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I don't know if this is a silly question, but is there a reason Eldar don't make heavier use of automated machines in battle?

I can understand DE not using machines, since they want to experience the thrill of battle.

However, as a dying race, I'd have thought Eldar would try to minimise the number of actual Eldar present in any given battle.

Instead, it seems to be almost the opposite - their weapons platforms and vehicles all necessitate living pilots, and they even bring the Sci-Fi equivalent of militias into full-scale battles.


Does the fluff ever give a reason for this?

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:
I don't know if this is a silly question, but is there a reason Eldar don't make heavier use of automated machines in battle?

I can understand DE not using machines, since they want to experience the thrill of battle.

However, as a dying race, I'd have thought Eldar would try to minimise the number of actual Eldar present in any given battle.

Instead, it seems to be almost the opposite - their weapons platforms and vehicles all necessitate living pilots, and they even bring the Sci-Fi equivalent of militias into full-scale battles.


Does the fluff ever give a reason for this?

IIRC it’s because they used robots during the height of their empire, and that helped lead to the detachment from reality and decadence that led to the fall.

Also, why use artificial intelligence, with all the potential problems, when you can use the spirits of your ancestors instead? Wraith constructs serve the same function as robots.

They are so advanced that robots are basically like steam engines are to us. This is a wild guess.

They used to have armies of super-powerful automatons before the Fall, but their tech was psychic based and when the Fall Happened, they basically lost the ability to control them since they cannot use their psychic powers like they used too (they have to use psychic focus and jump through hoops to ensure their security and even then, it's not foolproof). Wraithguard and Wraithlord are basically the closest thing to robots Eldar still uses and can produce in good numbers. Eldar's technology is organic based (organic minds, organic materials, etc.). The concept of replicating a mind is probably alien to them and very disapointing. An Eldar mind is much, more complex and sophisticated then a human mind.

If I had to guess I would say it's a matter of efficiency.

They could make robots, but any AI would be vastly inferior (in their view) to the fullness and intensity of an aeldari mind. On the other hand, they could make a wraith construct (including non humanshape ones, as the wraithfighters show) instead, which would be more adaptable, experienced, and controllable than a robot.

The only limit there is the supply of usable souls, and I get the impression that the number of spirits in the infinity circuits far outstrip the number of wraith construct bodies to house them.

I feel the same way. Why use a robot when there's old guys sitting around idle?

Weird I was playing against another Eldar player at my club last week and we had the exact same discussion. Why not use drones?

I really like the ghost drone assassin model from early RT days ive seen pop up on ebay every now and then. I assume this used to be fluff to some degree. They seem to be "ghost warrior drone assassin" but that could be just bad ebay descriptive.

Anyway, the use of the dead souls to operate these machines is actualy a last resort for the ledar fluff wise, and they really don't like doing it. If the spirit stone is damaged or cannot be recovered the soul is lost so it makes sense they would like to avoid that.

It is my understanding, I could be wrong on this, that essentially a bonesinger can make all sorts of constructs/ engines of war from wraithbone. I would think that a simple operating system that could just make the thing go towards the enemy and fight until it is destroyed not beyond realms of possibility. I don't understand why there isn't a horde of automaton beasts plowing into enemy lines without risk to soul stones or Eldar lives. I mean it would make sense.

The Hemlock is supposedly the most horrific advanced Eldar weapon and is looked down because it essentially weaponizes the spirits of the dead. So it seems strange that they are willing to change convention to something they consider abhorrent and is basically seen as taboo heresy, but are not able not make drones because its not the Eldar way? Eldar can and do adapt and make new things. So I don't buy the argument that their apparently superior technology is set in its ways and cannot change or be improved. Seems devoid of logic because Eldar be Eldar…

Also their entire shtick of superior technology because "something something Grav Tanks" is drying up. Everything in the supposedly dark-age-of-technology-grim dark-imperium nowadays seems to have grav technology left right and centre.

Robots are easily possessed when put to widescale use.

 Nevelon wrote:

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:
I don't know if this is a silly question, but is there a reason Eldar don't make heavier use of automated machines in battle?

I can understand DE not using machines, since they want to experience the thrill of battle.

However, as a dying race, I'd have thought Eldar would try to minimise the number of actual Eldar present in any given battle.

Instead, it seems to be almost the opposite - their weapons platforms and vehicles all necessitate living pilots, and they even bring the Sci-Fi equivalent of militias into full-scale battles.


Does the fluff ever give a reason for this?

IIRC it’s because they used robots during the height of their empire, and that helped lead to the detachment from reality and decadence that led to the fall.

Also, why use artificial intelligence, with all the potential problems, when you can use the spirits of your ancestors instead? Wraith constructs serve the same function as robots.

This pretty much.

The point of the path system is that you do and experience things for yourself, the start of the end of the old empire was that everything was automated including warfare and this eventually led to the pleasure cults as everyone was spending their time trying to amuse themselves. From the perspective of them being a dying race it doesn't make much sense that they do all their fighting themsleves, but on the other hand they'll take the view "We murder fethed a chaos god into existence once and killed billions of our own people, lets go out of our way to never do that again".

 Argive wrote:
Weird I was playing against another Eldar player at my club last week and we had the exact same discussion. Why not use drones?

I really like the ghost drone assassin model from early RT days ive seen pop up on ebay every now and then. I assume this used to be fluff to some degree. They seem to be "ghost warrior drone assassin" but that could be just bad ebay descriptive.

Anyway, the use of the dead souls to operate these machines is actualy a last resort for the ledar fluff wise, and they really don't like doing it. If the spirit stone is damaged or cannot be recovered the soul is lost so it makes sense they would like to avoid that.

It is my understanding, I could be wrong on this, that essentially a bonesinger can make all sorts of constructs/ engines of war from wraithbone. I would think that a simple operating system that could just make the thing go towards the enemy and fight until it is destroyed not beyond realms of possibility. I don't understand why there isn't a horde of automaton beasts plowing into enemy lines without risk to soul stones or Eldar lives. I mean it would make sense.

The Hemlock is supposedly the most horrific advanced Eldar weapon and is looked down because it essentially weaponizes the spirits of the dead. So it seems strange that they are willing to change convention to something they consider abhorrent and is basically seen as taboo heresy, but are not able not make drones because its not the Eldar way? Eldar can and do adapt and make new things. So I don't buy the argument that their apparently superior technology is set in its ways and cannot change or be improved. Seems devoid of logic because Eldar be Eldar…

There is *some* power behind their arrogance that doesn't allow them to adapt as quickly to better strategies that don't match their preconceived notions. But that logic certainly have limits.

Robots would require quite a bit of production. They "sing" material into existence, but we don't know at what rate, or how much excess they have. Perhaps they're barely able to keep up with maintaining their Craftworld and current Warhosts. But if they *weren't* limited in resources, then why isn't every Guardian driving it's own Wave Serpent or Vampyr? Why don't they have virtually unlimited Dragon-class Cruisers? Whether it's a plot hole or lore-intended, CWE seem to be resource-constrained. Robots might be better if they had the resources to spare, but they might not have the resources - or time - to build the automata warhosts we'd think they should.

Also their entire shtick of superior technology because "something something Grav Tanks" is drying up. Everything in the supposedly dark-age-of-technology-grim dark-imperium nowadays seems to have grav technology left right and centre.

Plasma was S7 and dangerous, with more advanced races (Eldar, T'au) using more advanced technology to make it safe at S6. Now IoM has safe plasma at S7.
Eldar are the masters of maneuverable combat. Which is why their constructs get -1-to-hit while firing heavy weapons on the move, but Land Raiders, Leman Russes, and several other IoM vehicles do not. Because the Serpent is much more lumbering and low-tech than a Russ or Raider...
Eldar vehicles were lightyears beyond IoM, with their hovertanks that could stand up to IoM treaded tanks. Now IoM has hovertanks too. Only tougher than Eldar, because IoM have better tech.
Eldar had Jetbikes, whereas the IoM had only a couple legacy relic jetbikes. Now IoM mass-produces better jetbikes. Again, because IoM have better tech.

Going by recent releases, IoM tech is well beyond CWE...

It kinda pisses me off.

The Imperial Infantryman's Primer was quite clear about the Eldar's antiquated weaponry.

Nurglitch wrote:
The Imperial Infantryman's Primer was quite clear about the Eldar's antiquated weaponry.

No idea what that is. Can you cite a passage?

Im going by what ive been reading in old brbs and some codexes. That has always seemed their 'flavour'

It's their flavor.

But SM must have all the fancy toys other factions have. So they get the Serpent, but even stronger. So they get Safe Plasma like Xenos, only better. So they get to fire on the move. And soforth. Because Primaris Marines must be the bestest ever.

Which is what pisses me off.

As for the Primer, it's satirical/in-universe propeganda. It's intended to be laughable. Look some of it up, it's great.

Bharring wrote:
It's their flavor.

But SM must have all the fancy toys other factions have. So they get the Serpent, but even stronger. So they get Safe Plasma like Xenos, only better. So they get to fire on the move. And soforth. Because Primaris Marines must be the bestest ever.

Which is what pisses me off.

As for the Primer, it's satirical/in-universe propeganda. It's intended to be laughable. Look some of it up, it's great.

Yeah I get that. Im personnaly not too bothered. TBH marines did need an overhaul, those old marines were pretty dated and looked like dog gak.. I like the new asthetic. The stat creep is another another matter all together.
I think once primaris are done we might get a major overhaul next. I can only hope thats the reason we still have to deal with failcast.. Im hopeful, but time will tell.

Alas we are getting off topic. Would be cool if in a new iteration of eldar would become like space ninjas backed up by mad mechs/monsters and drones, rather than space elves.
I hope we might see some automaton type wraith beasts and exodite monsters. its just wish listing obviously but why not eh..

My reasoning is the same reason as to why no one else in the universe does, because AI and Robots in 40K are poorly written and rely on a stupid trope that is so overused it might as well just die off.

"Oh NoEs! Mah Robutts want To KiLl Meeeee"

God that gets old.

 Togusa wrote:
My reasoning is the same reason as to why no one else in the universe does, because AI and Robots in 40K are poorly written and rely on a stupid trope that is so overused it might as well just die off.

"Oh NoEs! Mah Robutts want To KiLl Meeeee"

God that gets old.

Heh. That got old in 1940s, which is why Asimov explicitly wrote about robots that DON'T turn against their masters in his stories. And we still get it anyway. At that point I don't think it'll ever go away...

Wraith-Constructs ARE Eldar Robots. They are just powered by the spirits of the dead because that's a far more sophisticated "computer" than any AI they could make.
But they don't like using that as it's akin to Necromancy to them, which the CWE have distain towards (much to the delight of Dark Eldar)

-

Tiennos wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
My reasoning is the same reason as to why no one else in the universe does, because AI and Robots in 40K are poorly written and rely on a stupid trope that is so overused it might as well just die off.

"Oh NoEs! Mah Robutts want To KiLl Meeeee"

God that gets old.

Heh. That got old in 1940s, which is why Asimov explicitly wrote about robots that DON'T turn against their masters in his stories. And we still get it anyway. At that point I don't think it'll ever go away...

Probably not. But just once I'd like to see a scifi series avoid it all together, the way Star Wars does.

 Galef wrote:
Wraith-Constructs ARE Eldar Robots. They are just powered by the spirits of the dead because that's a far more sophisticated "computer" than any AI they could make.
But they don't like using that as it's akin to Necromancy to them, which the CWE have distain towards (much to the delight of Dark Eldar)

-

I think the point is more that CWE should use disposable forces, instead of Eldar lives. The Honored Dead are *less* disposable than even living Eldar. And half of them carry weapons that damage the *materium itself*. The idea is to mass-produce a force that can be deployed without risking something as valuable as an Eldar life.

To that end, they more-or-less *do* do that, in propping up the T'au, and other machinations. They lack complete, direct control - but they are often able to leverage autonomous systems that risk 0 Eldar lives.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Togusa wrote:

Tiennos wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
My reasoning is the same reason as to why no one else in the universe does, because AI and Robots in 40K are poorly written and rely on a stupid trope that is so overused it might as well just die off.

"Oh NoEs! Mah Robutts want To KiLl Meeeee"

God that gets old.

Heh. That got old in 1940s, which is why Asimov explicitly wrote about robots that DON'T turn against their masters in his stories. And we still get it anyway. At that point I don't think it'll ever go away...

Probably not. But just once I'd like to see a scifi series avoid it all together, the way Star Wars does.

The Eldar have their own such story in the Crystal Sons of Asuryan. Granted, they were beings created by a God, and not what we'd consider "machines" - but same concept. They needed battle, so they became a liability in peacetime.

 Togusa wrote:
My reasoning is the same reason as to why no one else in the universe does, because AI and Robots in 40K are poorly written and rely on a stupid trope that is so overused it might as well just die off.

"Oh NoEs! Mah Robutts want To KiLl Meeeee"

God that gets old.

It's different in 40k because it's not your normal AI rebellion; robotics and AI are fine until the eye of chaos turns to face it.

And then you have the perfect receptive vessels for the daemons of Chaos to reach into reality.

Or, for added grimdarkness, once ANYONE has Artificial Intelligence, the AI realizes how completely fethed that culture is in 40K, and *boom* Robot Uprising!

I mean, they aren't wrong...

What if there can be benevolence in AI?
I recently listened to an interview with one of leading AI researches. It was interesting to listen to his opinions about the elephant in the room A.K.A. what if we make Skynet when AI becomes self aware...

What he was saying struck a cord; if you build AIs to take care of agriculture, medicine and welfare, the AI will likely be benevolent as it primary drives will be "good". If you build it to spy on people and work out how cause brain washing and kill the right people chances are it will not turn out benevolent when it becomes sentient.

So an AI created to run a craftworlds gardens etc could possibly be used to defend too and not turn on its organic creator overlords...

 Argive wrote:
What if there can be benevolence in AI?

In reality maybe, in 40k, benevolence isn't a thing and that's a large part of the problem.

 Daba wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
My reasoning is the same reason as to why no one else in the universe does, because AI and Robots in 40K are poorly written and rely on a stupid trope that is so overused it might as well just die off.

"Oh NoEs! Mah Robutts want To KiLl Meeeee"

God that gets old.

It's different in 40k because it's not your normal AI rebellion; robotics and AI are fine until the eye of chaos turns to face it.

This might be why they rely so heavily on spirit stone technology. Maybe since the eldarbot has a soul already infused it is mostly immune/resistant to possession. Do we have any examples of wraith constructs getting possessed or corrupted?

A Thousand Sons, by Graham McNeil.

 DominayTrix wrote:

 Daba wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
My reasoning is the same reason as to why no one else in the universe does, because AI and Robots in 40K are poorly written and rely on a stupid trope that is so overused it might as well just die off.

"Oh NoEs! Mah Robutts want To KiLl Meeeee"

God that gets old.

It's different in 40k because it's not your normal AI rebellion; robotics and AI are fine until the eye of chaos turns to face it.

This might be why they rely so heavily on spirit stone technology. Maybe since the eldarbot has a soul already infused it is mostly immune/resistant to possession. Do we have any examples of wraith constructs getting possessed or corrupted?

Not an elder construct per say, but in the old 5th ed Chaos Daemon codex a Keeper of Secrets possessed a freaking Avatar of Khaine and if he can be possessed, I hold no hope for Eldar constructs to withstand a serious attempt.

Plus Eldar souls shine in the warp like a Beacon and I don't think they're resistant to possession at all themselves, they just have certain rare gear (Runes of farseer, ghost helms and the circuitry spiders in the craftworlds spirit circuit) to help evade. Unless we're talking about the Harlequin Solitaire, that guy puts some Primarchs to shame in the fluff.

Nurglitch wrote:
And then you have the perfect receptive vessels for the daemons of Chaos to reach into reality.

One of the plot points in a GG book was them finding a corrupted Men of Iron STC that heavily implied the Dark Age MOI had also been corrupted by chaos.

Wraith Constructs are driven by Spirit STones. Spirit Stones are already possessed - by an Eldar soul. It's possible it could be possessed by a different entity instead, though.

Back in the day...