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So as I have been going through my Armies Apoc datasheets I am seeing a lot of units that were dead to me before gaining new life.

I play Tau and Nids.

For Tau

-Crisis Suits seem good again as a deep striking tactical unit to be in a detachment with a commander. They can have less over all weapons but some of the weapons seem pretty good and they are durable as far as apoc goes.

-Sniper drones got great. Actually sniper anything got good in this version. Since they now do what they should have always been able to do.

-Pathfinders got amazing. No longer taken to get access to drones for others, pathfinders are now snipers without the name when they bring a recon drone and with Ion Rifles and Rail rifles can threaten pretty much any target on the table.

-Drones as wargear works well. I can't think of why I would want a shield drone instead of the reroll 1s to hit and wound with a gun/marker drone but I love giving those to all the units.


For Nids

-The Swarmlord just became an actually viable unit. He is VICIOUS. Not the expensive one trick pony that launches genestealers any more, his bone swords can chew through entire units very quickly.

-Venomthropes went from providing their -1 to hit aura to infantry to -1 to hit aura for everyone which makes them great. I build a command detachment with the Swarmlord, Tyrant Guard, Neurothropes and Venomthropes and lead the charge for my swarms. It was fantastic having a nice centerpiece Tyrant to lead from the front.

-Hormagaunts is one of the only units that I have seen that roll 12 dice rerolling 1s for a mere 7 PL. What used to be a distraction unit used to tie up vehicles and pull fire away from bigger threats is now a cheap a vicious serious threat on the table. I am going to be building more hormagaunts.

-The Tyrannocyte has a use now at least. It still has the weird restrictions it had in regular 40k, but now that units need to stay in tight formation with their detachments it is a good way to deliver non deepstriking units with otherwise deepstriking units. Adding a synapse unit to a detachment with the Red Terror and some Raveners for examples. The Tcyte isn't the best unit, but I can at least find a use now a days.



These are my initial observations. What about anyone else?

Some, but not me, would say things like this are a ploy by GW to make models that aren’t that popular or useful and aren’t selling well in the current 40K meta into something useful and sellable in another game system at least. But that would be cynical to say...

I can see a shield drone on a unit like broadsides to give them a 4 plus.



Now maybe this is wishful thinking, but maybe deathstrikes aren't utter trash in apoc. They're certainly better in apoc than 40k.

There is a card that lets you choose a .... detachment? (it might be unit) and refill all it's one use only wargear. Have a small battery of deathstrikes with that card in the mix can get 2 maybe 3 missiles out of each vehicle.

The Monolith is BACK!

Speaking of Necrons, Lychguard are fething brutal.

A unit or 2 of 10 with Kutlahk the World Killer looks mean as hell.

CHAOS
-----------
Obliterators, 4+ save, 6 wounds, wounds on a 5+
Defilers, with disco to hit bonus, have decent amount of weapons/attacks and no movement penalty
Terminators 4+ save
Abaddon, 3+ save, all saves use a D12, 6" aura of reroll hits & auto-pass morale

KNIGHTS
--------------
Rapid Fire Battle Cannon, 4 shots per gun at 72"

Drop pods. Deep strike is amazing in apoc, and (as far as I know, maybe I missed a "half or less" rule or something) totally unlimited by turn number and units are allowed to act normally after deep striking.

I'm insanely jealous of the fact that marines can just drop their gak wherever it needs to go, and they can essentially grant any unit deep strike to follow along with a detachment of terminators, jumpers or other units. Add that the deathwind launcher is a pretty quality gun that'll probably cause a blast or two the turn it comes in, and you've got a sweet little unit.

Harlequins. Just, in general. Having finally gotten a chance to test them out, they're not the absurd powerhouse I thought they could be, and the Death Jester still manages to be the most hilariously awkward and pointless model ever EVEN IN A GAME WHERE MORALE IS A THING, but on the whole harlequins are beautiful in apoc.

I tried the "3x10 clowns, shadowseer, troupe master, death jester on foot" setup and it was...ok? Long story short it ate an artillery barrage turn 1 and I lost a full 10-man troupe and the troupe master right off the bat, but after that it performed pretty well and I think made its points back eventually.

But 3x5 troupes+Troupe Master in 3x starweavers? That sounds like it'll be a real spicy meatball. Fire those suckers straight into the middle of enemy lines with an assault order turn 1 and you've got nothing but beautiful chaos.

Drop pods.

Amazing.

Half or less the units in rhe army have to be on the table still.

 Lance845 wrote:
Half or less the units in rhe army have to be on the table still.

Got it, I figured there must be something I was missing somewhere. Because deep strike is really super freaking good. The general rule of "A unit that can deal its damage turn 1 costs roughly twice what a unit that definitely can't" kind of applies if you add the cost of the Pod/Transport to the unit. But the "immobile" ability I think is going to be something really underrated with drop pods, because something I've experienced in my couple of test games is that the biggest issue with everything having to stay around the Warlord is that holding objectives becomes awkward.

So if you use your deep strikers to snag an objective that your opponent left behind, you can just hold it with the stationary, doesn't-care-about-command-radius wall of meat that is your 3 Drop Pods instead of holding it with the troops inside.

it is a bummer that full DS armies aren't allowed, but they would be pretty OP

stratigo wrote:
it is a bummer that full DS armies aren't allowed, but they would be pretty OP

As a guy who plays GSC, I am very glad they are not.

I’ve only gotten one game in but space marines are in an interesting place. A lot of units that got mothballed in 8e are getting work done. A lot of this is just due to all the traditional heavy weapons actually getting their own distinct niches with different combinations of SAP, SAT and range.

Tactical squads. These actually have a distinct reason to exist vs scouts or intercessors. They have a much better save than scouts out of cover. They have fewer wounds and less CC than intercessors but have higher dmg output due to their heavy weapons.

Transports in general. You’re protected for a full round because dmg happens last. You might take a blast when the transport dies but you can’t die if you have at least 2 W.

Vindicators. Demolisher cannons are amazing and a 4+ save for 10 PL is legit.

Land speeders. Cheap, fast, firepower. All of the load outs are usable, but I like the multimelta a lot for anti tank. The hard part will be keeping them in coherency.

Terminators. 3+/4+ saves are amazing when they can’t be modified into irrelevance. Their toughness lives up to the lore in apoc. Expensive but actually worth it for the first time in many editions.

Just some early observations.

You will want to get those speeders in a detachment with a HQ on a bike (it looks like every non primarus character can take a bike for 1 PL).

eeeeeeeeeeeeh. Tac squads still kinda suck. Devs shine by concentrating fire power. Intercessors are straight better than tacs though.

Transports LOOK good, but also expensive. This is something I'd want to play around with and see played before I make an actual decision, as it doesn't leap out at me just looking at stats and thinking it through. I am hopeful. Rhino marines still have a place in my heart.

I've not fielded the Avenger Strike Fighter in 8th edition due to it not making the transition from 7th to 8th very well.

Looking at it for Apoc though makes me seriously looking forward to blowing the dust off it and throwing it down on the table.

stratigo wrote:
eeeeeeeeeeeeh. Tac squads still kinda suck. Devs shine by concentrating fire power. Intercessors are straight better than tacs though.

Transports LOOK good, but also expensive. This is something I'd want to play around with and see played before I make an actual decision, as it doesn't leap out at me just looking at stats and thinking it through. I am hopeful. Rhino marines still have a place in my heart.

I'm not sure that intercessors are always better than Tacs. full Tac squad is 10 PL and full intercessor squad is 12 PL (20% more expensive). Intercessors get double the wounds and double the attacks in melee, but they have only 2 shots with good SAP vs the Tacs 3 shots (one of which can have a good SAT, which intercessors just straight can't do). Both are troops, so both fit in a battalion and get objective secured (I think?). Tacs have cheaper transport options with drop pods and rhinos/razorbacks. I think they've got a niche as flexible, multi-purpose troop choices which is kind of what their lane is supposed to be. Whereas the intercessors are more specialized in being tough footsloggers that kill other troops. Devastators have more firepower per point but lose objective secured and fill a different detachment slot. Objective secured may not sound like much but I think most of the missions are progressively scored so stealing an objective point vs someone who skewed out of troop choices can be a big deal.

It's still early so who knows how things will shake out but at least for now I think there are reasons I'd take Tacs over Intercessors or scouts or devastators.

nomadimp wrote:

stratigo wrote:
eeeeeeeeeeeeh. Tac squads still kinda suck. Devs shine by concentrating fire power. Intercessors are straight better than tacs though.

Transports LOOK good, but also expensive. This is something I'd want to play around with and see played before I make an actual decision, as it doesn't leap out at me just looking at stats and thinking it through. I am hopeful. Rhino marines still have a place in my heart.

I'm not sure that intercessors are always better than Tacs. full Tac squad is 10 PL and full intercessor squad is 12 PL (20% more expensive). Intercessors get double the wounds and double the attacks in melee, but they have only 2 shots with good SAP vs the Tacs 3 shots (one of which can have a good SAT, which intercessors just straight can't do). Both are troops, so both fit in a battalion and get objective secured (I think?). Tacs have cheaper transport options with drop pods and rhinos/razorbacks. I think they've got a niche as flexible, multi-purpose troop choices which is kind of what their lane is supposed to be. Whereas the intercessors are more specialized in being tough footsloggers that kill other troops. Devastators have more firepower per point but lose objective secured and fill a different detachment slot. Objective secured may not sound like much but I think most of the missions are progressively scored so stealing an objective point vs someone who skewed out of troop choices can be a big deal.

It's still early so who knows how things will shake out but at least for now I think there are reasons I'd take Tacs over Intercessors or scouts or devastators.

Yeah, give me Tacs every time. Tacs can have a Drop Pod and show up right where they need to be in rapid fire range turn 1. Intercessors have to slog into range or shoot at half strength.

Only problem with Tacs is that they are kind of outclassed by devs/sternguard. a dev squad with 3x weapons and boltguns costs the same as a tac squad with 1x weapon. So if you're playing tacs, you have to play them in a battalion and use them to seize objectives - which is fine, that's a thing you're going to need and you should load up the drop pods to do it. But if you want to just kill stuff, take dev squads with 4x weapons and 10-man.

Anything you want to deepstrike in.... is likely better with other units then tactical marines.

Tacs are too easy to kill to be proper objective grabbers. It takes very little fire to clear them off an objective. Intercessors are a way better choice at standing on an objective, and I don't particularly rate them over other choices for space marines.

I don't actually think space marines need obsec since their obsec choices aren't the best. But if you really want, scouts remain cheap and do okay in cover and there are infiltrator commanders out there now too. But there's no just mass blob of cheap bodies that SM can tap in to like some other factions.