you think the imperial/chaos knight should pay for the listed shield, anti-charge, teleportation, psychic buff, and armour/cover ignoring upgrades - priced individually or all together?)
Hellebore wrote: GW seems to have it in for the eldar at the moment (although this isn't really news).
Not a good start.
Looking at the suggested changes, a wraithknight with darkshrouds appears to be identical to a double battlecannon knight with the following buffs on top:
- all shots ignores cover
- one in every three shots also ignore armour
- any unit charging the knight suffers 6d6 (avg 21) S7 automatic hits (of which one third ignore armour - averaging 7 automatic wounds and 7 with saves, more against T3 targets)
- shield save works in close combat as well as at range
- optional teleport on demand
- optional psychic enhancements
Now the imperial/chaos knight in this instance would cost in 485 points without any of these these considerable improvements. What are you pitching the eldar knight at? 600-700?
(or alternatively - what would you think the imperial/chaos knight should pay for the listed shield, anti-charge, teleportation, psychic buff, and armour/cover ignoring upgrades - priced individually or all together?)
Not quite accurate. AP-4 allows for a 6+ save on 2+ armor, and doesn't do diddly against Invulns.
But overall solid points.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Hellebore wrote: GW seems to have it in for the eldar at the moment (although this isn't really news).
Not a good start.
Looking at the suggested changes, a wraithknight with darkshrouds appears to be identical to a double battlecannon knight with the following buffs on top:
- all shots ignores cover
- one in every three shots also ignore armour
- any unit charging the knight suffers 6d6 (avg 21) S7 automatic hits (of which one third ignore armour - averaging 7 automatic wounds and 7 with saves, more against T3 targets)
- shield save works in close combat as well as at range
- optional teleport on demand
- optional psychic enhancements
Now the imperial/chaos knight in this instance would cost in 485 points without any of these these considerable improvements. What are you pitching the eldar knight at? 600-700?
(or alternatively - what would you think the imperial/chaos knight should pay for the listed shield, anti-charge, teleportation, psychic buff, and armour/cover ignoring upgrades - priced individually or all together?)
This is almost what the Skathach Wraithknight already is, and nobody plays Skathach Wraithknights because they're bad. The Skathach with twin Deathshroud Cannons and no secondary weapons comes in at 510pts, Hellebore has added in the ignores cover (something that everybody wants on their flamer weapons because it makes sense), an extra D6 shots per gun (which I think is fair, it's damage 1 gun and and at 2D6 with only a third of all wounds having any AP it actaully feels rather weak considering the points investment, and what numpty in their right mind is charging a damned Wraithknight with T3 models?), an extra 8" range (This one I think wasn't needed, it was fine at 10". Have only just noticed this change.)
I'm baffled why people are getting their panties in such a twist over the the WK getting a 5++ all the time, Imperial Knights have acces to the same through a relic but apparently thats OK. And before anybody launches with the silly guff about you having to take a relic to get it, I'd point out that Wraithknights don't have any relics and even if they did they couldn't take them anyway as they can't be characters, which also means they don't get any Warlord traits (not that there are any good ones in the Craftworlds codex to start with).
I'm surprised people care about the teleporting ability of the Skathach as it basically means you have to spend a turn off the table. This might be useful if your going second and want to live through the first turn but it also means you've got a quarter of your army off the table leaving your opponent two turns of shooting at the rest of your army before you bring it in. It's a cool idea but in practice just isn't very good.
Imateria wrote: This is almost what the Skathach Wraithknight already is, and nobody plays Skathach Wraithknights because they're bad.
The suggested change more than doubles the Skathach knights firepower and reduces incoming damage from high AP weapons by up to a third.
Your entire post is just going through each of the things I listed and downplaying them.
How about actually pricing them instead? The battlecannon knight is an existing, costed unit in the game - what would you pay for it to be able to ignore cover?, for the rending bonuses, the teleport pack, the saves, the flame accessory, and so on?
Hellebore wrote: GW seems to have it in for the eldar at the moment (although this isn't really news).
The wraithknight currently sucks pretty massively, especially in comparison to the supposedly clumsy and brutish imperial knights.
The following are some replacement rules for the wraithknight, as well as some rules for eldar knights of old.
Wraithknight
M14" WS3+ BS3+ S8 T8 W24 A4 Ld9 Sv3+
Powerfield: the wraithknight has a 5+ invulnerable save
Heavy Wraithcannon: range 36" Assault 3 S 16 AP-4 D-1D6
Suncannon: Range 48" Assault 3D6 S7 AP-3 D3
Titanic GhostGlaive Melee Sx2 AP-4 D6+1D3 Targets that suffer damage lose 1d3 pts of leadership permanently
Scattershield Range 18" 3D6 S1D6 AP0 D1 if the unit does not shoot this during the turn, its invulnerable save is increased to 4+
The Wraithknight doesn't suck, Imperial and Chaos Knights are OP. The Wraithknight is still better than most of the FW Knights. Wraithknights are at most 20% overcosted, at 335 with two guns they are better than pretty much anything in the game. A more accurate statement would be "Wraithknights, unlike a large chunk of the Craftworld roster are not quite good enough for dominating tournaments, I'd like them to once again dominate tournaments, this is how I'd do it." Wraith Knights don't have access to WL traits or Relics, but they do have access to Psychic powers and aura buffs which I'd argue is almost worth as much.
Giving Wraithknights M14 instead of giving them back Fly is a bit weird IMO. If they had Fly I think it would go a long way towards appearing more agile and that alone would almost make them worth their pts.
I don't get why the Wraithknight needs an invuln and why the Scattershield has to change, the smallest amount of change that makes it fluffy and viable would be best IMO.
The increase in damage output for the sword is really weird, it's already a really amazing weapon and easily the best current option if you are running a Wraithknight. Double moving with a psychic power and charging T1 you can kill a Knight before your opponent knows what hit him.
The sucky things on the Wraithknight currently are the the fists, suncannon, and the heavy wraithcannons.
The problem with the fists are that they are useless, they are worse than the basic feet in every case. The question is how worthwhile should they be, I think the answer is to make them flat 6 damage. That's the only rules change that is needed other than buffing their mobility (through FLY or +2 M) IMO. There is also still plenty of room for the Wraithglaive to be good since it has +1 to wound against T5+ and +2 against T 8+.
Then you just lower the cost of the suncannon and heavy wraithcannons to 40 and 35 respectively, if you didn't want to touch the fist I'd reduce them to 25 and 30 respectively. But the Sword doesn't currently need anything IMO, I doubt OP has played it or the game much in general.
This post is just flat out wrong on most things. The Wraithknight is one of the worst units in the game currently no matter what loadout you give it as it's damage ouptut is really poor, two Fire Prisms cost less, have a considerably higher maximum and average damage output, are arguably more survivable being separate units and can get full re-rolls to hit and wound whilst allowing the second Prism to ignore line of sight for 1CP. And they're still pretty poor. The fact that you think the majority of the codex can dominate tournaments also shows how little you know, less than a third of the codex is ever chosen for a tournament list because the rest of it is just plane aweful.
I'd be a bit circumspect about giving a Wraithknight Fly, that suddenly makes it a targetable unit for Cloudstrike, makign it possible to deep strike for 1CP instead of the extra 100pts you'd have to pay for a Skathach, and Lightning Fast Reactions. People already rightly hate Alaitoc, no need to givem Wraithknights at -2 to hit as well. Also, whilst a Wraithknight is supposed to be faster and more agile than an Imperial Knight I don't like the idea of it leaping over buildings as tall as it is, the increased movement goes far enough to demonstrate it's agility already.
Because it'll never be usable without one in the current rules system.
Have you tried doing any maths for these changes? The sword comes out as being theoretically capable of greater damage but averages out at doing less than it currently does, I've already pointed out that the changes Hellebore has suggest amount to being closeer to a debuff. Also, if you're double moving a Wraithknight then you are flat out cheating, all of the Runes of Battle buffs are specificaly restricted to INFANTRY and BIKER units.
On this point we're agreed, the sword really is the only good weapon option available to the Wraithknight. I think at this point I'd just remove the fists, giving them a flat 6 damage will probably make them a bit too good against other Knights to the point that a sword and board knight is never worth taking over a shooty one as the damage output in shooting and combat would be so good.
Again, have you tried doing any maths on the damage output of these weapons? Two Heavy Wraithcannons have a maximum damage output of 24 wounds with perfect rolling, thats less than just about any configuration of Imperial or Chaos Knight. Given the role the Wraithknight is supposed to fill, making them cheaper wont really make them better as they'll still be under gunned. In fact we'll be closely reaching the silly point where you'll get 2 Wraithknights for each Imperial or Chaos Knight, and thats still bad becuase even with Doom and Jinx on a Knight and Guide on one WK and autarch to re-roll 1's on another you still only average out causing 17 wounds. Thats completely rediculous given that every bit of lore out there says the Wraithknight should be more powerful.
As to available buffs, you're wrong on that one to. Yes, Guide, Doom and Jinx are extremely powerful abilities, and Fortune is rather useful as well, but this is getting close to being the complete extent of buffs available to the Wraithknight. They do not get warlord traits, there are no relics available to them, there are very few stratagems that can be used on them (2 of which require you to be within 6" of a Farseer which means your either not using any of that movement or are putting that Farseer in a potentially dangerous position) and the Craftworld traits only offer very minor buffs at best, nothing like the incredibly powerful buffs the Knight Houses offer. As for aura's, you have the re-roll 1's to hit from Autarchs (Knights can get this as well) and the re-roll 1's to hit from the Spiritseer, but only if it's within 6" of your target (the Spirit Mark rule is incredibly dumb, why on earth would you ever want a Psyker that close to the enemy?). So basically the bare bones options that almost every faction in the game has and that Craftworlds actually make very little use out of.
Lets be very clear, there are a lot less buffs availble to Wraithknights and whilst the ones they do have are powerful, they require spending hundreds of points on support characters and rolling dice on psychic powers (and every Eldar player out there has had a turn where they don't get a single psychic power off even with re-rolls, a problem relics, warlord traits and most stratagems don't have).
Imateria wrote: This is almost what the Skathach Wraithknight already is, and nobody plays Skathach Wraithknights because they're bad.
The suggested change more than doubles the Skathach knights firepower and reduces incoming damage from high AP weapons by up to a third.
Your entire post is just going through each of the things I listed and downplaying them.
How about actually pricing them instead? The battlecannon knight is an existing, costed unit in the game - what would you pay for it to be able to ignore cover?, for the rending bonuses, the teleport pack, the saves, the flame accessory, and so on?
Try reading my post. As I've said the Skathach already has most of what you're talking about and costs 510pts with this loadout, and it's absolutely sodding aweful With the changes proposed here, it's firepower is not doubled, but has gone up by half (4D6 to 6D6 is in no way close to being doubled). It's survivability is increased because it has none to start with. I was downplaying your points because your making too much fuss over them.
I would start by keeping the cost of the Skathach the same as it currently is (510 in this case) given that it's currently horribly overpriced whilst being horribly under gunned and very fragile. Playtesting from there would tell you if it needs it's points increased.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/11 14:31:06
evil_kiwi_60 wrote: Apologies, I’m replying away from my computer so I can’t quote stuff with any ease
I understand your intent but you can’t balance just balance units without thinking of all the enablers. Stratagems and psycic powers have to be considered when making rules for any unit. Probably the biggest issue to balance was that no units or equipment were balanced with the thought of stratagems or other enablers. A unit with good rules becomes great once you add those in. Your alternative is to add the price onto he caster but why should someone running a much less overpowered aspect host pay a tax for knights they’re not running.
Arguing that some eldar vehicles get a 5+ invuls so knights should is like me saying that storm shields grant a 3+ invul so all imperial vehicles should be able to get one.
The heavy wraithcannon has a 36” range coupled with a 14” move. There’s very few places to hide from that on a standard board. The range doesn’t really matter because those 50” of effective coverage let’s you hit any target on the board unless you park it in the back corner. The supposed downside won’t come into play.
The knights do have a wide variation of weapons to choose from. None of them are as effective as those suncannons. If you’re set on making your own rules maybe you should write out rules for a matching weapon system rather than write rules for one that does just about everything better.
Please try to keep the bitterness out of your arguments. I can sympathize with disliking the amount of attention given to the imperium and doubly so to loyalists marines but that is no reason to intentionally design power creep.
Forgesorld is of course known for tightly balanced rule sets and for producing well balanced models. But that is fair, I’m not well versed in the imperial armor books. Most of the time I come across forgeworld though, it’s a sign that my opponent is looking to pummel me.
On that note do the eldar titans get that deepstrike ability or is it only on certain units?
All knights are immune to shooting if your opponent does not fall back. No one in their right mind wouldn’t fall back from combat with a knight. Anyone with half a braincell will pull back whatever is in CC to bring more shots to bare. The towering sentinel just flat prevents it. There is no option to avoid it outside of hoping you botch your charge and some very favorable rolls. With a knight size base it’s very easy to charge multiple units. It’s almost better to just wound multiple units because you shut them down for the rest of the turn. Taking away player choice is bad game design.
Yes some other models can make it harder to fall back. Two of them let you test against it and one of those options needs a unique greater demon to do it. I’m not a huge fan of the steed’s ability but even then there’s some qualifications and the steeds can’t fall back, wipe out entire units with shooting and then charge again.
And there in lies the issue. You just want the eldar knights to be better. That’s fair but it’s hardly a good way to try and design a rule set. If the eldar knights are better, how many more imperial knights should be able to be fielded against them? With this spread I’d go for a 2-1 ratio. Points are a part of the rules just like anything else. If you want to ignore them you could have saved a lot of time and just written each unit destroys d3 opposing units when it deploys. If you’re not trying to make balanced rules, what’s the point?
I've already covered the available buffs in a previous post, there's considerably less available to the Wraithknight than people try to make out.
No Craftworlds vehicle gets an invuln outside of Titans and the Scorpion/Cobra super heavy. This is generally fine for most of their vehicles but is a massive problem on a Wraithknight that can't really be hidden easily and is a primary target in any game it's used in.
That threat range is the same as a Drukhari Ravagers, and there are plenty of times where it's not quite enough, usually when playing with Hammer and Anvil or table quarters deployment. The cavaet to this, of course, is that you'd play Wraithknights very differently to Ravagers, but frontlining is not always the best idea.
I'd argue that Cawl's Wrath or Endless Fury are both still better than the proposed changes to the Suncannon, and the Suncannon is also the most expensive weapon available to the Wraithknight already at 60pts compared to the Heavy Wraithcannon's 50. At that point it can be argued that maybe it needs to go up in cost, but I've yet to see anyone offer anything like a reasonable argument as to why only the Imperium is allowed to have powerful plasma tech and nobody else.
The deep strike abilities are unique to the Skathach Wraithknight from Forgeworld. It is important to remember that the base cost of the Skathach is 105pts more than the standard Wraithknight.
I've mostly skipped the talk regarding the translation of the old Epic Knights, but if the Towering Destroyer proposed here does completely prevent enemy units from falling back automatically then that is a badly overpowerd ability.
I see no problem with wanting Wraithknights to be at least a bit better than Imperial Knights, they are supposed to be more advanced and with very deadly weapons afterall, but they should also pay for it. They also need to compensate slightly for the vastly reduced selection of buffs compared with Imperial and Chaos Knights.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JNAProductions wrote: I believe they are referring to the Battle Cannon mode. That went from 1d6 to 2d6 shots, if Battlescribe is accurate.
Yes that would be a doubling of firepower, so bringing the gun up from being considerably worse to slightly better than a Rapid Fire Battle Cannon.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/11 14:59:07
Imateria wrote: Try reading my post. As I've said the Skathach already has most of what you're talking about and costs 510pts with this loadout, and it's absolutely sodding aweful With the changes proposed here, it's firepower is not doubled, but has gone up by half (4D6 to 6D6 is in no way close to being doubled).
For the sake of clarity - as I was comparing the wraithknight to the battlecannon knight I was using it's long range profile for reference and treating the flamer profile as an 'extra' (as it's something the wraithknight has that the imperial knight does not).
Imateria wrote: I would start by keeping the cost of the Skathach the same as it currently is (510 in this case) given that it's currently horribly overpriced whilst being horribly under gunned and very fragile. Playtesting from there would tell you if it needs it's points increased.
Cool.
So what you probably want to do here is tell imperial and chaos players they can have that long raft of upgrades on their knights for 25 points - which is what you've valued them at. Stick to the codex eldar rules against them.
Always best to be testing against the buffs to avoid the temptation to 'buff your own team', so the speak. Don't forget to let them apply allied faction psychic powers to the knights for a more complete test.
Imateria wrote: Try reading my post. As I've said the Skathach already has most of what you're talking about and costs 510pts with this loadout, and it's absolutely sodding aweful With the changes proposed here, it's firepower is not doubled, but has gone up by half (4D6 to 6D6 is in no way close to being doubled).
For the sake of clarity - as I was comparing the wraithknight to the battlecannon knight I was using it's long range profile for reference and treating the flamer profile as an 'extra' (as it's something the wraithknight has that the imperial knight does not).
Imateria wrote: I would start by keeping the cost of the Skathach the same as it currently is (510 in this case) given that it's currently horribly overpriced whilst being horribly under gunned and very fragile. Playtesting from there would tell you if it needs it's points increased.
Cool.
So what you probably want to do here is tell imperial and chaos players they can have that long raft of upgrades on their knights for 25 points - which is what you've valued them at. Stick to the codex eldar rules against them.
Always best to be testing against the buffs to avoid the temptation to 'buff your own team', so the speak. Don't forget to let them apply allied faction psychic powers to the knights for a more complete test.
I have no idea what you're on about here, I haven't valued anything at 25pts. Testing against what buffs and avoiding what temptation?, the whole point of this discussion is to buff the Wraithknight and Skathach Wraithknight from their current positions of uselessness. I'll ignore that last sentence, you seem to be talking useless nonsense.
Imateria wrote: I have no idea what you're on about here, I haven't valued anything at 25pts
You must have skimmed the first post you replied to.
It listed the twin battlecannon knight at 485 points as it was a unit with broadly the same weapons, a similar save, same statline, etc - it made the logical starting point against which to recost the new eldar knight.
You stated that you would price the wraithknight at 510, which means that in your opinion the new wraithknight rules are 25 points better than the current official imperial knight (with battlecannons).
Imateria wrote: I'll ignore that last sentence, you seem to be talking useless nonsense.
It means that someone making up/benefiting from powerful new rules for their faction will be more tempted to downplay them and call them 'fair', even when they are not.
Hey everyone. Just wanted to say thanks for the great debate and conversation.
These things can sometimes get heated and it's been nice to discuss (strongly) without getting out of hand.
In all honesty, I doubt GW will improve the wraithknight as it costs a lot less in dollars than Imperial knights. It is imo the same reason they downgraded the eldar titans so much.
Having played 40k since 1992 mainly as a space wolf player, I've gotten really tired of GW's marine super saturation. I get it, I like marines too (space wolves and salamanders specifically), but the amount of love they get actually makes me feel bad about playing them while xenos players are made to feel grateful for any crumb or scrap. The eldar were my second army after my space wolves and I loved them from 2nd.
I've been discussing shuriken catapults in a thread on here as well, because I think they're a travesty currently, while marines get umpteen different kinds of bolter...
I really just want to see the eldar get represented as they've been described for the last 30+ years.
I am not super attached to any one particular rule proposed here (although I am in the middle of converting a bright stallion and a towering destroyer from wraithknights, because I love any additional new and varied thing the eldar can have). I've not suggested additional wraithknight weapons, because we've only got what we've got. All the new weapons are on the completely non existent knights as there's nothing to work from anyway.
IMO the wraithknight suffers from a very peculiar physical design flaw that was briefly introduced in the edition it was created for (6th? - giving invulnerable saves as a weapon loadout option. It's just a really weird requirement that a whole gun is replaced with a relatively crappy invulnerable save.
In addition to that, the guns themselves are mediocre and outclassed, if not one on one, then by the variety of choice the imperial knights have. Just like the current phantom titan, it seems the only effective use is as a melee unit, which is pretty ridiculous IMO.
My goals here were twofold - make the eldar knights equal to or slightly superior than imperial ones as they 'should' be. But do so within the scope of the current unit options.
It would be quite easy to just add a whole slew of weapon options to the knights and make up the shortfall on their current weapons that way, but it's less practical to actually implement. There's a whole range of classic EPIC eldar weaponry to mine that even FW hasn't capitalised on (tremor cannons, plasma blasters - almost as many options as the imperials).
And introduce some classic era eldar knights to get even an ounce of the variety that the Imperium has in spades.
Imperial knights might be OP (I don't necessarily disagree) but GW have doubled down on them with chaos knights - now equipped with their own d-cannon type weapon which again is IMO superior (additional d3 mortal wounds on 6s?).
I'm more than happy to keep discussing the current knights and their weapon options.
Do you think they should have more weapon options? I kind of do, but I don't see GW actually releasing any,
Thanks for the feedback
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/11 23:17:15
Hey everyone. Just wanted to say thanks for the great debate and conversation.
These things can sometimes get heated and it's been nice to discuss (strongly) without getting out of hand.
In all honesty, I doubt GW will improve the wraithknight as it costs a lot less in dollars than Imperial knights. It is imo the same reason they downgraded the eldar titans so much.
Having played 40k since 1992 mainly as a space wolf player, I've gotten really tired of GW's marine super saturation. I get it, I like marines too (space wolves and salamanders specifically), but the amount of love they get actually makes me feel bad about playing them while xenos players are made to feel grateful for any crumb or scrap. The eldar were my second army after my space wolves and I loved them from 2nd.
I've been discussing shuriken catapults in a thread on here as well, because I think they're a travesty currently, while marines get umpteen different kinds of bolter...
I really just want to see the eldar get represented as they've been described for the last 30+ years.
I am not super attached to any one particular rule proposed here (although I am in the middle of converting a bright stallion and a towering destroyer from wraithknights, because I love any additional new and varied thing the eldar can have). I've not suggested additional wraithknight weapons, because we've only got what we've got. All the new weapons are on the completely non existent knights as there's nothing to work from anyway.
IMO the wraithknight suffers from a very peculiar physical design flaw that was briefly introduced in the edition it was created for (6th? - giving invulnerable saves as a weapon loadout option. It's just a really weird requirement that a whole gun is replaced with a relatively crappy invulnerable save.
In addition to that, the guns themselves are mediocre and outclassed, if not one on one, then by the variety of choice the imperial knights have. Just like the current phantom titan, it seems the only effective use is as a melee unit, which is pretty ridiculous IMO.
My goals here were twofold - make the eldar knights equal to or slightly superior than imperial ones as they 'should' be. But do so within the scope of the current unit options.
It would be quite easy to just add a whole slew of weapon options to the knights and make up the shortfall on their current weapons that way, but it's less practical to actually implement. There's a whole range of classic EPIC eldar weaponry to mine that even FW hasn't capitalised on (tremor cannons, plasma blasters - almost as many options as the imperials).
And introduce some classic era eldar knights to get even an ounce of the variety that the Imperium has in spades.
Imperial knights might be OP (I don't necessarily disagree) but GW have doubled down on them with chaos knights - now equipped with their own d-cannon type weapon which again is IMO superior (additional d3 mortal wounds on 6s?).
I'm more than happy to keep discussing the current knights and their weapon options.
Do you think they should have more weapon options? I kind of do, but I don't see GW actually releasing any,
Thanks for the feedback
I don't think there is anything wrong with your changes to the ranged weapons or adding a 5++ and +2 M from a balace perspective, I'm fairly certain the Wraithknight can handle it, with a slight increase in pts it can handle the sword and board buffs as well, your changes to the ranged weapons are fair enough as well, it's just way too many changes. IMO the biggest flaw in the current Wraithknight is the fists, the option has to be there for a reason, I think Wraithknights are not supposed to have a Crusader (dakka) analogy, they are meant to be good at punching vehicles and monsters even if it lacks the glaive.
I think it's perfectly reasonable that the Wraithknight lacks an invulnerable, why don't Wraithlords and Dreadnoughts get an invulnerable when Wave Serpents and Captains do? It's a design choice to make the Wraitknight less of a tank. Giving enemies penalties to hit is far more of an Eldar thing and knights have to stand apart from each other to not all just be the complete same. By giving Wraithknights an invulnerable regardless of loadout you are sameyfying the rules. We could all just share two dozen datasheets, but I think it's good that different factions have ways to differentiate between themselves. Nobody is forcing you to take troops any longer, that means that every Eldar unit truly has to be an Eldar unit, otherwise when someone spams that unit it will no longer feel like an Eldar army. That means that Eldar Knights should be more squishy, not less out the gate than a human Knight, although being less numerous and therefore more squishy per point invested is perfectly fine as well, but then you are changing 6-12 things about the Wraithknight when two rules changes and a pts overhaul could achieve similar results, do Wraithknights need to be more expensive than a human Knight?
I think making extra rules for alternate weapons is fun, but it won't change anything on the table unless you make them more powerful compared to the current line-up of weapons, options are useless if they aren't costed at a good price point and even if they are, you only get to write down one loadout on your army list, having 15 in the book changes nothing about the one you actually bring, you won't know what to bring before you see your opponent's army anyway. You also have the problem of creating a bunch of options without any way to represent them on the battlefield. Making rules for the other Eldar knights from epic makes far more sense than making weapon options that cannot be represented on the table and won't actually make the Knight better. Look at the thermal cannon, it being available changes almost nothing, it's just a noob trap AFAIK. There can never be too many options that are viable the meta and pts costs have determined that currently, the thermal cannon is useless, the same would be true for any Wraithknight weapons you create, the only thing you are getting is being able to badly fill alternate roles other than filling whatever role the best available one or two best weapons for the current meta do.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/07/12 05:55:04
