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The new transport is very interesting. I wonder if it'll have a firing platform on it, as the back looks like there are grab bars where a marine might stand. If so, hellblasters could do great stuff... and also explode because they'd get no rerolls.

Let's hope there isn't a dumb rule like only allowing vanguard marines in there. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Aggressors didn't fit, like how terminators don't fit in a rhino.

The +1 attack on the charge thing is awesome, and not just for imperial marines. It's particularly cool for nurgle guys equipped with flails of corruption, which give you D3 attacks per attack on your profile.

It's good, and a little annoying, that there'll be a load of new releases so soon. Annoying because I'm going to the London GT in mid September, and these guys will be out just in time for me to need to do a ton of painting for it! Boo to that.

On the other hand though, I do like how my marines keep getting better. Maybe one day they'll actually be a viable army to take to tournaments. You never know.

Dudeface wrote:
Peeps need to chill, nobody has said people shouldn't get white scars armies with lots of bikes, or blood angels with jump packs.

An understandable concern is a player who paints rainbow marines and uses them as the best subfaction for 3 months, then when newer, better, marine subfactions come out, suddenly they use those rules for 3 months etc.

Having a custom chapter with custom fluff = consistency, using 5 different codex with the same models to game the system isn't right.

I’m baffled by this complaint. If I play a guy at a tournament and he’s got a wysiwyg blood angels army, what the hell do I care if he played them as dark angels three months ago? What difference does it make to me? So long as his sanguinary guard aren’t being represented by deathwing terminators or something, all is good.

This is just a complete non-issue, which is why no tournament has ever ruled out homebrew marines, or homebrew anything else.

I’ve seen people are a bit unhappy with the “nerf” to Crimson Fists. I’m not sure it’s actually that bad, for two reasons.

Firstly, repulsors (and other vehicles, I guess) now get +1 to hit against units of 10 or more. To me, that is far more impactful than whether characters get +1 to hit all the time. Repulsors have many times more guns on them than characters do, and now a plasma executioner can overcharge without any worries against big units (though it probably doesn’t need to).

Second (and to be fair this is a much smaller benefit) it means there’s less need to go for MSU. There are some good reasons to want to run big units (e.g. Vigilus strats) and now a unit of 10 intercessors can get +1 to hit against a unit of 15, rather than 20.

The units that suffer from this change are really the 3-man squads like inceptors, aggressors and eliminators. But these guys gain a lot from having bolter drill built in all the time, so it’s really fine. Instead of getting a hit on a 2 they will get an extra hit on a 6, resulting in the same result – and they still hit on 2s against units of 8+.

Ultimately it means that adding one guy to a CF unit will now need the target unit to have one extra guy in to get your bonus, whereas in the old version every marine you added required two more in the target.

Also, I was part way through scratch-building a fire raptor. I might have to pick that up again. Those quad heavy bolters are looking very good right now. On the other hand I might just go for a brigade and get a load of guys on the board. Primaris might be good enough for that to be sensible now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh. New unit preview up: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/08/07/space-marines-preview-new-unitsgw-homepage-post-1/

Las Fusil:



there's a ton of other stuff in here. Doctrines that give you an extra -1 ap on your guns are pretty major, as an across-the-board ability.

And you can get out of an impulsor after it moves. It has a capacity of 6, so (if it can carry them) flamer aggressors might actually have a way to be useful now. Can't charge after this special disembark though.

It might be more useful for letting hellblasters rapid fire on turn 1. To be honest hellblasters couldn't have asked for a better transport than this - I guess unless it let them fire from onboard.

Audustum wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Now do the Doctrines apply to the whole army or the detachment?

If it's just detachment, Shrike leading Vanguard or a Templar HQ going with Vanguard all get AP-1 Chainswords OR Pistols when they dual wield. That's fething WILD to me and makes me actually want to order the stuff I need for my Jump Pack dudes instead of my proxies.

I have been told by people in the know that the entire army has to be pure single faction to get the combat doctrines.

That makes me very happy.

Me too. We need more rules that give bonuses for single faction armies

-

I'm honestly on the opposite side of the fence. There's no reason to push that, but I do like variety so I'm not too torn up about it.

I am shedding a tear for the poor GK's though. Likely to be totally forgotten again and now severely outclassed by their 'brothers'. Especially because GW said they will not be getting any Primaris.

I’m sure you’re right, and that GKs will still be rubbish. It seems clear that GW has decided to essentially park them and not bring out any new models for the army, because it would be too difficult to make them whole new primaris kits. Deathwatch can just use the existing conversion kits so they get some primaris stuff.

Anyway on the plus side, nobody gains more from having +1A than GKs. They’ll be pretty choppy.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

beast_gts wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Agreed. It is just stupid that the only way to get some of these things is by buying a $170 boxed set. Chaos definitely has it a lot worse, IMO.

And Shadowspear is "No Longer Available" (in the UK, at least).

Of course it is. I suppose GW could release the Sprue as an ETB Obliterators and Venomcrawler.

Hmm. If I'm going to run a brigade then three suppressors are not enough. I hope they do get a proper kit. I'd be pretty surprised if they don't, eventually. But they never particularly fitted with the Vanguard thing, which this release is mainly focused on. The full kit might not come for a while - which would suck.

Ok in this image:



It looked at first like a hellblaster was stood on the impulsor, perhaps even firing off the back of it. I think he's probably in the trench though.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:
So doctrines are on vehicles then!

So ultra agressors are literally insane then? Can move and fire twice at -1 to their bolters (unless the remains stationary thing overrides this, i guess it does?)

Only a -1 if you advance them. Instead you can pop 3 in the Impulsor, move drop and fire twice.

That's unsettling, if they actually fit in the Impusor (no particular reason they wouldn't, but termies don't fit in rhinos).

I guess you can't do it on turn 1, unless there's a stratagem to let you... which is pretty likely. This makes even the flamer aggressors not awful.

 warboss wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

The look better,
Fit the Universe More
Feel more like marines

I agree that some of them look much better (basically the interceptor and phobos/reaver types) but how do they fit the universe more? As for feel more like marines, do you mean in regards to the rules? GW purposefully gave Secundus/classic marines gakky rules (like no AP on bolters) in order to differentiate Primaris. Primaris are what normal marines should have been this edition given the decades of fluff but they obviously and unsurprisingly prioritized selling the new kits.

I agree they are just much better. They are the right size for marines and they have the stats marines always should have had.

Marines are supposed to be badasses. For several editions a tactical marine with a bolt gun was nothing more than a scoring unit token. These are meant to be GW’s signature model - probably the first thing anyone thinks of when they think of the company. Now they have an actual value in the game.

The mini marines were great kits when they came out, but that was decades ago. It’s not good enough to have armour that a person (no mater how enhanced) could never fit inside any more.

I do understand the nostalgia, and not wanting to bin companies worth of plastic, but it’s impossible to argue that the old models are better.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:


Looks like chapter master is a unit and not a stratagem again.

Why would you think that? The current Halo states "ULTRAMARINES CAPTAIN or CHAPTER MASTER only." despite the CHAPTER MASTER being a Stratagem.

Just a thought but I think a chapter master should be either a separate unit or an upgrade for a captain that costs points - not CPs. After all, why would an army commanded by a chapter master have fewer CPs to spend than one led by a captain?

Extra damage in melee is potentially awesome, for the right unit, but I agree it's not quite as good as firing like you were standing still.

White Scar captain on bike with thunder hammer could be fun. Lots of attacks for 4 damage. And things like power fists in Intercessor squads become about 50% more effective on the charge. They're actually a decent threat now - for their price - with the extra attack as well.

Kor’sarro Khan is also very respectable. Against characters he'll have 6 attacks, rerolling to hit and wound (probably on a 3+), each doing a rerollable D3+1 damage. Presumably he's losing the option of riding a bike though.

The key thing I, a non-White Scar player, take from this is that everyone's getting one of these extra doctrine-related things. Wonder what my Crimson Fist one will be. Hope it's not just vs orks!

Some takes from watching a review:

Intercessor sergeants can now have thunder hammers. Assault bolters really are 3 shots now and still only 1 point. Stalkers still seem to be free – but look even more stupid now eliminators exist.

The Vigilus stratagems to let the various different bolt rifles fire at RF2, auto hit at close range, or snipe characters, are all in there. They work on any intercessors – not just veterans. They cost 2CPs though, or 3 to let stalkers shoot characters. You can make squads into veterans too, at 1 CP or 2 for squads of 6+. And there’s one to let a unit fire as if it was standing still.

Chaplains might be worth taking. They’re cheap and they now do something kind of new. And they aren’t terrible at fighting.

Reivers are unchanged. Seriously. Aggressors and inceptors both got an extra wound and aggressors have 3 attacks, so they are far better. Poor reivers.

Burning blade is now D2, which makes it vastly better – and thereby makes a lot of Primaris guys who can only have a power sword better. A Primaris captain with the burning blade is nasty, and even a lieutenant with one is decent.

Incursor is 19. Infiltrator 22. Intercessor still 17. I can actually see a strong case for taking Incursors instead of infiltrators. They lose the 12” deep strike bubble but they still get to deploy forward, and cost 3ppm less.

Impulsor 75. The guns for this are kind of lame but it can have a 4++, so it will. I thought maybe people would be able to fire out but they can’t. I expect to see this thing’s points go up, because right now it’s very low in my opinion. Can't transport aggressors though, which is a big deal. No catapulting flamer guys miles forward.

Invictor 90 – but wargear adds a lot to that I think. I think the fist might be free but you’ve got the two ironhail stubbers, heavy bolter, frag launcher and the main gun to pay for. Blurry so I couldn’t see that price. That said, these guys look fantastic to me – loads of dakka (15+D6 shots) on a thing that infiltrates and has a 10” move. Fantastic and well worth the ~140-150 that I think it’ll cost.

There’s a fun strat for if a land raider or repulsor dies. It can explode or fire a gun with its undamaged BS. Revenge!

I’m kind of amazed they didn’t fix reivers, given how many other toys they gave us. That unit remains absolute trash tier. It's not really a problem because I don't like them anyway, but it's a bit lame.

The impulsor can’t carry Gravis guys. As such it’s an excellent transport for hellblasters, but nobody else - because nothing much else needs one.

It’s cheap but it’s not free. A 97 point vehicle with a 4++ but only armed with two storm bolters still isn’t much of a threat to anyone. It’s definitely useful but far from game breaking.

The invictor is pretty cool though. Lots of dakka and awesome deployment options, with a 10” move. Apparently it clocks in around 131 points with all its gear, which is pretty good. I’m sure they’ll die, but they have to be dealt with, taking the heat off other stuff.

Reivers still seem bad at 16 points. I guess there’s a case for a unit to deep strike onto objectives, and at 90 points for that they aren’t awful - just a big sad. Intercessors are just so much better. The new sneaky troops are vastly better at the reivers’ actual job, thanks to forward deployment, decent guns and fancy knives.

In future I think I might well take a primaris lieutenant with the burning blade. It makes him a pretty serious melee threat, where now he’s basically irrelevant.

A chaplain is looking like maybe a better third hq than a librarian. Not sure on this one. I’m not blown away by the litanies to be honest, but he’s pretty cheap.

The nerf to guilliman’s wound rerolls is pretty major. He’s always been used to reroll wounds of low-ish strength weapons that need 5s to wound most stuff.

Now you’re not getting anything from Guilliman that you can’t from normal HQs for about half the cost - and without needing to fit in a lord of war somehow.

So it’s a pretty major nerf, combined with major buffs elsewhere. I expect the end result will be that people run other chapters more.

Dudeface wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Yes and no.

People ran Guilliman with Repulsors or Scout Bikes, Scout Snipers, etc.. re-rolling the low strength stuff and fishing for mortal wounds. That build is probably dead.


But people also ran Guilliman with, say, triple-Krast Crusaders or some such, no other Ultramarine even in sight. Just for the Advance & charge & Re-roll 1s buff, and for his insane cc. damage output.



The latter got a lot better with Guilliman fighting twice, and can I see Guilliman be very worth it in a Marine list that is something of a hybrid of the above two: A more aggressive Marine list that moves up, uses the Guilliman ranged re-rolls as a bonus turn 1, maybe 2, but is more geared towards getting Guilliman stuck in there, maybe with a Gallant or so, maybe with just more close combat Marines. etc..

Remeber gallant means no combat doctrines.

If the end result is that Guilliman ends up pushing forward to chop things up, rather than standing in a gunline, then I'm all for it.

The elites slot feels very busy now. You've got Aggressors competing with the Invictor, and you likely still want an ancient a lot of the time. I don't like reivers but a unit held back to drop on an objective could be worth its points, as they'd be fairly hard to shift late game.

At 2k I'm actually considering a brigade. Vague shape of the army is captain, Lieutenant and chaplain, 4x10 intercessors, 2x5 incursors, Aggressors and ancient for elites, supporessors for FA and eliminators for HS. It fits into 2k, more or less. I quite like the idea of effectively a Primaris horde of roughly 80 models, most of which are obsec.

The alternative is a repulsor-based list. It looks like repulsor executioners with squads of 3 Aggressors inside will be a pretty good option. I think aggressors are nasty enough that now they'll attract a lot of hate - but there's always the option of just taking loads of them. Having 3 wounds each instead of 2 is just fantastic.

Auto rifle intercessors seem like a pretty awesome troop unit now. Each guy almost has an assault heavy bolter now, with the tactical doctrine running. I can see these guys causing havoc and I particularly like how they don't require any CP nonsense to work. They just chuck out 3 shots each at 24" and are hard to get rid of. I'm not sure if I'd always take them over normal rifles, but I think there's a strong case for going half and half now - where before you'd only ever take normal rifles. Auto rifle guys have close to the number of shots per point you get from aggressors now, in a troop choice with a lot more bodies, but of course they lack the option to fire twice and have no power fists.

Whatever happens I've got a ton of stuff I'd need to paint for the London GT, if taking this army. Probably more than I can do. Tricky.

Yeah I'm thinking about the tactical doctirine, giving them AP-1. Admittedly that also gives normal rifles -2.

But 3 shots is a lot. I'd rather have 3 shots at 24" than 1 at 30, even if it meant sometimes missing out that shot.

Normal rifles do have access to the rapid fire stratagem though. Going to 4 shots each at -2 ap is definitely enough to warrant taking at least one unit with those I think. That's proper dakka. The auto rifle thing of auto-hitting within 12" is nowhere near as good.

Sadly I'm pretty sure stalkers remain rubbish in comparison. I guess you could take a squad with them to snipe characters but that's pricey on CPs, and eliminators exist. I could well be wrong about this though. 10 guys with D2 sniper rifles would be scary, and they aren't expensive. AP-3 on turn 1 with the devastator discipline too. Actually that really isn't bad.

I'm wondering if I can use spare bits from the new kits to turn the Reiver bodies I've got into any of the cool new stuff. Depends if they come with multiple of the bolt guns or just 5 with alternate scopes - which seems more likely.

I did use the body of one to make a standing eliminator using most of the bits from a shadowspear one. That worked ok.

Though rubbish, this isn't surprising. Presumably it's because the Reiver one doesn't come with a grav chute, having accidentally swapped back packs with the inwhatever lieutenant.

A Reiver lieutenant sort of isn't awful. Scarier than a normal lieutenant, but hard to actually argue in favour of. Not exactly bad, but certainly unclear what the actual point of him is. You mostly want a lieutenant stood around his own lines buffing stuff, don't you?

Edit, here he is. Classic tripping over, grav-chute-free pose:

Notable that the lieutenant from Shadowspear isn't available, as he's not on his own sprue. I actually douubt we'll see him again.

In general those previews are a disappointment. I'd been expecting rules for another chapter or two. And there are quite a lot of models not yet with a release date. I guess they're spacing them out for some reason.

Edit: Small thing, but the guy driving the Invictor has controls that look kind of useless for it. I know people hate the baby carrier but at least it's got a vaguely believable control system. I don't think you can say that of the Invictor.

Overall I don't hate the thing but I definitely don't love it. The other releases are better though.

Voss wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
Notable that the lieutenant from Shadowspear isn't available, as he's not on his own sprue. I actually douubt we'll see him again.

In general those previews are a disappointment. I'd been expecting rules for another chapter or two. And there are quite a lot of models not yet with a release date. I guess they're spacing them out for some reason.

Production capacity, almost certainly (keep in mind that warcry would've taken a lot of that capacity with a ne game with 6 entirely new warband sprues, plus terrain plus critters, plus ramping up some production of the other two terrain kits). Also the brand new enforcers were squeezed in here as well. Side order of spacing them out so budgets don't feel too overwhelmed in one go.

Given that they've shown the models off already, I feel fairly certain that the 23rd of August is going to be more marines. It should wrap with the incursors/infiltrators, tank and eliminators. Three kits is manageable.

Production issues makes sense for the models but not for the books.

I'm basically just panicking that my Crimson Fists won't have their rules in time for the LGT. But I can just be lazy and take the knights I've already painted in that scenario. Not the end of the world.

Suppressors are the same. They do benefit from devastator doctrine on turn one, if you like that sort of thing. Downside is they can’t be bought anywhere outside shadowspear.

Definitely a buff. I could see myself using the banner, the Fist of Vengeance for my Captain (if it exists??) and the burning blade or some other thing on a lieutenant.

The flexibility is actually really nice. I could imagine giving the lieutenant the armour indominatus if he needs to stay alive for a mission, the relic of Gathalmor, or maybe even a gun.

BrianDavion wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
Definitely a buff. I could see myself using the banner, the Fist of Vengeance for my Captain (if it exists??) and the burning blade or some other thing on a lieutenant.

The flexibility is actually really nice. I could imagine giving the lieutenant the armour indominatus if he needs to stay alive for a mission, the relic of Gathalmor, or maybe even a gun.

you'll still only be able to put one relic on a character

Yes of course, but you can decide what to give them (if anything) each game, depending on what you're up against. Personally I've had quite a lot of use out of the Crimson Fist relic bolt rifle - which may or may not exist right now.

Soneone on b+c ousted this doc of all the points, and changes from before. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vZnKuZarvBT17JeRdRcHPWkI8fq4770HrbBosCh8JCo/htmlview#gid=0

Apparently assault centurions now have 4 wounds, 3 attacks and cost 52 points each with two flamers. You get a ton of dakka out of these, then a squad of 3 seems to have 13 S10 ap-4 D3 attacks with no hit modifier. They do 17.33 wounds to a knight on the charge, without using rerolls.

So here’s a thought. What about a land raider (lol?) with three of these and maybe Pedro in? Or just loads of them. Crusaders with squads of five in, that sort of thing.

X078 wrote:
So is the Impulsor worth it?
I am probably missing something but it seems rather redundant with all the new Vanguard units outside of transporting Intercessors/Hellblasters? I'm thinking why even bother with it when i can just take a few Repulsor Executioners or something else for AT for mono SM?

Basically it’s for hellblasters. It stops the baddies shooting you dead on turn one, then you can move a massive distance before rapid firing.

I have a feeling they might have planned for it to be open topped with guys firing off the deck, but that would have been horrendous.

It’s interesting though. People (other than me) have been demanding a primaris rhino forever. Now it’s arrived and nobody is that fussed. The uses for an unarmed box are slightly limited, especially single so many primaris don’t need/can’t use it.

I actually think it’ll be a handy thing to have bobbing around against some people, as it’s cheap and fast enough to use to block movement or assault random things. You can soak overwatch for a smash captain or just try and lock down broadsides, for example. Not sure that warrants actually buying some.

Next week's releases for marines according to WHC are:

*Drumroll*

Nothing. Aaarg!