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Made in nz
Chosen Baal Sec Youngblood




New to Dark Eldar and wanting to build a competitive list after playing blood angels for the last year and only really having a fight phase.

So as the title suggests, this list would come in waves. First turn the reavers (with T5) move their 26, the Venoms clear the screen allowing the bikes to tie alpha shooting units up. Then opponent has to deal with them, at -1 to hit to just soak up fire.

Meanwhile talos and wyches move to mid board. Then my turn 2, wyches run in to tie up units, ideally while Talos also charge and/or hold mid board.

While this is going on, ravagers are pounding the alpha units from the backline and Venoms are providing clearance and board control.

Idea is to force my opponents target priority, allowing me to play the mission.

Keen for thoughts!? And improvements to the list. Tactical advice about how best to use units also appreciated.

I have some time before 2 tournaments I'm aiming to play in so can get a few new units if req. Might not have the money for triple razorwing tho...


Black Heart Battalion

Archon - 72 - WL, Writ, Laberinthine cunning

Archon - 72 - venom blade

Kabalites - 47 - Blaster x3 (141pt)

Ravager - 125 - Disintegrators x3 (375pt)

Venom - 65 - x7 (455pt)

.

Red Grief Battalion

Succubus - 55 - WL trait - hyperswift - shardnet

Succubus - 55 - shardnet

Wyches - 45 - shardnet x3 (135)

Reavers (10) - 190 - just splinter rifles

.

Prophets of Flesh Patrol

Haemonculus - 70 - WL trait - soothsayer - vexator mask

Wracks (9) - 81

Talos (3) - 294 - Chainflail, scalpels, haywire
   
Made in us
Lethal Lhamean






Venice, Florida

I like a lot of basic core concepts in your list, your individual unit builds look very nice and you aren't committing the sin I see a lot of players do in packing on needless wargear to the unit beyond what it needs to do its job.

The issue I see with the list is twofold;

My first question is; what are you expecting the Wyches to really do? You're basically spending 435 points to get some CP and to tie up units. None of those Wych units are going to get much work done, and that relegates them to kind of wuss slapping and hugging units while hoping they don't die.

It would be cheaper to bring a Kabal Battalion (which could be +5 Blasters if you're willing to slap them on Archons) and even some more Venoms. That would be far more shooting capability, and the Kabs and/or Venoms could assault and hug stuff too.

So the only question is how effective you think the 10 bikes will be when it comes to getting through a screen breach and managing to tie up units. Yes, this can be a decent strategy, but when your shooting is relatively tepid, and your Talos hammer is likely to land on Turn 3 I'm not sure how valuable it is, presuming it's even able to be pulled off effectively against a given enemy list.

The second major concern I have is, since you're building a competitive list, how do you plan to deal with Knights and/or mech gunlines? You've got three Blasters, the Talos, and the Ravagers and this encompasses your entire collection of weaponry that is going to give a tank or Knight any concern at all.

At 2000 points, the odds to see 3+ Knights or 8+ tanks strikes me as very high, and your list doesn't likely have the ability to even bracket a single Knight Turn 1, and is probably looking at 1-2 dead tanks in a given turn. I also see Custodes as an issue (who would likely welcome the Wyches rushing in) though your poison shots might be able to drown them in saves.

So the question here is - what is your competitive tourney scene like? My local meta has plenty of Knights, and lots of gear heads. My 2000 point list generally has 21 Dissies, 6-8 Lances/Blasters, and 4-8 Haywire rifles - to compare your numbers are 9, 3, 4 - my list can generally knock out 1 Knight with confidence each turn, and my list has over twice the shooting that can hurt Knights as yours does.)

So are Knights or lots of mech something you'll see? Or is your local meta very infantry heavy? If you're infantry heavy some of these concerns matter less (though I still might drop Wyches for Shredder armed Kabal...) but if you can expect to see heavy armor I see your list just not causing enough damage to make all the points in tie up units worth it - and suggest you need less tie up and more damage dealing.

My thoughts,
Thor.

Thor665's Dark Eldar Tactica - A comprehensive guide to all things DE (Totally finished...till I update bits and pieces!)
Thor665's battle reports DE vs. assorted armies.
Splintermind: The Dark Eldar Podcast It's a podcast, about Dark Eldar.
Dashofpepper wrote:Thor665 is actually a Dark Eldar god, manifested into electronic bytes and presented here on dakkadakka to bring pain and destruction to all lesser races. Read his tactica, read his forums posts, and when he deigns to critique or advise you directly, bookmark it and pay attention.
 
   
Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

Coming in waves is a newbie concept.
Target saturation is key as is alpha strike if you are able to do so.
In my GK army, deep striking, shunting, and gate of infinity provide together about 200 shots (mostly storm bolters) in round 2, while the army tries to hide best in round 1.

Former moderator 40kOnline

Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!

Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."

Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss 
   
Made in nz
Chosen Baal Sec Youngblood




Hey thanks for the really detailed response! Yes I have been a bit worried about anti-tank after running the math some more on the dizzies and while my local meta doesn't have a lot of nights regularly, people do bring them out for tournaments.

I think your point about the wyches is a good one. I hadn't thought about it that way, spending 450pts just to tie stuff up and not do damage. This far the bikes have been effective at getting in with screen clearance support where req from the venoms, but against knights they wont last long in combat, though I could tie one up for a turn possibly.

I've tried getting 21 Dizzies in a list but can't do it without taking 6 raiders, is this right? 3 ravagers, 3 razorwings and 6 raiders? Is this what's in your list?

I'm a bit limited with what models I have, but do have a few old-school raiders and a bunch more kabalites I could repaint, plus could get a couple more venoms. Will have a think and post an updated list.

BTW, are you the Thor from Splinetermind? If so, I've just started listening it's great!
   
Made in ca
Lethal Lhamean






Venice, Florida

Eardrumms wrote:
I've tried getting 21 Dizzies in a list but can't do it without taking 6 raiders, is this right? 3 ravagers, 3 razorwings and 6 raiders? Is this what's in your list?

It is indeed, I find the mobility and over saturation to be quite useful.

Eardrumms wrote:
I'm a bit limited with what models I have, but do have a few old-school raiders and a bunch more kabalites I could repaint, plus could get a couple more venoms. Will have a think and post an updated list.

It also sounds like your local meta won't exactly require as many Dissies as I bring, for better or for worse my local area really loves Knights, so I see them a *lot* and build specifically to deal with them.
Venoms are an excellent tool, and have a lot of wonderful advantages to them, and in large enough numbers can become a very serious issue to certain armies.

Eardrumms wrote:
BTW, are you the Thor from Splinetermind? If so, I've just started listening it's great!

I am indeed, very happy to hear you like the show!

Thor665's Dark Eldar Tactica - A comprehensive guide to all things DE (Totally finished...till I update bits and pieces!)
Thor665's battle reports DE vs. assorted armies.
Splintermind: The Dark Eldar Podcast It's a podcast, about Dark Eldar.
Dashofpepper wrote:Thor665 is actually a Dark Eldar god, manifested into electronic bytes and presented here on dakkadakka to bring pain and destruction to all lesser races. Read his tactica, read his forums posts, and when he deigns to critique or advise you directly, bookmark it and pay attention.
 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut



Ottawa

Eardrumms wrote:
This far the bikes have been effective at getting in with screen clearance support where req from the venoms, but against knights they wont last long in combat, though I could tie one up for a turn possibly.

Away from books right now, but I'm pretty sure Imperial Knights can shoot after disengaging.

Tying down an enemy unit with Reavers has merit, but 10 of them are too much of an expenditure and can go down quickly in the face of a determined melee assault. I would go with the minimum of 3 and without any expectation of tying down a unit for more than one round. It can be enough to make a big difference, depending on what you choose to target. By the time the enemy unit can shoot, you may have cleared out enough of the other big threats to allocate all of your attention to it.

Blast pistols and blasters are definitely a good investment for Archons, given their 2+ BS. The blast pistol may have a pitiful range, but its wielder still has a perfectly respectable threat range of 14 inches. Don't forget to use your pistol in melee.
   
Made in nz
Chosen Baal Sec Youngblood




-Guardsman- wrote:
Eardrumms wrote:
This far the bikes have been effective at getting in with screen clearance support where req from the venoms, but against knights they wont last long in combat, though I could tie one up for a turn possibly.

Away from books right now, but I'm pretty sure Imperial Knights can shoot after disengaging.

Tying down an enemy unit with Reavers has merit, but 10 of them are too much of an expenditure and can go down quickly in the face of a determined melee assault. I would go with the minimum of 3


Yes they can, but if I can wrap the knight then it wouldn't be able to fall back over the bikes. I think this would be pretty situational tho, the positioning would have to be optimal for it to actually work given the size of all the bases.

Hmm maybe I could go for 3 units of 3 - that would make an outrider and I could drop the wyches and go for more kabalites like Thor suggested.

Yep I haven't really worked out how to use my other archon (that doesn't just sit with the ravagers). I have tried pushing up field but he can't just redeploy the way the venoms can, and I'm torn as I don't want him to just get caught in the open. However, if he doesn't kill anything then just a waste of points anyway. Hmmm.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Los Angeles

Eardrumms wrote:
Red Grief Battalion
Succubus - 55 - WL trait - hyperswift - shardnet
Succubus - 55 - shardnet
Wyches - 45 - shardnet x3 (135)
Reavers (10) - 190 - just splinter rifles

15 girls on foot or is that 3 units in venoms? And if the girls are in venoms, how are the succubi getting around? Sure, they're characters and get *some* shooting protection, but not having a ride, they'll get behind. Do you have one venom that hosts the archons and succubi? (7 venoms, 6 for troops ... so, yeah?).

I suggest using one of your old raiders. 9 girls + succubus. The raider runs interference by charging a target and absorbing overwatch *or* you have the 2" extra move succubus do an end run through LOS blocking terrain, or she can likely survive overwatch from mildly shooty targets. Keep a Shardnet/Imapler combo in each unit.

My girls' battalion:
Succubus archite glaive (though thinking impaler's 2 wounds is a better idea) +2" move
Succubus glaive & agoniser (for daemon princes, etc) +1T
Girls x9 +1S 'Net & Imp
Girls x9 +1A 'Net & Imp
Girls x8 +1WS (this leaves 2 spots in the raider for archons to deploy in) 'Net & Imp

Further, Red Grief is far inferior to Cursed Blade. Power from Pain's Turn 2 bonus makes Red Grief's reroll charge/advance trait redundant. With Cursed Blade, *all* girls get +1S which is good in the land of many things being T4, even better wounding T3 66% of the time. Morale is only one lost model on failure. This means you can go with some S5 girls (that combat drug) if the enemy is Double Stuff marines (primarchs ) or +1A for more horde control. Hyperstym Backlash makes those girls swing a *lot* of dice. I'd trade the points on your reavers for more girls. I run 27 girls and 2 succubi, with a Black Heart battalion supplying 3 raiders. I find that 9 girls can actually wipe out 10 guardsmen in one go (shard-netting the unit next to it) or dusting 10 SM in 2 rounds (with succubus help) of swinging, ready to assault another the next player turn.

Reavers. I play in tourneys all year. No one runs 'em. They're too soft and not a lot of hit to them for the points, especially with no upgrades. Yes, all elves are soft and easily killed, glass hammer, etc, but reavers don't have the girls' 4++ in h2h, a vehicle to hide in, nor a cult's higher T (yes, I know they're T4 and 2 Ws and 4+ save). I suggest dropping them (though you have stated they're a key unit, and possibly a favorite ) in favor of raiders and bigger units of wyches.

*If* you wish to keep them, then I suggest beef them up with the grav talons and caltrops. Mortal Wounds are one of 8e's good weapons, so spending a few points to be able to deal 'em out is a good thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eardrumms wrote:
Yep I haven't really worked out how to use my other archon (that doesn't just sit with the ravagers). I have tried pushing up field but he can't just redeploy the way the venoms can, and I'm torn as I don't want him to just get caught in the open. However, if he doesn't kill anything then just a waste of points anyway. Hmmm.

Archon #2 is a bit of dead weight, huh?

I give him the Helm of Spite when opponents have a psycher. He also gets a huskblade, which I think has better heft and payoff than a venom blade, and a blast pistol, as he is a h2h critter, and has situational use to character snipe/smack with blast pistol and HB in h2h. Overall, I consider him the least important of units since #1 babysits ravagers with the Writ of the Living Muse.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/13 18:08:32


"You can bring any cheesy unit you want. If you lose. Casey taught me that." -Tim S.

"I'm gonna follow Casey; he knows where the beer's at!" -Blackmoor, BAO 2013

Quitting Daemon Princes, Bob and Fred - a 40k webcomic 
   
Made in ca
Lethal Lhamean






Venice, Florida

 Brothererekose wrote:
I give him the Helm of Spite when opponents have a psycher. He also gets a huskblade, which I think has better heft and payoff than a venom blade, and a blast pistol, as he is a h2h critter, and has situational use to character snipe/smack with blast pistol and HB in h2h. Overall, I consider him the least important of units since #1 babysits ravagers with the Writ of the Living Muse.

I think this is a very smart way to use your 2nd Archon and would 2nd the advocacy to the OP.
I use mine much the same, he usually pops out midfield to help Warriors that have been force disembarked from vehicles and can serve as a counter charge tool against a reasonable variety of opponents while otherwise providing your forward forces some re-roll tech. So much of DE benefits by getting into midrange, and I rarely find use/time to bring my Ravagers and their Archon forward, so the spare one fills that role.

Thor665's Dark Eldar Tactica - A comprehensive guide to all things DE (Totally finished...till I update bits and pieces!)
Thor665's battle reports DE vs. assorted armies.
Splintermind: The Dark Eldar Podcast It's a podcast, about Dark Eldar.
Dashofpepper wrote:Thor665 is actually a Dark Eldar god, manifested into electronic bytes and presented here on dakkadakka to bring pain and destruction to all lesser races. Read his tactica, read his forums posts, and when he deigns to critique or advise you directly, bookmark it and pay attention.
 
   
Made in nz
Chosen Baal Sec Youngblood




 Brothererekose wrote:


I suggest using one of your old raiders. 9 girls + succubus. The raider runs interference by charging a target and absorbing overwatch *or* you have the 2" extra move succubus do an end run through LOS blocking terrain, or she can likely survive overwatch from mildly shooty targets. Keep a Shardnet/Imapler combo in each unit.



This looks interesting I think I'll try it. Need to get some more wyches first!


 Brothererekose wrote:


Further, Red Grief is far inferior to Cursed Blade. Power from Pain's Turn 2 bonus makes Red Grief's reroll charge/advance trait redundant. With Cursed Blade, *all* girls get +1S which is good in the land of many things being T4, even better wounding T3 66% of the time. Morale is only one lost model on failure. This means you can go with some S5 girls (that combat drug) if the enemy is Double Stuff marines (primarchs ) or +1A for more horde control. Hyperstym Backlash makes those girls swing a *lot* of dice. I'd trade the points on your reavers for more girls. I run 27 girls and 2 succubi, with a Black Heart battalion supplying 3 raiders. I find that 9 girls can actually wipe out 10 guardsmen in one go (shard-netting the unit next to it) or dusting 10 SM in 2 rounds (with succubus help) of swinging, ready to assault another the next player turn.

Reavers. I play in tourneys all year. No one runs 'em. They're too soft and not a lot of hit to them for the points, especially with no upgrades. Yes, all elves are soft and easily killed, glass hammer, etc, but reavers don't have the girls' 4++ in h2h, a vehicle to hide in, nor a cult's higher T (yes, I know they're T4 and 2 Ws and 4+ save). I suggest dropping them (though you have stated they're a key unit, and possibly a favorite ) in favor of raiders and bigger units of wyches.

*If* you wish to keep them, then I suggest beef them up with the grav talons and caltrops. Mortal Wounds are one of 8e's good weapons, so spending a few points to be able to deal 'em out is a good thing.



Yea i know the mathhammer makes +1S the most effective for damage output, but with the advance + charge they're just so fast it's hard to give up. Understand the RR is duplicate on turn 2 but still like the extra movement. Will give cursed blade a go when i can run bigger units i think.

On the reavers, part is cos i like them (had 10 from when i collected DE when i was like 12 and just getting back in 20 years later). I've found that making them T5 makes them a lot harder for the opponent to shift, but then again i've only played 4 games with them. Also haven't tried them in a competitive setting just FLG group and I know they're not in the meta at all at the moment. They are expensive for a distraction unit, but you're right there's better stuff out there. Will get some more wyches and go for them + raiders I think, which will give me more dizzies (to Thor's point above).

 Brothererekose wrote:


I give him the Helm of Spite when opponents have a psycher. He also gets a huskblade, which I think has better heft and payoff than a venom blade, and a blast pistol, as he is a h2h critter, and has situational use to character snipe/smack with blast pistol and HB in h2h. Overall, I consider him the least important of units since #1 babysits ravagers with the Writ of the Living Muse.


This sounds good I'm going to try it in my game tomorrow.

Thanks again to you and Thor for the advice it's great!

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/14 09:56:35


 
   
Made in ca
Lethal Lhamean






Venice, Florida

Eardrumms wrote:
Yea i know the mathhammer makes +1S the most effective for damage output, but with the advance + charge they're just so fast it's hard to give up. Understand the RR is duplicate on turn 2 but still like the extra movement. Will give cursed blade a go when i can run bigger units i think.

My little personal obsessions require me to note this again;

+1 Str is *not* the most effective for damage (unless the target is T6-7) in all other situations +1 Attack is superior.
Here's the mathhammer for you to review;

20 Wyches +1 Attack Vs. GEQ
60 attacks = 40 hits = 20 Wounds = 13.333 after saves

20 Wyches +1 Str Vs. GEQ
40 attacks = 26.666 hits = 17.777 wounds = 11.85 after saves.

Ah, I hear you say, but that's vs. Guardsmen, what about versus something with a 4 Toughness, like SPHESS MAHREENS!?! Surely there the ability to wound on a 4+ versus 5+ will make a massive difference, yeah?
Okay, let's look at that;

20 Wyches +1 Attack Vs. MEQ
60 attacks = 40 hits = 13.333 Wounds = 4.444 after saves

20 Wyches +1 Str Vs. MEQ
40 attacks = 26.666 hits = 13.333 wounds = 4.444 after saves.

So, against GEQ they're better, against Marines they're equal. The only place +1 Attack fades is against T6-7 which is a fairly small window of failure. Everywhere else they perform as well or better than the Str option. This also applies to your drugs - getting +2 Attacks is better than +2 Str basically all the time (though two squads with +1 to both are generally more reliable since otherwise your opponent could dakka down the more dangerous option, so I do tend to match them up like that when I do it )

That said, Cursed Blade has some other advantages, like the morale thing, that are quite potent and it's not always a discussion of absolute damage. If you're running multiple 10 man Wyche squads in Raiders, I'd say take Strife all day every day, but if you're going with one big mob (or multiple big mobs) then it starts being worth it to sacrifice your damage output to protect yourself from morale damage.

The point of Red Grief (which, incidentally, is my favorite Cult to take in competitive lists) is all about either alpha assault and/or having a beefed up Succubus with the Blood Glaive. As long s your core purpose is to get off assaults on Turn 1 or to have a Succubus with a Blood Glaive they are a great Cult choice, otherwise they're fairly mediocre as though most of the Cult powers become useless as the PfP chart advances, theirs becomes useless the quickest.

Thor665's Dark Eldar Tactica - A comprehensive guide to all things DE (Totally finished...till I update bits and pieces!)
Thor665's battle reports DE vs. assorted armies.
Splintermind: The Dark Eldar Podcast It's a podcast, about Dark Eldar.
Dashofpepper wrote:Thor665 is actually a Dark Eldar god, manifested into electronic bytes and presented here on dakkadakka to bring pain and destruction to all lesser races. Read his tactica, read his forums posts, and when he deigns to critique or advise you directly, bookmark it and pay attention.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Los Angeles

Thor,
You're right. Cult of Strife's (Red Grief is the advance and charge cult) +1A will out perform Cursed Blade's +1S, on that first swing.

But the fundamental problem is the cascade of consequences on that first swing:
a. totally destroying the target unit
b. leaving the wyches exposed to the enemy's shooting phase

How do you reconcile this undesirable outcome?

Sure, one tries to assault close to a second enemy unit, get the ShardNet within 3" to close in on activation or consolidation and that nearly assures the girls staying in a fight during the enemy's shooting phase.

But if there isn't a second enemy unit of infantry within range, one needs to use finesse. Feathering that gas pedal, that is, making sure you have enough girls able to swing, and *not* over do it? That's tough to do (in my experience ), especially with 4 or 5 attacks, times 8 or 9 girls. How do you calculate to not kill them all, allowing for a really great roll of dice or watching the unit disappear anyway, having failed morale? Tough to do.

And in trying to engage *just* the right amount of models, it seems to me that the +1A is wasted.

Because, unless they're charged, the Strife's +1A doesn't happen in the following fight phase. An opponent can charge something else nearby (situational) an then consolidate in, denying the CoS. +1A. And it has been my experience, that it is crucial to wyches' survival, to not swing too hard against a single unit, not having a second one to stay engaged, keep them safe from shooting.

It just seems that I often *don't* want a massive set of killing dice in that first fight phase. For that reason, the +1A only kicking in on the charge or being charged, I don't think it's preferable over Cursed Blade.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/23 04:08:18


"You can bring any cheesy unit you want. If you lose. Casey taught me that." -Tim S.

"I'm gonna follow Casey; he knows where the beer's at!" -Blackmoor, BAO 2013

Quitting Daemon Princes, Bob and Fred - a 40k webcomic 
   
Made in ca
Lethal Lhamean






Venice, Florida

@Brothererekose

A lot of questions there, and this is probably going beyond the initial point of the thread, but here's my (somewhat) abbreviated thoughts;

First off, if you're so scared of wiping out a unit - shouldn't you be actively choosing Red Grief instead of Cult of Strife *or* Cursed Blade in order to do the least damage possible while being as fast as possible at all times to maximize ability to wrap up a unit as you desire? (I understand this is a bit of a straw man, but I just want to at least agree that the eventual goal *is* to kill the enemy unit, the desire to do it in their phase to maximize your squad's suitability is excellent, but it's not always the full goal of the unit).

So, then we get to our second conundrum - doing max damage while staying alive.

I will say, for myself, my usual goal is to avoid assaulting in to only a single unit if at all possible - because doing so massively increases the chances you'll wipe said unit and get shot at. So if your Wyches are hitting multiple units, clearly the general goal is to bubble wrap something in one unit (hopefully via consolidate so you aren't even allowed to swing at it, and can just slide a few girls in to lock one model - and if you're obligated to swing at least going with the bare minimum you're obligated to swing with - which is more dicey, but at least you'll have the net there to hopefully still trap them).

You then want to be able to utterly remove the other unit - because since you've locked one, the best way to maximize Wych survival at that point is to have zero swings coming from one of the two squads - ergo, maximizing your ability to kill a unit then becomes a marked advantage for your squad.

If it's impossible to hit more than one unit, well, then you're pretty much obligated to try to play the positioning game. Use your charge move to not actually base up too much, and count on less swings, and if you do this wisely I see little value in minimizing your squads' damage output to help with this situation because;

1. We're fast enough (and are generally appearing through DS or a Flying transport) that it really shouldn't come up too much.

2. If it is coming up, you're probably charging into a screening unit anyway, and it will probably help your 2nd assault wave if said screen is just wiped out anyway - and if you don't have a second assault wave and only have the one assault tool well, then it probably doesn't matter if the opponent takes time to kill them, remove the screen and charge with some Kab squads if you need to desperately tie anything up next round.

I also generally don't mind Wyches receiving a charge, their job is to bog stuff down, so I invite counter charges, I don't have nets because I want things to not be tied up with me - and if your opponent is able to consolidate into your Wyches that seems odd, because my first question would tend to be, consolidate off of what? Generally Wyches should be alone except for other close combat threats, which if they're being steamrolled losing out on your +1 attack is the least of your issues, or it was a Raider used to absorb overwatch, which if it happens often enough to make you rethink your build can probably be solved by positioning your Raider better (they do have a massive movement bubble after the Wyches disembark, and you can aim to keep it pretty distant from the Wyches depending what you're assaulting).

This is a very complicated subject, and I know I'm giving it short shrift, but that's my general reasoning for favoring maxed damage if I'm runing a lot of Wyches (though, as noted, I do tend to go Red Grief and am generally just trying to touch things/let my Succubus do the heavy lifting as I tend to use Dissies more to deal with my problems).

Wyches often struggle to down lots of things, and I'd rather have an easier job of the killing most of the time, and suggest wanting less killing is an issue to be sorted more often by placement rather than building a squad less optimally (with caveats that the moral thing *is* a massive boon for Cursed Blade that always deserves consideration irrespective of the killing power aspect).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/14 19:58:16


Thor665's Dark Eldar Tactica - A comprehensive guide to all things DE (Totally finished...till I update bits and pieces!)
Thor665's battle reports DE vs. assorted armies.
Splintermind: The Dark Eldar Podcast It's a podcast, about Dark Eldar.
Dashofpepper wrote:Thor665 is actually a Dark Eldar god, manifested into electronic bytes and presented here on dakkadakka to bring pain and destruction to all lesser races. Read his tactica, read his forums posts, and when he deigns to critique or advise you directly, bookmark it and pay attention.
 
   
Made in nz
Chosen Baal Sec Youngblood




 Thor665 wrote:


20 Wyches +1 Attack Vs. GEQ
60 attacks = 40 hits = 20 Wounds = 13.333 after saves

20 Wyches +1 Str Vs. GEQ
40 attacks = 26.666 hits = 17.777 wounds = 11.85 after saves.

Ah, I hear you say, but that's vs. Guardsmen, what about versus something with a 4 Toughness, like SPHESS MAHREENS!?! Surely there the ability to wound on a 4+ versus 5+ will make a massive difference, yeah?
Okay, let's look at that;

20 Wyches +1 Attack Vs. MEQ
60 attacks = 40 hits = 13.333 Wounds = 4.444 after saves

20 Wyches +1 Str Vs. MEQ
40 attacks = 26.666 hits = 13.333 wounds = 4.444 after saves.


Hmm, this is interesting. When I worked it out I got a different result, but I was counting the extra attack from the blades. So got:
20 Wyches + 1A vs GEQ
80 A = 53.33 hits = 26.66 wounds = 17.77 killed

20 Wyches + 1S vs GEQ
60 A = 40 hits = 26.557 wounds = 17.77 killed

20 Wyches + 1A vs MEQ
80 A = 53.33 hits = 17.77 wounds = 5.9 killed

20 Wyches + 1S vs MEQ
60 A = 40 hits = 20 wounds = 6.66 killed

So equal performance vs GEQ, but a tiny edge better against MEQ?

I think the difference is you've gone from 40A to 60A, giving 50% damage output, but if you count them as 3A starting point with the blades, then the damage increase from the extra attack to 4A is only 33%. In the real world the extra attack on things like shardnets or gauntlets might end up more effective due to extra damage or reroll wounds, not really sure.

However, given the actual total damage output of the wyches in either scenario, the morale or speed is looks like it would be the deciding factor rather than pure damage output, unless you're going up against T6 or T7 units, which is probably the wrong target anyway.

On another note - your notes about wrapping and trapping are really interesting - I hadn't really thought about just keeping models outside 1" in order to do less damage, then consolidate in. I've always just relied on having enough models to wrap regardless when I play BA, and then been relying on the shardnets mostly for the wyches. This is a really good idea (I'm sure well known, but just never seen it before).
   
Made in ca
Lethal Lhamean






Venice, Florida

Eardrumms wrote:
So equal performance vs GEQ, but a tiny edge better against MEQ?

Damn, you are correct, I forgot they became Bloodbrides nowadays. The numbers still skew back as you get into higher toughness, but I might need to rethink which Cult I run my Wych spam army as, the lack of a good Cursed Blade Succubus option is still vexing to the decision though.

Eardrumms wrote:
On another note - your notes about wrapping and trapping are really interesting - I hadn't really thought about just keeping models outside 1" in order to do less damage, then consolidate in. I've always just relied on having enough models to wrap regardless when I play BA, and then been relying on the shardnets mostly for the wyches. This is a really good idea (I'm sure well known, but just never seen it before).

It's definitely an important part of high level play, especially for something that serves the job Wyches do (I also wanted to master it for my Fiends of Slaanesh, which are even huggier than Wyches) The perfect world is doing the wrap via the consolidate move on a second unit you never charged, which can then be made impossible for your opponent to avoid even with clever model pulling as you'll never swing on him - but it can also work well with even abutting into a vehicle that you've blocked in with his gunline or something. I think there's a good video I saw that explains this pretty well since they have visual examples.

And I found it;
https://youtu.be/7yXsZFlk6lY

Also this one;
https://youtu.be/_TM6BlHN_cc


If you can apply some of the above to your Wyches I can promise you you'll have better results for them in games.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/15 14:22:18


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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Los Angeles

 Thor665 wrote:
Eardrumms wrote:
So equal performance vs GEQ, but a tiny edge better against MEQ?
Damn, you are correct, I forgot they became Bloodbrides nowadays. The numbers still skew back as you get into higher toughness, but I might need to rethink which Cult I run my Wych spam army as, the lack of a good Cursed Blade Succubus option is still vexing to the decision though.
Huh. With Eardrumm's numbers ...

Lessee, I know you two have been running numbers with 20 girls, but I use 9, because of a raider's capacity, plus a succubus. One of the things we're all doing wrong is forgetting the effect of combat drugs. I will leave out goofy weapons and succubi reroll s, for ease of variables, as you two have before.

Regarding Combat Drug selection; I take it that we can agree that +1A, S and WS are best used on the wyches and +1T and +2" move are best handed off to succubi? Leadership!? Pah!
I color matched the combat drugs to help ease of comparison. The orange are +1A, brown +1S and blue +1WS colors are there to correspond combat drugs with the other cults.

What I get is:

**
Cult of Strife wyches with +1A (5 dice per wych)
9 C.S. girls versus Geq: 45 swings, 30 hits. 15 wounds. 10 die on 5+ guard armor
9 C.S. girls versus Meq: 45 swings, 30 hits. 10 wounds. ~3.3 die on 3+ power armor


9 Cult of Strife +1S (4 dice per wych)
9 C.S. girls versus Geq: 36 swings, 24 hits. 16 wounds. ~10.3 die on 5+ guard armor
9 C.S. girls versus Meq: 36 swings, 24 hits. 12 wounds. 4 die on 3+ power armor


And, just, why not? +1WS
9 C.S. girls versus Geq: 36 swings, 30 hits. 15 wounds. 10 die on 5+ guard armor
9 C.S. girls versus Meq: 36 swings, 30 hits. 10 wounds. ~3.3 die on 3+ guard armor


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Now the Cursed Blade wyches, all starting at S4 and 3 base Attacks:
wyches with +1A (4 dice per wych at S4)
9 C.B. girls versus Geq: 36 swings, 24 hits. 16 wounds. ~10.3 die on 5+ guard armor
9 C.B. girls versus Meq: 36 swings, 24 hits. 12 wounds. 4 die on 3+ power armor


+1S
9 C.B. girls versus Geq: 27 swings, 18 hits. 12 wounds. 8 die on 5+ guard armor
9 C.B. girls versus Meq: 27 swings, 18 hits. 12 wounds. 4 die on 3+ power armor


+1WS
9 C.B. girls versus Geq: 27 swings, 22.5 hits. ~15.5 wounds. ~10 die on 5+ guard armor
9 C.B. girls versus Meq: 27 swings, 22.5 hits. ~11.25 wounds. ~3.5 die on 3+ power armor


My analysis of this (if I crunched numbers correctly) is that in most cases, CB has an edge of .333 to 2 or so more dead, except for CB +1S, which is the game mechanic comparing S vs T at a plateau.


Now, let's crunch numbers on higher Toughness targets (not wyches' ideal choice, but it happens). I am going to skip saves, because at high T, we're looking at vehicles, daemons, some with armor and/or invulns, thus too many variables in saves.

+1A versus high T targets
9 C.S. girls versus T4&5: 45 swings, 30 hits. 10 wounds.
9 C.S. girls versus T6+: 45 swings, 30 hits. 5 wounds.

+1S
9 C.S. girls versus T5-7: 36 swings, 24 hits. 8 wounds.
9 C.S. girls versus T8+: 36 swings, 24 hits. 4 wounds.


+1WS
9 C.S. girls versus T5: 36 swings, 30 hits. 10 wounds
9 C.S. girls versus T6+: 36 swings, 30 hits. 5 wounds



+1A
9 CB girls versus T5: 36 swings, 24 hits. 8 wounds
9 CB girls versus T6+: 36 swings, 24 hits. 8 wounds. And that's up to T9


+1S
9 CB girls versus T5: 27 swings, 18 hits. 9 wounds
9 CB girls versus T6+: 27 swings, 18 hits. 6 wounds


+1WS
9 CB girls versus T5: 27 swings, 22.5 hits. ~11 wounds
9 CB girls versus T6+: 27 swings, 22.5 hits. ~7.5 wounds


There is a little more difference here, with a pendulum of a 3 wound swing at most. One might argue that girls taking on high T targets is definitely not first their agenda, but given all an Plague Marine enemy, they'll have to.

Overall, I'm seeing such a slight difference that a meticulous general would opt for for one or the other (one multi-GT player agreed with me that Cursed Blade was best). And ... unless I crunched 'em wrong, it seems as CB kills more than RS, for the most part.

More considerations:
Are you using a 20 wych bomb (via WWP) with Patrol detachment? If so, then you pick which combat drug (+1A or +1S) the unit has according to the opponent you face at the time.
Is the list multiple wych units, medium sized, 9 or 10 girls? Like mine, where I can tailor and adapt by assigning one combat drug crew over another for better targets.
Or minimum unit sizes of 5?

These are golden!

**
I hope I got the numbers right.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/08/23 04:05:45


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