Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

How do!

Number crunchers required for this one I'm afraid.

So we've now got the rules for the Forgeworld Moirax Knights - essentially Armiger variants, with a wider and more flexible loadout available.

And the Lightning Locks have rather tickled me as options go.

See, they're Range 36" Heavy 6, AP-2, Damage 1, with 6's to hit counting as two hits. A single Moirax with two of these weighs in at a comparatively smol 155 points. And Moirax inherently ignore the -1 for moving and firing Heavy Weapons.

So a pair of them kick out 24 shots for 310 points. Pretty reasonable, no?

Now, a Knight Despoiler with two Gatling Cannons (or whatever they're called) is a far, far heftier 457 points. The guns are much the same, but dish out Damage 2 for each unsaved wound. I'll provide the full stats once I get home around 7:30pm, unless some kind person can chip in on the fly. The Damage 2 helps of course, as it means it'll drop a given tank twice as fast.

In terms of resilience, the Despoiler takes far more effort to drop, and you keep all those lovely shots until it's removed from play. But, the lighter Moirax have the virtue of being two targets all the same - and the potential to have them on different sides of the board, should needs be.

So on paper, the Moirax seem like a no-brainer. And best of all, don't require bitz site trawling for that second Gatling Cannon! But I want someone to give it a proper number crunch, comparing average damage output to see if I'm right.

I'd do it myself, but that's just not my forte. And please, no percentages. I want average casualty count!

On a pure anti infantry basis the lightning locks make a lot of sense over double gatling despoiler.

Double gatling is 485 points. 24 shots without the tesla but 2 damage.

Moirax with double lightning locks is 155 so you can have 3 for 465.

So if I break it down in a 4 categories:

Toughness:

Despoiler: 24 wounds, 1 model, tough 8
Moirax: 36 wounds, 3 models, tough 7

Anti infantry:

Despoiler kills: 13.3 guardsmen/tau/cultists/guardians, 12 orks, 4.7 plaguebearers (-1 to hit), 8 marines, 8 primaris, 6 terminators

3 Moirax kills: 30 guardsmen/tau/cultists/guardians, 24 orks, 8.9 plaguebearers (-1 to hit), 16 marines, 8 primaris, 6 Terminators

Anti tank:

Despoiler: t7/8, 3+ 8 wounds, t6 3+ 12 wounds

3 Moirax: t7/8 , 3+ 8 wounds, t6 3+ 12 wounds

Mele:

Despoiler (iconoclast) kills: 8.3 marines, 8.3 guardsmen

3 Moirax (iconoclast) kills 2.6 marines, 5.5 guardsmen

So 3 Moirax outpreforms or matches unbuffed despoiler in every category except mele. Also because of tesla, overwatch and -to hit modifiers effect the Moirax less than the agc despoiler

The Despoiler benefits much more from buffs, relics, stratergems etc but I don't see that being enough to make up the gap.

It's still not quite comparable to mark of slanesh reaper chaincannons/combi bolters etc for pure anti infantry. But it's much much closer than double agc and the Moirax is more of a threat to elites and t7/8 stuff.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
How do!

Number crunchers required for this one I'm afraid.

So we've now got the rules for the Forgeworld Moirax Knights - essentially Armiger variants, with a wider and more flexible loadout available.

And the Lightning Locks have rather tickled me as options go.

See, they're Range 36" Heavy 6, AP-2, Damage 1, with 6's to hit counting as two hits. A single Moirax with two of these weighs in at a comparatively smol 155 points. And Moirax inherently ignore the -1 for moving and firing Heavy Weapons.

So a pair of them kick out 24 shots for 310 points. Pretty reasonable, no?

Now, a Knight Despoiler with two Gatling Cannons (or whatever they're called) is a far, far heftier 457 points. The guns are much the same, but dish out Damage 2 for each unsaved wound. I'll provide the full stats once I get home around 7:30pm, unless some kind person can chip in on the fly. The Damage 2 helps of course, as it means it'll drop a given tank twice as fast.

In terms of resilience, the Despoiler takes far more effort to drop, and you keep all those lovely shots until it's removed from play. But, the lighter Moirax have the virtue of being two targets all the same - and the potential to have them on different sides of the board, should needs be.

So on paper, the Moirax seem like a no-brainer. And best of all, don't require bitz site trawling for that second Gatling Cannon! But I want someone to give it a proper number crunch, comparing average damage output to see if I'm right.

I'd do it myself, but that's just not my forte. And please, no percentages. I want average casualty count!

https://spikeybits.com/2019/07/2-new-knight-armigers-40k-rules-from-forge-world.html

Why the hate for percentages? The most important thing to consider is Stratagems, are you already giving a relic and a trait to another Knight or are you considering just inducting 2 of the new Knights into your Chaos soup? Another thing to consider is melee. Knight feet hurt, with some of the Stratagems they hurt a tonne. War Dogs... They suck in combat and will get shut down if you cannot screen for them.

*A twin-LLock Armiger will kill 10 Guardsmen each turn on average. That's 15,5 pts per wound.
*A twin-LLock Armiger will do 2,66 damage to a Repulsor. That's 58 pts per wound.

*A twin-gatling Knight will kill 13,33 with shooting and up to 6,66 with melee if it gets in. That's 34 pts per wound or 23 pts per wound.
*A twin-gatling Knight will do with 7,11 damage against a Repulsor with shooting and another 5,33 with melee if it gets in. That's 64 pts per wound or 36,98 pts per wound.

The twin-LLock looks like a super solid anti-infantry unit. It's FW which makes me like them less, an OP FW unit makes people more mad than an OP GW unit and a few tournaments and groups ban them. A unit of Devastators with chaincannons do similar things, so I don't think the Moirax is going to be a must-include, but if you have exactly 1 Knight in your list then including two of these is going to be fairly cheap and very effective, they will also be easier to include in more lists I think since Devastators need an HQ. The two Chaos houses are pretty bad for the Moirax though, so it'll probably be better for Imperium units and dreadblade pacts don't seem immediately useful to me.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

See, they're Range 36" Heavy 6, AP-2, Damage 1, with 6's to hit counting as two hits. A single Moirax with two of these weighs in at a comparatively smol 155 points. And Moirax inherently ignore the -1 for moving and firing Heavy Weapons.

That is a pretty good price for the loadout. It is about 10 points more than a TLAC Razorback which is my standard chaff clearer with the same number of shots. But for the extra 10 points you get +2 Wounds, Ap-2, better movement, a 5++ and ignore the penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons. They look solid.

Totally not considering close combat. Knights should likely be in combat even with stomps most turns as well as shooting.

The downside of these guys is they are no where near as deadly in CC.

 Latro_ wrote:
Totally not considering close combat. Knights should likely be in combat even with stomps most turns as well as shooting.

The downside of these guys is they are no where near as deadly in CC.

They're fairly similar against chaff, it's just mele vs elite and armour that's the difference. Plus overwatch with the Moirax is better and because you're using 3 models you are more survivable in cc.

On the percentage thing, I just find they don’t express overall efficiency as well as ‘well, it’ll knack x MEQ or Y GEQ. Personal pref is all

And seems my initial suspicion was correct. They’re a bit of a no brainier.

Right, time to go incorporate three into a list!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, where are my manners!

Genuine thanks to all those who’ve donated their time and brains to this thread you’re all ace in my book!

Moirax gets 6 hits per Lightninglock as opposed to 8 hits per Gatling Cannon.

BS 3+ Tesla gets you, on average, one hit per shot.

Not worries! Might have talked myself into buying a couple!!

 small_gods wrote:

So 3 Moirax outpreforms or matches unbuffed despoiler in every category except mele. Also because of tesla, overwatch and -to hit modifiers effect the Moirax less than the agc despoiler

Just a small note but it's tesla+1. Necron tesla absolutely HATES -1 to hit as it neuters effect right away.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Latro_ wrote:
Totally not considering close combat. Knights should likely be in combat even with stomps most turns as well as shooting.

The downside of these guys is they are no where near as deadly in CC.

Plus no fallback and charge. Unlike regular knights these can be locked in combat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
On the percentage thing, I just find they don’t express overall efficiency as well as ‘well, it’ll knack x MEQ or Y GEQ. Personal pref is all

I would say average casualties don't tell the whole picture rather than odds of doing X casualties.

I was keen on these but the more i run the numbers tbe weaker they feel. Anti hoard is just done more pts efficiently through allies (Am or AdM) and the grav varient is to inconsistent vs the vehicles you actually want to do 4 damage to

Fair point, but I'm not one to Soup. Probably should've mentioned that in the OP

U02dah4 wrote:
I was keen on these but the more i run the numbers tbe weaker they feel. Anti hoard is just done more pts efficiently through allies (Am or AdM) and the grav varient is to inconsistent vs the vehicles you actually want to do 4 damage to

I thought the same and after facing pleanty of AdM Kastellans I thought I'd compare. A detachment of engienseer, 5x rangers, a datasmith and 3 Kastellans is 431 points. They kill on adverage 30 guardsmen (with BPP) as well and because the weapons are so similar you are nearly identical in all other domains.

Now you can throw extra cp at them much easier than the Moirax to bump up these numbers. Also you can make them -1 to hit with stygies, choose shroudpsalm to put them in cover and heal 2d3 wounds. But they are only 6 wounds each rather than 14. So although they are more boostable they are probably less durable, there are too many varibles to be clear.

For admech i would compare it to say a stygies disintergrator
9 s4 0 1d 2.666 dead guard
3d3 s6-1 2d 2.777 dead guard
D6 s7 -2 d3d 1.9444 dead guard
7.387 dead total 8.618 dead if RR1 from dominous or canticle

Moirax 10 dead guard

The moirax is 155 pts the disintegrator 111 pts so cost is in disintegrators favour.

the disintergrator is 12W 3+ with a -1 to be hit from stygies and a 2+ some turns due to cover canticle and has the advantage of some non los shooting and due to multidamage greater damage output vs multiwound.

The moirax 14 wound 3+5++ but with better CC(not good enough to be effective). With a 6+++ assuming taranis because thats what i play.

-1 to hit and 2+ some turns vs +2w 5++ and 6+++ very comparable

However shooting flexibility way outways the slight cc advantage.

I love how people go to new FW Knight is OP, then someone points out that a GW codex unit out performs it and yet people arn't complaining about the codex unit.

Moirax is also easier to hide. Sure, it's taller than the Skorpius chassis - but that chassis pretty long.

As for the HTH? Sure, they're not exactly naturals at it. But, they still hit on a 3+ (damage not allowing) with 4 S6 attacks. That can prove enough to finish off an enemy unit, giving them flexibility the Skorpius is missing.

Also, Moirax is only W12 according to the Chaos Datasheet? Which is the one I'm looking at.

Crucially, for me, with the 14" move and 36" range, I'll take that 50" bubble of anti-infantry

Debateable i find atleast in the tournsys i go to very few terrain pieces are tall enough to completely hide armigers

Yes its better in cc but it equates to 1.48 dead guard considering it cant walk out of combat and fire. most of the time its the wrong call as a half dead guard squad will still lock you in combatso i wouldnt consider it flexible

I apologise they are both 12w i overestimated the moirax

As to movement bubble with a12" move the disintegrator is only a 48" bubble but a good chunk is non los so your going to target more within that bubble plus the base is bigger than moirax so after t1 you cover more distance to measure from

U02dah4 wrote:
For admech i would compare it to say a stygies disintergrator
9 s4 0 1d 2.666 dead guard
3d3 s6-1 2d 2.777 dead guard
D6 s7 -2 d3d 1.9444 dead guard
7.387 dead total 8.618 dead if RR1 from dominous or canticle

Moirax 8.344 dead guard

The moirax is 155 pts the disintegrator 111 pts so cost is in disintegrators favour.

the disintergrator is 12W 3+ with a -1 to be hit from stygies and a 2+ some turns due to cover canticle and has the advantage of some non los shooting and due to multidamage greater damage output vs multiwound.

The moirax 14 wound 3+5++ but with better CC(not good enough to be effective). With a 6+++ assuming taranis because thats what i play.

-1 to hit and 2+ some turns vs +2w 5++ and 6+++ very comparable

However shooting flexibility way outways the slight cc advantage.

Moirax kills 10 guardsmen with shooting because of tesla. But yeah there's a few versions of similar anti infantry in both imperium and chaos soup. But there isn't anything close in either knight codex for anti infantry which is why people are excited about it.

 small_gods wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
For admech i would compare it to say a stygies disintergrator
9 s4 0 1d 2.666 dead guard
3d3 s6-1 2d 2.777 dead guard
D6 s7 -2 d3d 1.9444 dead guard
7.387 dead total 8.618 dead if RR1 from dominous or canticle

Moirax 8.344 dead guard

The moirax is 155 pts the disintegrator 111 pts so cost is in disintegrators favour.

the disintergrator is 12W 3+ with a -1 to be hit from stygies and a 2+ some turns due to cover canticle and has the advantage of some non los shooting and due to multidamage greater damage output vs multiwound.

The moirax 14 wound 3+5++ but with better CC(not good enough to be effective). With a 6+++ assuming taranis because thats what i play.

-1 to hit and 2+ some turns vs +2w 5++ and 6+++ very comparable

However shooting flexibility way outways the slight cc advantage.

Moirax kills 10 guardsmen with shooting because of tesla. But yeah there's a few versions of similar anti infantry in both imperium and chaos soup. But there isn't anything close in either knight codex for anti infantry which is why people are excited about it.

No it kills 8.3 with tezla it hits 10 but there is a wound roll

U02dah4 wrote:

 small_gods wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
For admech i would compare it to say a stygies disintergrator
9 s4 0 1d 2.666 dead guard
3d3 s6-1 2d 2.777 dead guard
D6 s7 -2 d3d 1.9444 dead guard
7.387 dead total 8.618 dead if RR1 from dominous or canticle

Moirax 8.344 dead guard

The moirax is 155 pts the disintegrator 111 pts so cost is in disintegrators favour.

the disintergrator is 12W 3+ with a -1 to be hit from stygies and a 2+ some turns due to cover canticle and has the advantage of some non los shooting and due to multidamage greater damage output vs multiwound.

The moirax 14 wound 3+5++ but with better CC(not good enough to be effective). With a 6+++ assuming taranis because thats what i play.

-1 to hit and 2+ some turns vs +2w 5++ and 6+++ very comparable

However shooting flexibility way outways the slight cc advantage.

Moirax kills 10 guardsmen with shooting because of tesla. But yeah there's a few versions of similar anti infantry in both imperium and chaos soup. But there isn't anything close in either knight codex for anti infantry which is why people are excited about it.

No it kills 8.3 with tezla it hits 10 but there is a wound roll

12 shots, 8 hits with bs 3+, 2 tesla on adverage 4 extra hits. 12 hits total. 5/6 wound. No armour save. 10 dead guardsmen.

Oh cool i had it as each =2 not +2 so its a little better still 10 isnt much better for the pts