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Made in se
Fresh-Faced New User




Stockholm

So, I'm doing some theory-crafting Tallarn shenanigans, and I have two questions. I may be missing some crucial rules here, so please correct me if I'm wrong here. I am quoting the rulage from 1d4chan, so I might have gotten some of it wrong.

Both questions relates to the Tallarn Regiment-Specific Stratagem Ambush , so...

1) Say I want to shove a 3 tank punisher unit onto my opponent's arse using the Ambush strategem, will the Tallarn Punisher LR's count as not having moved in regards to firing their heavy and rapid weapons?

a) Tallarn Doctrine; Tallarn vehicles do not suffer the penalty for moving and shooting their Heavy Weapons.
b) Tallarn - Ambush Strategem; You may set up to three Tallarn units (only one of which can be a vehicle) in ambush. At the end of your movement phase, you may deploy them within 7" of the table's edge and more than 9" from any enemy units; they are treated as having moved their maximum distance.

So will the BRRRT's on tracks count as having moved their maximum distance as per Ambush, or will they be able to fire their heavies and rapids as per the Tallarn Doctrine? My question really is... will I get all the 120 shots from Grinding Advance from the ambushing punishers?


(( Bonus question; the strategem states "three Tallarn units (only one of which can be a vehicle)" - Does this mean that there can only be one vehicle unit out of the three ambushing units, or only one vehicle model total in the ambush? ))


2) A question that relates to this thread https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/741508.page#9640013 (how the hell does the linkie-thingy work here?!)

Say I wanted to set up a chimera with embarked troops inside it, lets say two spec weapon squads. The Strategem says "You may set up to three Tallarn units (only one of which can be a vehicle) in ambush." - and if I deploy my spec weapon squads embarked in the chimera, they are not actually not "set up" in an ambush, and it is only the chimera that is actually deployed with the ambush strategem?

My question is would this shenanigans consume all three possible units for that single (3cp) stratagem, or would I be able to set up two additional infantry units in the same ambush? How does the part of being deployed embarked work here for the two spec weapon squads?

I read the other thread about it, but it was still a bit unclear. If I "set up" my spec weapon squads as embarked during deployment phase, they will be outside the table. And then I will declare the Chimera using Ambush strategem, and place it wherever, carrying the spec weapon squads..

or...

do you have to "set up" embarked units together with their dedicated transport in the same go during the deployment phase, forcing either standard deployment, or deploying all of them in the ambush, but embarked, and consuming all possible three units for the ambush?

What are your thoughts about these two musings, oh wise ones?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/14 13:31:45


I'm supposed to write something cool here... right?  
   
Made in us
Lurking Gaunt





Fun story. It doesn't matter if they do count as moved. Tallarn vehicles dont take penalties for moving and shooting heavy weapons. Send 3 publishers yarrick and some bullgryns and ruin a flank.
   
Made in gb
Dominating Dominatrix






Spoiler:
 Ascellaris wrote:
So, I'm doing some theory-crafting Tallarn shenanigans, and I have two questions. I may be missing some crucial rules here, so please correct me if I'm wrong here. I am quoting the rulage from 1d4chan, so I might have gotten some of it wrong.

Both questions relates to the Tallarn Regiment-Specific Stratagem Ambush , so...

1) Say I want to shove a 3 tank punisher unit onto my opponent's arse using the Ambush strategem, will the Tallarn Punisher LR's count as not having moved in regards to firing their heavy and rapid weapons?

a) Tallarn Doctrine; Tallarn vehicles do not suffer the penalty for moving and shooting their Heavy Weapons.
b) Tallarn - Ambush Strategem; You may set up to three Tallarn units (only one of which can be a vehicle) in ambush. At the end of your movement phase, you may deploy them within 7" of the table's edge and more than 9" from any enemy units; they are treated as having moved their maximum distance.

So will the BRRRT's on tracks count as having moved their maximum distance as per Ambush, or will they be able to fire their heavies and rapids as per the Tallarn Doctrine? My question really is... will I get all the 120 shots from Grinding Advance from the ambushing punishers?


2) A question that relates to this thread https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/741508.page#9640013 (how the hell does the linkie-thingy work here?!)

Say I wanted to set up a chimera with embarked troops inside it, lets say two spec weapon squads. The Strategem says "You may set up to three Tallarn units (only one of which can be a vehicle) in ambush." - and if I deploy my spec weapon squads embarked in the chimera, they are not actually not "set up" in an ambush, and it is only the chimera that is actually deployed with the ambush strategem?

My question is would this shenanigans consume all three possible units for that single (3cp) stratagem, or would I be able to set up two additional infantry units in the same ambush? How does the part of being deployed embarked work here for the two spec weapon squads?

I read the other thread about it, but it was still a bit unclear. If I "set up" my spec weapon squads as embarked during deployment phase, they will be outside the table. And then I will declare the Chimera using Ambush strategem, and place it wherever, carrying the spec weapon squads..

or...

do you have to "set up" embarked units together with their dedicated transport in the same go during the deployment phase, forcing either standard deployment, or deploying all of them in the ambush, but embarked, and consuming all possible three units for the ambush?

What are your thoughts about these two musings, oh wise ones?
1)
WARHAMMER 40,000 CODEX: ASTRA MILITARUM Official Update Version 1.3 wrote:Page 136 – Ambush
Change the second sentence to read:
‘Choose up to three Tallarn units to be set up in ambush instead of placing them on the battlefield (only one of these units can have the Vehicle keyword).’

Add the following sentence:
‘The units are considered to have moved their maximum distance.’


2)
BRB, Page 183, Transport Boxout wrote:When you set up a transport, units can start the battle embarked within it instead of being set up separately – declare what units are embarked inside the transport when you set it up.
When you set up a unit "in ambush", you declare what other units from your army are embarked upon it. The units embarked do not interact with the Ambush stratagem.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
dreadlybrew wrote:
Fun story. It doesn't matter if they do count as moved. Tallarn vehicles dont take penalties for moving and shooting heavy weapons. Send 3 publishers yarrick and some bullgryns and ruin a flank.
Yes it does, because of Grinding Advance.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/14 13:31:07


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Made in us
Lurking Gaunt





Embarked units would count as one. You could load up a chimera but it would take up the space of the vehicles. 3 lrbts are better than anything you could pack in there. Yarrick and bullgryns is the way to go.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My advice would be to put them in a emperors fist detachment and let one shoot twice for 1 cp. If they are in a spearhead they also get to be objective secured.

You're already sneaking 29x3 start shots into the back line that's a pretty great start.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/14 13:34:41


 
   
Made in gb
Dominating Dominatrix






dreadlybrew wrote:
Embarked units would count as one. You could load up a chimera but it would take up the space of the vehicles.
This is not true. A Chimera with 2 units embarked is only a single unit for the purposes of the Ambush stratagem, as per the rules for deploying units inside transports.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/14 13:49:55


Add me on Discord: BaconCatBug#0294
+++++There are currently ONE HUNDRED AND SIX (106) documents required to play Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
+++++List of "broken" RaW in Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
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Made in se
Fresh-Faced New User




Stockholm

 BaconCatBug wrote:
dreadlybrew wrote:
Embarked units would count as one. You could load up a chimera but it would take up the space of the vehicles.
This is not true. A Chimera with 2 units embarked is only a single unit for the purposes of the Ambush stratagem, as per the rules for deploying units inside transports.


Isn't that what dreadlybrew just said? Or maybe I read it wrong...

Anyway, thank you all for the clarification on that one. That means I can get 10 crusaders, a priest, and a psyker and two additional infantry squads in my opponents face turn one without a valkyrie. Cheezy stuff.


And about grinding advance and Tallarn vehicles.. I just saw this "VEHICLES with this doctrine do not suffer the penalty to their hit rolls for moving and firing Heavy weapons." - so it's just that I won't suffer penalty to hit for having moved, ie deployed in ambush, which counts as having moved their maximum distance, so no grinding advance. I must have mixed up the words there...

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/14 14:08:31


I'm supposed to write something cool here... right?  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




You cant bring units in via this strategem turn 1 in matched play.
   
Made in gb
Dominating Dominatrix






 Ascellaris wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
dreadlybrew wrote:
Embarked units would count as one. You could load up a chimera but it would take up the space of the vehicles.
This is not true. A Chimera with 2 units embarked is only a single unit for the purposes of the Ambush stratagem, as per the rules for deploying units inside transports.


Isn't that what dreadlybrew just said? Or maybe I read it wrong...

Anyway, thank you all for the clarification on that one. That means I can get 10 crusaders, a priest, and a psyker and two additional infantry squads in my opponents face turn one without a valkyrie. Cheezy stuff.


And about grinding advance and Tallarn vehicles.. I just saw this "VEHICLES with this doctrine do not suffer the penalty to their hit rolls for moving and firing Heavy weapons." - so it's just that I won't suffer penalty to hit for having moved, ie deployed in ambush, which counts as having moved their maximum distance, so no grinding advance. I must have mixed up the words there...
I read that "embarked units count as one [of the three units referenced by the Ambush stratagem]".

Add me on Discord: BaconCatBug#0294
+++++There are currently ONE HUNDRED AND SIX (106) documents required to play Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
+++++List of "broken" RaW in Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
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Made in se
Fresh-Faced New User




Stockholm

Sterling191 wrote:
You cant bring units in via this strategem turn 1 in matched play.


Ah I see! What rules in matched play is governing this kind of deployment? Is it the same with deep-striking units and so on, or just this kind of ambushing strategem?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/14 14:19:35


I'm supposed to write something cool here... right?  
   
Made in us
Lurking Gaunt





Sorry i was on the metro when i was answering this earlier.

The chimera takes up the space of one unit for the stratagem, you then have whatever you want to pack inside the chimera as freebies, and 2 other non vehicle units which should be maxed out conscripts... for the lulls.

another thing to note is that they do not have to be deployed together. So you can deploy them as a triple threat..
   
Made in se
Fresh-Faced New User




Stockholm

 BaconCatBug wrote:
dreadlybrew wrote:
Embarked units would count as one. You could load up a chimera but it would take up the space of the vehicles.
This is not true. A Chimera with 2 units embarked is only a single unit for the purposes of the Ambush stratagem, as per the rules for deploying units inside transports.


As I read it, it would mean that the chimera carrying troops would only count towards one of the three possible units"Embarked units would count as one."

However I would not be able to deploy my LR's at the same time in the same ambush "You could load up a chimera but it would take up the space of the vehicles." as the chimera would consume the single ambush vehicle slot.

At least that's how I understood it... so basically you are saying the same thing...?

I'm supposed to write something cool here... right?  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Ascellaris wrote:

Is it the same with deep-striking units and so on


Correct. Theres some variance in the description of the strategems/abilities, but if it allows you to set a unit up off the table and bring them in later, its governed by the deep strike restrictions.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/14 14:24:26


 
   
Made in se
Fresh-Faced New User




Stockholm

dreadlybrew wrote:
Sorry i was on the metro when i was answering this earlier.

The chimera takes up the space of one unit for the stratagem, you then have whatever you want to pack inside the chimera as freebies, and 2 other non vehicle units which should be maxed out conscripts... for the lulls.

another thing to note is that they do not have to be deployed together. So you can deploy them as a triple threat..


Mmmh, I am seeing conscripts. A chimera with a commissar and an officer for nasty orders, consolidate squads strategem.. and some others extras cheese... This is getting fun!

I'm supposed to write something cool here... right?  
   
Made in us
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant





Gainesville, VA

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
dreadlybrew wrote:
Fun story. It doesn't matter if they do count as moved. Tallarn vehicles dont take penalties for moving and shooting heavy weapons. Send 3 publishers yarrick and some bullgryns and ruin a flank.
Yes it does, because of Grinding Advance.


I think you're mixing up two different things here.

They do not suffer the -1 to hit penalty on heavy weapons for having moved, due to the 'Swift as the Wind' doctrine. But they do not get two turret weapon shots, as per 'Grinding Advance' rule.

 Ascellaris wrote:
Mmmh, I am seeing conscripts. A chimera with a commissar and an officer for nasty orders, consolidate squads strategem.. and some others extras cheese... This is getting fun!


Consolidate squads only works on 'Infantry Squads' not conscripts.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/14 14:34:20


 
   
Made in se
Fresh-Faced New User




Stockholm

 Kcalehc wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
dreadlybrew wrote:
Fun story. It doesn't matter if they do count as moved. Tallarn vehicles dont take penalties for moving and shooting heavy weapons. Send 3 publishers yarrick and some bullgryns and ruin a flank.
Yes it does, because of Grinding Advance.


I think you're mixing up two different things here.

They do not suffer the -1 to hit penalty on heavy weapons for having moved, due to the 'Swift as the Wind' doctrine. But they do not get two turret weapon shots, as per 'Grinding Advance' rule.


This was my original question, but I realized that I had mixed up the rules. Like you said Swift as the Wind doctrine does not allow for two shots as grinding advance, as the doctrine only negates "to hit" penalty of heavy weapons if having moved. Two different things, and my dream of 120x S5 alpha shots went into the dumpster. But that would indeed have been OP.



 Kcalehc wrote:

Consolidate squads only works on 'Infantry Squads' not conscripts.


Ah, why must it be so hard to cheese!? But it does make kinda sense though. Thanks for pointing that out
Need to read the rules more carefully... there's so much to read...

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/08/14 14:43:18


I'm supposed to write something cool here... right?  
   
Made in us
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant





Gainesville, VA

 Ascellaris wrote:
 Kcalehc wrote:

I think you're mixing up two different things here.

They do not suffer the -1 to hit penalty on heavy weapons for having moved, due to the 'Swift as the Wind' doctrine. But they do not get two turret weapon shots, as per 'Grinding Advance' rule.
 Ascellaris wrote:
Mmmh, I am seeing conscripts. A chimera with a commissar and an officer for nasty orders, consolidate squads strategem.. and some others extras cheese... This is getting fun!


Consolidate squads only works on 'Infantry Squads' not conscripts.

Ah, why must it be so hard to cheese!? But it does make kinda sense though. Thanks for pointing that out
Need to read the rules more carefully... there's so much to read...


Well with 3 heavy bolters per LRBT, and the Emperors Fist Unyielding Advance Stratagem, you would get 98 S5 shots. Still not terrible really. Costs you a few CP though might be worth it.

Only thing about bringing a Chimera on full of troops, is you can't disembark them the turn they arrive, so if playing with Tactical reserves, they won't do much till turn 3 at the earliest. But at least you can have a Commander safe in there and use the Mobile Command Vehicle stratagem so he can give orders.

And yeah, the rules are a bit disorganized I feel, and so many little wording differences can easily lead to mistakes. Often players use short hand descriptions for rules, and that tends to make it worse.
   
 
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