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Space Wolves have their 12 Great Companies, Black Templars their 6000+ marines, the Exorcists with an extra company of Scouts, the Minotaurs who's numbers seem to replenish so quickly the implication is they have more than 1000 marines... In the lore it seems like this "limit" is one of those things that are easily used to distinguish chapters.

Ignoring the fact everyone got a company of Primaris, any other Chapters mentioned with over 1000 marines?

I also remember it was mentioned somewhere that the 1000 limit will sometimes be suspended for Chapters operating in protracted campaigns. I was thinking in the event there is a surplus after the conflict, are there any accounts of such marines being used to found new chapters?

everyone DIDN'T get a company of Primaris, chapters where reinforced with primris marines, but they wheren't strictly doled out as companies. some didn't receive any and instead simply where given the ability to make primaris for example

Ignoring the current 11th company of primaris the ultramarines has an 11th company based on Sotha after 2nd founding and from the fluff I always had the impression that tree scout company was considerably larger than normal

goundry wrote:
Ignoring the current 11th company of primaris the ultramarines has an 11th company based on Sotha after 2nd founding and from the fluff I always had the impression that tree scout company was considerably larger than normal

the 11th primaris company was just a temporary thing, basicly Gulliman orginzied them in an adhoc company before he could put them into seperate companies. what was the company on Sotha, is that the Ultramarines honor company?

BrianDavion wrote:
what was the company on Sotha, is that the Ultramarines honor company?

No - Gulliman left the 199th "Aegida" company of the Legion on Sotha to guard the remains of Mount Pharos (as a hidden 11th Company). When the Third Founding was announced the Ultramarines used it as cover to convert them into the Scythes of the Emperor.

When I said “everyone got” I wasn’t being so literal. A lot of chapters got Primaris and no doubt it’s had an impact on chapter structures in a variety of different ways. Ignoring the Primaris there are a number of Chapters that for whatever reason have larger numbers than the Codex Astartes permits... besides the ones I mentioned does anyone else know of any others?

aka_mythos wrote:Black Templars their 6000+ marines

Is that still canon? I thought that they were far smaller now, only slightly larger than the 1000 (more like 1500 now?)

goundry wrote:Ignoring the current 11th company of primaris the ultramarines has an 11th company based on Sotha after 2nd founding and from the fluff I always had the impression that tree scout company was considerably larger than normal

That company was reformed into the Scythes of the Emperor during the 3rd Founding, the Ultramarines had to ensure that they weren't seen to be breaking the Codex limits.

There doesn't seem to be many chapters that really deviate from the codex. The Space Wolves do, but since they don't have any descendant chapters they're the only ones to use their own special organization. All of the other loyalist legions mostly went along with the codex and so their successors did, too.

Having small variations on the codex seems to be almost universal outside of uptight Ultramarines successors, but breaking the "1000 maximum" rule is apparently very rare. Maybe the Inquisition gets uppity when that happens?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:Black Templars their 6000+ marines

Is that still canon? I thought that they were far smaller now, only slightly larger than the 1000 (more like 1500 now?)

Its hard to say since they haven't really had a big fluff update or codex in some time. Digging around for more info, it seems like before the 13th Black Crusade their ranks may have exceeded 6000, but its always given with that in lore caveat of "no one really knows". In the least, in the build up to the 13th Black Crusade the way they're operating would imply they still exceeded the 1000. They send a fleet consisting of several battle barges, where a Strike Cruiser is typically what transports a company, and a Battle Barge can typically have 3 or more companies of marines. Maybe they're under-manning the Battle Barges, idk.

The way they're lore has been realigned now is that the 6000+ Templars isn't so intentional a violation of the Codex Astartes, but just as was mentioned before, Chapters engaged in protracted conflicts aren't held to that 1000 marine limit, and the 6000+ was just a consequence of having so many fronts to their crusades that they were constantly engaged in protracted conflicts and didn't entirely know how many members they had at a given time. The author of one of the more recent Black Templar novels has said that at the time of his book they're down to the standard 1000.

This just speculation, but similar to how the Blood Angels and their successors organized into a single large force during the Black Crusade, the Templars may have some sort of arrangement with their successors and other Dorn successors... where being a Templar on Crusade is a mantle that can be taken up in support of the core Black Templar chapter when they're heading out on crusade. In the lore on more than one occasion where the Imperial Fists took significant losses the Black Templars sent members that became Imperial Fists and helped restore its numbers... the Black Templars may have something like that going on, where other Dorn successor chapters send them marines to swell their ranks to Crusading levels when they're needed.

The 6,000 Black Templar thing is misleading. There are that many but they are not a Chapter. They are a Crusade. They're like a political or religious movement that's gotten out of control and that's why they fall through a loophole. They're never all in one place and don't have a home planet. The Inquisition would have a hard time proving how many Templars there are not that they would care to bring them to heel anyway. The Templars beliefs are the most similar to the Inquisition anyway. As long as they don't all amass in one place for an extended period it's basically don't ask, don't tell.

Anyways, to answer your question the cadre of Dark Angels chapter known as "The Unforgiven" is sometimes though to not actually be 7 separate chapters but actually the remnants of Legion pretending to be separate chapters. They essentially all take their orders from Azreal if he wished to exercise that power.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
The 6,000 Black Templar thing is misleading. There are that many but they are not a Chapter. They are a Crusade. They're like a political or religious movement that's gotten out of control and that's why they fall through a loophole. They're never all in one place and don't have a home planet. The Inquisition would have a hard time proving how many Templars there are not that they would care to bring them to heel anyway. The Templars beliefs are the most similar to the Inquisition anyway. As long as they don't all amass in one place for an extended period it's basically don't ask, don't tell.

It's clear they're a loophole, and their zeal for the Emperor probably helps get the Inquisition or Lords of Terra to turn a blind eye. "These guys are so busy killing heretics they don't have time to go renegade"... But I think your analogy to a political or religious movement is pretty similar to what I'm saying. Its easy to imagine for the sake of killing more heretics they'd be more open to 'relaxed' and informal relationships with other Imperial Fist successor Chapters that want to join them on crusade all flying under the same common banner the crusading part of their former Legion used.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Anyways, to answer your question the cadre of Dark Angels chapter known as "The Unforgiven" is sometimes though to not actually be 7 separate chapters but actually the remnants of Legion pretending to be separate chapters. They essentially all take their orders from Azreal if he wished to exercise that power.

The Blood Angels while not as sneaky or formally, also did something similar during the Dark Crusade. So while its clear that the strict division of power in the form of chapters is taken seriously, the bonds of blood and the informal organization of chapters around their parent chapter isn't really taboo. The Dark Angels are doing something more severe.

Just to add to the chapters working with successors in larger forces... I believe the Iron Hands had a number of successors send representatives to their council to coordinate their efforts. The Iron Hands being formed of Clans and break away Clans often being the core of successor chapters, its easy to imagine the Iron Hands wouldn't see much difference in continuing to allow these clans a place in their council when the "Iron Hand" clans meet.

Right, of course the Blood Angels, Ultramarines, Iron Hands, etc. tend to have good relations with their successors but with the Dark Angels....there's always seems to be something a bit more sinister going on all the time...

There is also a differance between cordinating between your chapters as a matter of routine and cordinating as a matter of "HEY GUYS! OUR PRIMARCHS HOMEWORLD IS ABOUT TO GET EATEN!"

It’s interesting really how much of a force multiplier Ultramar actually is the ultramarines with their pdf troops and sector Battlefleet just about managed to batter off a hive fleet them selves but the blood angels needed to call in their successors.
It shows why the imperium was broken up the way it is but also show how hypocritical Ultramar is

goundry wrote:
It’s interesting really how much of a force multiplier Ultramar actually is the ultramarines with their pdf troops and sector Battlefleet just about managed to batter off a hive fleet them selves but the blood angels needed to call in their successors.
It shows why the imperium was broken up the way it is but also show how hypocritical Ultramar is

I think it's worth noting that the hive fleet that bore down on Ultramar and the one the Blood Angels where facing where two VERY VERY VERY differant things. Hive Fleet Behmeoth was... a crude thing, it's numebrs less and it's voer all approuch was.. less intelligent, Hive Fleet Leviathen is a MUCH MUCH MUCH more dangerous foe.

IA10 suggests the Carcharodons may be over 1000 marines, but also that it may be under 1000. Essentially, they deployed roughly 6 companies to the Badab War, but it was unclear whether this was the whole Chapter, or only a part of it - and that the Carcharodons themselves may not know the fates of other parts of the Chapter. The implication is that the Carcharodons may only number 600, but equally, because they deploy in 'Nomad-Predation' organisation, they may number more. How much more is debatable.

Further lore from 'Red Tithe' and 'Outer Dark' detail the Chapter's recruitment and replenishment process. Essentially, a Company is assigned to each role. The Grey tithe secures archaeotech to barter with the Mechanicus for material. The Red Tithe is more interesting - essentially the wholesale abduction of the population of renegade, prisoner, secessionist or errant populations (Under an Imperial Warrant) and then a fight to the death, with the survivors being recruited.

To me, this would suggest that the not only are two extra companies unaccounted for at Badab, out on tithe duties, but that there may be further sub-fleets out hunting that the Chapter is not in regular contact with. Furthermore, I would not be surprised if the irregular nature of their recruiting results in a glut of aspirants at some points, and a paucity at other points - leading to the number fluctuating above then below the official number as the Chapter's fortunes fluctuate.

it's also worth noting that given the proable orgin of the caracadons, they may technicly pre-date the second founding and thus likely use a distinct orginization scheme unique from normal Marines. much like the Grey Knights (and yes I'm aware the Grey Knights are technicly a second founding chapter, but they where orginzied prior to the offical second founding and it shows in their unique orginization)

That too is a good observation Brian Carcharodons have two theorised origins. 1st, most alluded to, is that they are descended from an exiled Raven Guard contingent, the Ashen Claws, exiled during the GC and never recalled. As such, being essentially a pre-Codex founding, they may have been given Chapter status in the loosest sense, maybe purely administratively, to account for them.

Going a little OT however, there is a bit of a discrepancy, one that I've only just noticed actually. The Ashen Claws were exiled as part of Corax's reforms purging Terran influences, and were not recalled even during the Horus Heresy and the decimation of the Legion, not even by Corax himself. So, if that's the case, if even the Primarch didn't want them back, why would the Adeptus Terra list them as a Loyal Chapter, and not just as another group of Blackshields or renegades? This is all the more important because the next sighting we have of them is in their Scourge of the Nostramo sector, where they identify as neither an Imperial, nor Traitor force, but proceed to annihilate the remnants of Night Lords forces in the system, as well as later assaulting Ultramarines in the Quetesh system (Where they openly announced their heritage and rejected both sides). I find it hard to believe that the Imperium would gladly receive them back as a Chapter.

Finally, we have the events of Outer Dark in which the Carcarodons meets with the still renegade Ashen Claws, and are addressed as 'Brothers' - indicating a common lineage. However, to an extent, all Space Marines address each other as 'Brother', so this may not be in the literal genetic sense. It would seem odd that the Chapter would derive from the renegades, leaving some outcasts as Ashen Claws surviving into 40k, while others are apparently welcomed back as Carcharodons.

The 2nd origin is that the Carcharodons are descended from loyalist World Eaters, although this is purely based on their savagery and beserker like combat. There may be a few lines of dialogue that support this in McNiven's novels, but I can't recall them to mind.

Basically, my point is that the Carcharodons have a very uncertain past that has left them with characteristics that are not codex compliant and are quite possibly derived straight from a number of highly unconventional Legions. Added to this, their method of operation, and length of exile may have led to highly irregular numbers of marines, with not all being accounted for in wider Imperial knowledge.

Possibly just head canon but I assumed the Carcharodons were the remains of one of the other fleets Corax exiles rather than former ashen claws which is why they walk different paths but still interact

@Goundry - That's also a good call actually. I think I may have got confused between the two named Nomad-Predation Fleets. One is the Ashen Claws, but the other is the contingent under Arkhas Fal, the Shade Lord. Tyberos the Red Wake, Chapter Master of the Carcharodons, is also termed the Shade Lord. So, a correction of myself - the Carcharodons may hail from Arkhas Fal's contingent, not the Ashen Claws. But the point still remains - they were not recalled under dire circumstances, are pre-2nd Founding and operate in a markedly different manner to codex compliant Chapters - so their numbers may be drastically above or below depending on how strung out they are.

At one point one of the FW developers was asked what happened to the monsters that Corax "created", when the Alpha Legion contaminated the materials being used to rebuild his legion with the super tech the Emperor gave him to make his Raptors... and the Dev's response response implied it was something to do with the Characaradons.

We know during the Heresy when Corax made the Raptors he made about 2000 of them before the Alpha Legion added daemon blood to the vats... and that afterwards only 1 in 10 was a fully viable space marine and from the other 9 out of 10, we know a good number were completely useless while others were just capable enough to use a bolter... with a few ending up as these hulks that towered over normal astartes and lead around to battle on chains. After the Heresy he down the defective mutants, but its easy to imagine that someone insisted the geneseed be preserved, and that millennia later out of desperation it was used to jumpstart a newchapter... or that some of those post-Raptors made from that stock while "fully viable" weren't normal.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Right, of course the Blood Angels, Ultramarines, Iron Hands, etc. tend to have good relations with their successors but with the Dark Angels....there's always seems to be something a bit more sinister going on all the time...

It goes a bit further than that. Dante clearly had precedence and authority over the successor chapters of the BA in his book and Devastation of Baal. And the Imperial Fists had their own weird thing in the War of the Beast stuff, where the successors made sure the primary chapter survived.

It isn't just good relations, it seems to be the rule for half the loyalists.

Voss wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Right, of course the Blood Angels, Ultramarines, Iron Hands, etc. tend to have good relations with their successors but with the Dark Angels....there's always seems to be something a bit more sinister going on all the time...

It goes a bit further than that. Dante clearly had precedence and authority over the successor chapters of the BA in his book and Devastation of Baal. And the Imperial Fists had their own weird thing in the War of the Beast stuff, where the successors made sure the primary chapter survived.

It isn't just good relations, it seems to be the rule for half the loyalists.

Dante's authority was because he specificly asked, and was granted authority for the engagement. as is common when multyiple chapters engage in a conflict

BrianDavion wrote:

Voss wrote:


It goes a bit further than that. Dante clearly had precedence and authority over the successor chapters of the BA in his book and Devastation of Baal. And the Imperial Fists had their own weird thing in the War of the Beast stuff, where the successors made sure the primary chapter survived.

It isn't just good relations, it seems to be the rule for half the loyalists.

Dante's authority was because he specificly asked, and was granted authority for the engagement. as is common when multyiple chapters engage in a conflict

Yeah and that’s really normal in the real world when there’s mutual aid or interagency cooperation. They pick the person with the most relevant experience and the most local knowledge to be in charge of that specific operation. When they did it in the Badab War they called this the Magister Militum.

The important thing is that Dante, Calgar, Culn, or Grimnar at Cadia would never be able to take the most trusted member of his honor guard whom he’d been indoctrinating for years and make him chapter master of any of the chapters he’d be commanding. He wouldn’t have the authority to order the chaplains in another chapter to start recruiting from a planet of secret chaos cultists. They’re all still autocephalous, separate chapters; he’s just a leader for a particular op.

 aka_mythos wrote:
Space Wolves have their 12 Great Companies, Black Templars their 6000+ marines, the Exorcists with an extra company of Scouts, the Minotaurs who's numbers seem to replenish so quickly the implication is they have more than 1000 marines... In the lore it seems like this "limit" is one of those things that are easily used to distinguish chapters.

Ignoring the fact everyone got a company of Primaris, any other Chapters mentioned with over 1000 marines?

I also remember it was mentioned somewhere that the 1000 limit will sometimes be suspended for Chapters operating in protracted campaigns. I was thinking in the event there is a surplus after the conflict, are there any accounts of such marines being used to found new chapters?

I doubt that there are any Space marine chapters EXACTLY 1000 marines in number.

The are either under that number or slightly above that number.

godking wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:
Space Wolves have their 12 Great Companies, Black Templars their 6000+ marines, the Exorcists with an extra company of Scouts, the Minotaurs who's numbers seem to replenish so quickly the implication is they have more than 1000 marines... In the lore it seems like this "limit" is one of those things that are easily used to distinguish chapters.

Ignoring the fact everyone got a company of Primaris, any other Chapters mentioned with over 1000 marines?

I also remember it was mentioned somewhere that the 1000 limit will sometimes be suspended for Chapters operating in protracted campaigns. I was thinking in the event there is a surplus after the conflict, are there any accounts of such marines being used to found new chapters?

I doubt that there are any Space marine chapters EXACTLY 1000 marines in number.

The are either under that number or slightly above that number.

Just to clarify I'm talking about Chapters that ignore the 1000 marine limit, intentionally or unintentionally. Some have special dispensation, others don't. Some do it intentionally, sometimes secretively, others it just happened because Chapters can operate over great distances and go for decades without meeting up with the rest of their chapter.

Given the messed up and confused Imperial bureaucracy that can misplace chapters or have multiple chapters operating under the same name, I would not be surprised if there were a number of chapters accidentally operating above-strength due to fleet dispersal and the difficulty of keeping track of each other, especially among fleet-based chapters.