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So with the new SM codex, Bolt rifles have some interesting variance and application. I'd like to use this thread just to discuss these 3 weapons:

Bolt Rifle - 30" RF1 Ap1 D1
Auto BR - 24" Assault 3 Ap0 D1
Stalker BR - 36" Heavy 1 Ap2 D2

While I'm including the Stalker for open discussion, my main question is which gun is better between the BR and ABR?
BR up until now has been the best of all 3 due to getting more shots than the Stalker and better AP than the ABR. But now that the ABR has 3 shots (and doesn't need Bolter Discipline to get its full shots) and can be AP1 while Tactical Doctrine is active, I'm kinda thinking the ABR is the best, especially if you have things like Hellblasters and/or Inceptors in your list for the heavier targets.

3 shots at Ap1 just feels more useful than 2 shots at Ap2. Even with UMs that basically get BD all the time (because they count as stationary if they don't Advance or Fall back)

Thoughts?

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Do we have points on them?

3 shots is pretty nice. But as most of my games are vs. my son’s salamanders, AP1 is about to be pretty worthless to me.

I think the 3 options are a lot more balanced, and it’s no longer a must-take on the rapid fire. Might even be worth taking different squads with different guns for different roles. Much better then the one for all, and the rest in the bitz box.

Will have to double check but Im pretty sure ABRs are still +1 PPM over BR/SBRs

Yes, from what I've heard it's a 1ppm difference.
So 5 BR Intercessors would be 85pts, 5 w/ ABR would be 90pts. Hardly a noticeable difference IMO.

@Nevelon, that is a very good point I had not considered. Currently my 2 sons have UMs and Salamanders and they either play each other, or against my Eldar, Necrons or Chaos. Against my stuff, the ABR is better, but if they play against each other, the UMs will want to keep the BRs for the AP-2

Although, I might try to convince them both to take Successors instead and drop the AP-1 counts as AP-0 trait.

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Three ABR shots is almost always better than two BR shots, and you can advance and shoot with ABR. However, if your're camping an objective, the extra range of the normal BR is really useful. I will certainly be adding more ABRs, I think that about an even mix of them and normal ones will be good. Even though the stalkers were buffed, they're still crap. With the tactical doctrine both other variants either equal or outdamage them, and if you really want Primaris with long range shooting, the Eliminators are now easily a superior option.

I just noticed that Intercessor Sgts can take a different weapon than their unit. Any merit in doing so?
Probably not wise to mix Stalkers and ABRs, but a single Stalker in a unit with BRs might be fun, especially for Salamanders. Of course, the Auxiliary launcher probably performs better even then.

My boys decided they want to stick with BRs, but I'm gonna try to convince them to take either ABR or Stalker on their Sgts

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Deathwatch primaris could see a shift towards ABR as it bypasses their limitations on bolter discipline and SIA, and mixing a single aggressor into a killteam negates the advance penalty, it's now the highest ROF and most mobile poison bolter outside of 12".

For Codex chapters it's going to be much closer than previously, I expect the BR is still the universal default but ABR could be picked for chapters less reliant on tac doctrine, such as:
1. Intercessors are basically doubling up as primaris assault squads, white scars will make use of advance/shoot/charge (still no room for Reivers lol)
2. Crimson Fists look like they can pretty much auto hit with bolters (doubles on a six and +1 will average at 100% accuracy without characters), so could go for volume over penetration

Captains/HQ's will 100% always take the MC ABR, triple the shots and double the max damage output of the MC SBR and buffed by a more universal doctrine - stalker is still always the worst option even without eliminators existing.

The ABR is going to generate more extra hits with IF/CF Chapter Tactics, for what that's worth. Which, if you are in the Tactical Doctrine means even more AP-1 hits.

ABR also gets by far the best tactic out of the three variants, allowing for 30 autohits on a squad of 10. It is real strong.

Double shooting with rapid fire 2 is better unless the target has a bunch of hit penalties.

Auto hits on 30 shots who can hit on a 3+ means you're getting 10 extra hits (less if you had hit reroll buffs).

Double fire 10 stationary guys is 20 shots of which 2/3 will hit. That's 13-14 extra, more with a reroll aura. Even halved due to moving the extra shots is as good with rerolls.

Stalker is actually good for backfield camping and are great against other primaris marines and bikes. They are ap3 with the devastate doctrine up.

 schadenfreude wrote:
Stalker is actually good for backfield camping and are great against other primaris marines and bikes. They are ap3 with the devastate doctrine up.

Why not just take Eliminators which fulfil the same role but are a lot better?

stratigo wrote:
ABR also gets by far the best tactic out of the three variants, allowing for 30 autohits on a squad of 10. It is real strong.

Esp vs fething PB.

 Crimson wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
Stalker is actually good for backfield camping and are great against other primaris marines and bikes. They are ap3 with the devastate doctrine up.

Why not just take Eliminators which fulfil the same role but are a lot better?

Aren't they 7 points more per model?

A squad of 5 stalker has 4 more wounds, does more damage, and has obsec for only 3 more points.

Eliminators pay a high cost for their 3 types of ammo. I'm not sold on them

Eliminators have camo cloaks so their wounds are harder to shift. They can snipe characters for free, can shoot things out of LOS and hyperfrag chaff. I think they're much better for their points. They don't fill mandatory troop slot though, and that might be significant depending on how your army is composed.

 schadenfreude wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
Stalker is actually good for backfield camping and are great against other primaris marines and bikes. They are ap3 with the devastate doctrine up.

Why not just take Eliminators which fulfil the same role but are a lot better?

Aren't they 7 points more per model?

A squad of 5 stalker has 4 more wounds, does more damage, and has obsec for only 3 more points.

Eliminators pay a high cost for their 3 types of ammo. I'm not sold on them

I'm sorry but I'm still not sold on stalkers, simply put normal bot rifles to me are much more useful if you can get into tactical doctrine. The 2 shots gives you the same damage potential against multi wounds but much better against the chaff your likely to be shooting with bolters, eliminators look like the way to kill support charictors if thats what you planning. As 3CP to be able to target charictors is too much, scout snipers can do that job and contribute to your second battalions troops if you need troops.

Ice_can wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
Stalker is actually good for backfield camping and are great against other primaris marines and bikes. They are ap3 with the devastate doctrine up.

Why not just take Eliminators which fulfil the same role but are a lot better?

Aren't they 7 points more per model?

A squad of 5 stalker has 4 more wounds, does more damage, and has obsec for only 3 more points.

Eliminators pay a high cost for their 3 types of ammo. I'm not sold on them

I'm sorry but I'm still not sold on stalkers, simply put normal bot rifles to me are much more useful if you can get into tactical doctrine. The 2 shots gives you the same damage potential against multi wounds but much better against the chaff your likely to be shooting with bolters, eliminators look like the way to kill support charictors if thats what you planning. As 3CP to be able to target charictors is too much, scout snipers can do that job and contribute to your second battalions troops if you need troops.

Scout snipers are still #1 for character sniping. Damage from 2 scouts is equal, but they crank out twice as many mortal wounds.

The main use of stalker rifles is 2w targets. If the meta changes to have lots of 2w opponents they may be good, but we are not there yet.

I don't think eliminations have enough shots to drop characters especially marines with a 3+ armor save

S5 AP3 Dd3 damage from 3x squads with salamander-esque rerolls are gonna shred pretty much any character they get a clean shot on. Its a formation I expect to see in any competitive SM list going forward.

I think it is great that we can actually have this thread. Prior to the new codex, there was literally no point in the ABR and Stalker. Now each option is at least viable. I can see people making cases for each so at least the variants are closer being balanced than they used to be.

I still like the standard BR for the AP-1 but ABR is looking kinda tempting now.

 Karhedron wrote:
I think it is great that we can actually have this thread. Prior to the new codex, there was literally no point in the ABR and Stalker. Now each option is at least viable. I can see people making cases for each so at least the variants are closer being balanced than they used to be.

Yeah, absolutely!

 Crimson wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:
I think it is great that we can actually have this thread. Prior to the new codex, there was literally no point in the ABR and Stalker. Now each option is at least viable. I can see people making cases for each so at least the variants are closer being balanced than they used to be.

Yeah, absolutely!

Exactly why I started this thread. Although, it's sadly starting to look like the Stalker doesn't have a place, either because Eliminators fill that role better or getting 2 shots with a BR at AP2 when the Tactical Doctrine is active is more versatile without losing any average damage.

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I think the stalker bolt rifle has a place. just not en masse. it also depends on what you're facing. as many stalkers as you can take might be handy if your regular opponent takes custodes

ABR is critical vs demons. At least, in my view.

given the lack of armor saves on deamons and their preferance for short range fighting that makes sense

And the ability to hit automatically vs -2 to hit PB.

I now rate all three. I think I’ll be taking them all.

ABRs have probably become a far better idea and possibly the default now instead of bolt rifles. The extra shot all the time is just great.

However, the rapid fire stratagem makes bolt rifles seriously good. If you’re prepared to pay the CPs then you get a ton of shots, and ap-2 makes them a threat against even things like custodes.

Stalkers are harder to justify in comparison with the others because more shots are almost always better to have. However they’re the best option against multi-wound targets with good armour and you’ll nearly always have something worth shooting them at. They’ve gone from a terrible option to something worth considering.

The target sighted stratagem is very interesting. Imagine a unit of 10 stalkers with a chaplain inspiring them for +1 on wound rolls. They start to become incredibly dangerous to enemy characters, able to threaten even things like custodes bikers and probably able to put some useful wounds on a knight or a tank. Note that the mortal wound thing works on any target - not just characters. But this does cost 3cps and enquire a Chaplain so I’m not sure it’s really worth it.

The advantage these guys have over eliminators, apart from cost and being troops, is that buffs will affect far more models. Something like transhumance physiology could make a really big difference if someone like IG is trying to get rid of them with basilisks and stuff.

Both the rapid fire and target sighted stratagems have a high cost cost. I think they’re only really worth it on 10-man units, which have their own disadvantages with morale (somewhat mitigated by a chaplain). I think this means you’re better off taking ABRs on 5-man squads as they are the most effective without stratagem support. A 10-man unit with rifles or stalkers might come in handy, though you’ll probably often combat squad them.

Ultimately, an intercessor’s gun is only part of what he’s there for. The main point is to have a highly durable obscene model. Now they are a decent threat in shooting and melee as well, making them a great choice all-round.

Of course one thing to remember is that we haven't seen all the super doctrines that the supplements bring. So if (as it is likely) there will be some which encourage staying in the Devastator Doctrine instead of rushing to Tactical ASAP, then that makes the stalkers relatively more attractive.

I think right now that ABR are the default option. I saw some chart breaking down the math and even in rapid fire range versus bolt rifle, the ABR actually does more damage and more damage per point while in tactical doctrine. I do not know how that would shift while not in tactical however. The options afforded to you with an assault weapon will end up winning out I think. However one beef boy squad of 10 bolt rifles just to use the rapid fire 2 stratagem on them could be a strong contender albeit moderately point heavy as well as requiring a strong investment of valuable CP.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
I think right now that ABR are the default option. I saw some chart breaking down the math and even in rapid fire range versus bolt rifle, the ABR actually does more damage and more damage per point while in tactical doctrine. I do not know how that would shift while not in tactical however. The options afforded to you with an assault weapon will end up winning out I think. However one beef boy squad of 10 bolt rifles just to use the rapid fire 2 stratagem on them could be a strong contender albeit moderately point heavy as well as requiring a strong investment of valuable CP.

Some shaky mathhammer, assuming targets are wearing power armour so that there is always enough armour to warrant the AP in play:

Against 1w models, the BR needs to be rapid firing to cause the same damage as an ABR. If tactical doctrine is in play ABR is 12.5% more effective than a rapid firing BR.

SBR only ever outperforms the other variants when shooting at 2w models and tactical doctrine is not active (i.e. better during dev/assault. If tactical doctrine is on, BR gets the same damage and ABR is 12.5% more effective than SBR).

With stratagems and tactical doctrine, 40 BR shots outperform 30 ABR autohits by 18.5%.

Also worth noting, if rerolls to hit are in effect, IF/CF accuracy goes up to 111% (making ABR stratagem worthless), however as that effects all bolt weapons equally the ABR still has the advantage.

Best use of rifles seems to be big squads of 10 BR's and everything without a plan gets an ABR. Best use of SBR is probably with +3" range active so that you can sit 39" away and just be untouchable.

 Galef wrote:
Although, it's sadly starting to look like the Stalker doesn't have a place, either because Eliminators fill that role better or getting 2 shots with a BR at AP2 when the Tactical Doctrine is active is more versatile without losing any average damage.

Stalker Intercessors are still Troops though whereas Eliminators are not. That goes a way towards leveling the playing field IMHO.