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One of my opponents is running an abyssal Tormentor on a unique Battle mount with a great weapon.
This provides the model with 6d8 melee dice hitting infantry models on 2+ with Vicious and CS 3. It is also quite tough to put any damage on it thanks to its Demonic Roar ability (attacker has to pass morale test modified by -1, otherwise hits on 7+) and Ar 4. Sure, the model with the equipment is costly (62 points) but managed to kill half of my warband while taking a mere 1 wound. The model also provides 3 red dice to the pool, so the opponent's warband (in our campaign) averages 8-9 dice per round, practically all the time more than my Forces of Nature can do (usualy 7). I consider in particular the combination of 2+ hitting with Vicious quite over the top, especially on a model with so many melee attacks, easily retaliating with 8d8 all the time thanks to the warband ability as well.

What do you think ...

I think you should change tactics:
Don't try to kill him, but try to occupy him and steal his actions to deny him the models usefulness.
How to do that?
Quite similar to what i do with my goblins when i play against abyssals (though he fielded a blood masque and devastator all the time so far):
Your trident (or was it your harpoon?) can fatigue him. For me, its my shaman (or wiz as mantic calls them) who can stun him via spell.
Second thing you can do is to engage him with cheap warriors. Only engage! You wouldn't be able to kill him AND their retaliate is devastating!
He needs a long action to disengage, so he won't be really able to do anything else. If he attacks... Well maybe you survive! Maybe you even have an inspiring character close for a reroll or try a lucky charm! Or a shield and do a brace to improve survivability. If your model gets killed you still pinned him for a turn! He has to kill a lot of cheap units to kill to get in his 62 points back!
I will be facing Blaine (also 62 points) in my next campaign game, and i will do that exact tactic again. You can read about it in my blog, link in the other thread).
You are forces of nature, you can also put an obstacle as a spell... Suddenly he has to walk around it more or less losing a turn.

Thanks for your reply, Schmendrick. Yes, you are right that occupying the model is the only choice. Unfortuntely, attacking with the trident is not a good option. I tried it, but hitting on 7+ (after failing demonic roar) is not so good and the naiad is also almost sure to die even if it hits (do note the tormentor can retaliate even if activated and fatigued due to its ability). I also do not think you can brace when engaged. Do also note that the cheapest model FoN have at disposal is for 11pts, so the engaging tactics is a loss of 3-4 models (= about 40 points) for nothing during the game. The opponent can also kill (or knock down) the engaging model with another charger, then move/charge freely with the tormentor. I also have the entangle spell at my disposal, but again it is not easy to get the spellcaster within 12" for the long action and have the cover ready that the opponent cannot engage the caster to prevent casting any spell. In reality, the tactics you propose do not work so easily ...

The only only advice I have is the same as above, try to put cheap models in base contact but don't attack it.

Not sure what else can be done.

Of course, as already said, one can try to put cheap models in contact to occupy the beast but it may not work so easily. The tormentor can also opt for breaking away getting in contact with a more valuable model, then smashing it as a fatigue action (almost instant kill for virtually anything but similar monstrosities or some Large models).

I have though a bit more about the issue since I posted and the longer I think about it the more I feel it is a serious balance problem, not a problem that should be dealt with tactically.

well, to state the obvious: to break away he needs a long action; he then can fatigue to make an attack if he gets into contact with somebody. in case you position yourself so that he needs to get around you in order to get into contact with that one, then all the better. but he then will have to buy that one off again and it cost him a power point and neglected his free melee attack when charging. but i get your point for "crowded" scenarios like the "Supply Grab" your scenario will happen.

by the way whats the rest of his army looking like? In my plays against abyssals I two times was able to kill his grunts off and make him break. those grunts he needs to take in order to unlock the tough guys and still have enough points for them.

do you put on at least one or two pieces of difficult terrain on the table? Else you would not be able to benefit from your Warband ability while he certainly will!

I do agree however that the tormentor is really strong! I am not yet convinced he breaks the game though.

There was a good coverage of the terrain pieces in our game but we do not play elevated places to climb which would reduce the effectivenes of cavalry models. There were two GW forests and a plenty of obstacles but Pathfinder does not work for the latter.

His warband:
tormentor - unique mount, HW
hellequin
gargoyle
3x abyssal guard (1 with helm of command and rare mount)
succubus
2x lower abyssal

Maybe I miss on some more equipment. So, just two grunts. Do note even if the tormentor does not charge nor buys additional d8, he still has 6 attacks providing (almost always) 6-7 hits with CS3. Most models are pressed hard to face it. That's why I say he can choose to break away and attack another model just once to kill it. With Sp 7, he is the one to choose what is attacked in most situations. In addition, the abyssal warband has usually more power dice than mine ...

Just for a reference, I play:
gladewalker druid (with lucky charm)
salamander veteran
naiad ensnarer
forest shambler
centaur bray-hunter
3x naiad
2x salamander unblooded

Al Quds wrote:


Maybe I miss on some more equipment. So, just two grunts. Do note even if the tormentor does not charge nor buys additional d8, he still has 6 attacks providing (almost always) 6-7 hits with CS3. Most models are pressed hard to face it. That's why I say he can choose to break away and attack another model just once to kill it. With Sp 7, he is the one to choose what is attacked in most situations. In addition, the abyssal warband has usually more power dice than mine ...

wait, you say 6d8? on https://vanguard.easyarmy.com/ it says 4d8! (unfortunately the model is not present in the warband rules so I cannot rule out its a mistake of easyarmy)

The unique battle mount (only available in campaign games afaik) grants +1 wound and +2d8 to melee. It is also the only mount usable for large models, thats why some people believe it is overpowered.

Indeed, the game we played was a part of a campaign. We are 4 players in it, I am the only one who does not use the unique battle mount. The tormentor with it is a particularly nasty combination ...

H0neyBe4r wrote:
The unique battle mount (only available in campaign games afaik) grants +1 wound and +2d8 to melee. It is also the only mount usable for large models, thats why some people believe it is overpowered.

Ah sorry! Forgot that! Yup! Al Quds wrote about it!

Yeah, to be honest its also the first thing I will buy for my Biggit in my campaign as soon as I can spare any gold!

He only has 9 models but most of them are not squishy... so just counting on it that you get him to run by killing 5 units would not be a good option.

I only had more minor ideas. One is to get a hill (at least one) which needs to be climbed.
Or use fences in your games and agree that cavalry cannot jump/climb fences, but only infantry can. That can hinder his movement which in turn can hurt quite a lot with such an expensive model. (we played like that so far without reading properly that crossing it would be allowed)
Then about the army composition...
Well, doubt if it would do the trick but you could take the Centaur Chief and a Centaur... charge him, get 3 hits which knocks him down due to SMASH, activate the other model, attack him. It would also negate his Cavalry Special Rule against the Centaurs.

Thanks for trying to help, Schmendrick. Sure, there are some options but not any working in a sufficiently reliable way. Any mellee attacks may easily be hindered by the demonic roar ability. In addition, the centaur chief is not an option for me as my campaign company does not have him included. I am considering taking a water elemental on a battle mount to have my opponents eat their own medicine but so far I declined from using the unique mount as I do not like playing what I myself consider clearly OP.

In fact, I have an option in my warband. The centaur bray-hunter is my Hunter (retinue member), so he has Marksman and Pond(ranged!) abilities. One still needs luck to pull it off but this may have a better chance that the other suggestions. However, if the 3 hits are not scored, the centaur is as good as dead. In fact, that's exactly what happened in my last game. I tried to Pond the tormentor with my hunter, have not succeded and then the tormentor went rampage through half of my warband. The last one to fall (before I conceded the game) was my mauler (forest shambler) that charged, scored 1 wound (hitting on 7+ because of demonic roar), got himself 3 wounds on retalialtion and the next attack the mauler was dead also due to retaliation (again failed demonic roar). So, my mauler was killed by two retaliations, the tormentor even did not attack the shambler on his own. Sure, my dice did not work as they should, but still ...

Part of the problem is that one really does not want to get an inspiring model close to the tormentor to get rerolls on the demonic roar (or any other moral tests). If one does so, the tormentor can just break away, engage the model with inspiration and kill it with just one melle attack.

Large powerful characters riding large powerful monsters have no place in a small-scale skirmish game in the first place... unless in a special scenario that is designed around that character. I suggest that, if your gaming buddies agree, you simply house-rule such characters out of the game or house-rule a point cost increase.

Been gaming for many years and played WH and WH40K for over a decade! So I am well aware that hideously flawed point costs and game-breaking characters and monsters DO INDEED make it into published games with regularity! It's your group's game now. Do what you want with it to make it work for your group.