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The new Iron Hands CT is great, a good upgrade. However, 6+ FNP wasn't worth very much, as I'm sure everyone discovered early in 8th edition (I know I did), even when you could take MULTIPLE FNP saves (like venerable dreadnought and IH CT). Adding the overwatch bonus is really good, and so's the double-your-wounds aspect.

However, since vehicles are still fairly easily locked in CC, is this really that strong? The CT as it is becoming encourages you to take vehicles, especially vehicles with lots of firepower, but if they get charged successfully, you'll still lose the next rounds shooting attacks. It looks to me like it's not really as great as some here are making it out to be. The army is still going to need bubble wrap, which reduces how many vehicles you can take, and the 5+ overwatch is a really small benefit - it makes you think you want to be charged when really you don't.

The Imperial Fists chapter tactics look a lot better to me, especially when you can combine with Tactical doctrine or Storm of Fire warlord trait to get AP-2 bolter fire. Which, admittedly, isn't going to devastate Knights or Vehicles, really. But it doesn't encourage you to do something that's against your best interests, unlike the Iron Hands CT.

Marines now have a lot of vehicles with Fly you know.

Repulsors, Executioners, and Impulsors all have FLY. These are the default marine tanks now.

6+ FNP is not very reliable, however averaged over your army you're essentially getting 17% more wounds across the board. It should not be underestimated.

Point of note, unless specifically allowed Doctrines do not stack with other sources of additional AP.

With easy access to fly and re-roll auras the 5+ overwatch is deceptively strong as are their vehicles essentially ignoring the damage table and having that 6+fnp. The big thing about the FNP is that it can be clutch and it's always on. You have defense against everything and a chance to survive. The more defensive dice you roll the more you will make + when you do roll those 6+s against D2 as primaris the feels will be great.

Also put me in the camp for Iron Hands getting a 5+ for their special rule somehow.

 Stux wrote:
Repulsors, Executioners, and Impulsors all have FLY. These are the default marine tanks now.

6+ FNP is not very reliable, however averaged over your army you're essentially getting 17% more wounds across the board. It should not be underestimated.

None of them are Marine vehicles though. They are primaris vehicles and the op speaks about Marines.

 Stux wrote:
Repulsors, Executioners, and Impulsors all have FLY. These are the default marine tanks now.

6+ FNP is not very reliable, however averaged over your army you're essentially getting 17% more wounds across the board. It should not be underestimated.

20% more, not 17%. The wounds that are saved by a 6+++ can be saved again. so the calculation is 1/6 + 1/36 + 1/216 + ..... = 1/5. Same thing happens with 5+ FNP it's a 50% increase.

 godardc wrote:

 Stux wrote:
Repulsors, Executioners, and Impulsors all have FLY. These are the default marine tanks now.

6+ FNP is not very reliable, however averaged over your army you're essentially getting 17% more wounds across the board. It should not be underestimated.

None of them are Marine vehicles though. They are primaris vehicles and the op speaks about Marines.

Well I mean they are Primaris space marines found in the space marine codex with the space marine keyword. They're just as space marine as a space marine can be a space marine.