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Seeing the new codex pushed a lot of Vigilus stuff into the rulebook (with annoying unnecessary nerfs.)

Is the Specialist detachment playable to ignore the stupid changes to these rules. CP economy got rekt in codex.

Technically. Sort of.

A) Not everything transferred over like the Grey Shield thing, the other Chapter Detachments like the Imperial Fist, Space Wolves, etc.

B) Not all Space Marine Detachments are Ultramarines.

C) It's still 8th edition. Technically you could probably make a list using the old codex if you really wanted to pay more points for stuff.

D) Tournament Organizers make their own rules about what is allowed and not above and beyond what GW does.

If I were doing it, I would try and cross the Vigilus/Supplement boundary as little as possible - For example, a Space Marines Detachment could come from the new Shared Space Marines codex, but I wouldn't use one of the new Supplements in addition to Vigilus.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Never mind, I just realized I confused my ebooks. The Vigilus strats are in the generic space marine book not the Supplement. In which case I'd only use the non-UM/generic detachements (i.e. the Imperial Fist one with Fists) with the not yet supplemented chapter they match with or the codex that didn't get an update (i.e. Space Wolves)

I still don't think they're now "illegal" but I think more people - especially in pickup/event stranger games - than not might not want to do that kind of double dipping and I wouldn't want to get too used to it once it does go away.

Once they all have their supplements, I'm guessing the Space Marine part of Vigilus goes away - assuming we aren't into the new campaign/edition by then anyway. My guess is the first codex, and Vigilus goes away, and the Index sticks around for rules for models without rules

I'm not sure if they were trying to get rid of the Index with their first press release they walked back, or if it was a real slipup. But I do think they won't cut off the Index for 8th edition. They're not going to let some armies have their models without rules have rules, and not others. Next Edition we could all be on our own though.

ThatMG wrote:
Seeing the new codex pushed a lot of Vigilus stuff into the rulebook (with annoying unnecessary nerfs.)

Is the Specialist detachment playable to ignore the stupid changes to these rules. CP economy got rekt in codex.

Only if you allow me to use the un-nerfed Commissars and Conscripts.

You have to use the latest rules, that's simply how the game functions.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

ThatMG wrote:
Seeing the new codex pushed a lot of Vigilus stuff into the rulebook (with annoying unnecessary nerfs.)

Is the Specialist detachment playable to ignore the stupid changes to these rules. CP economy got rekt in codex.

Only if you allow me to use the un-nerfed Commissars and Conscripts.

You have to use the latest rules, that's simply how the game functions.

In theory, but not really. I'd imagine a lot of people have never downloaded a FAQ for the very latest rules. Not all of the very latest rules end up in the auto-update of the ebooks either, much to my disappointment. If he never buys the newest codex, he might still get games, its not like he's trying to play a 5e Army in an 8e system.

And they haven't yet been clear on if the 2.0+supplement replaces or... supplements what already existed. And they're unlikely to unilaterally declare Vigilus expired, it has too many Guard/Wolves/Fists/GSC etc detachments in it.

Plus there's going to be some overlap, especially for event planners who want to use an army list tracker/verification of some kind or just wait for the Post Release Beta test to end and pickup games as people who haven't bought it yet trickle in to pick up the book.

My post was in the context that

Codex Space Marines (New) is still RAW valid for Vigilus book.

As the criteria is the same for BOTH new codex and old codex.

There is no rule in the codex to suggest you can't use the Indomitus Crusaders detachment.

The main difference is that the rules for the stratagems have different limitations.

Codex has stupid points cost that I don't understand how they got past playtesting.
Stalker went from 1CP to 3 CP. It's like they don't even understand the cp economy.
1 CP to 2 CP is a significant bump as well.

Also veteran intercessors needing to spend 2 CP for 10 models is asinine.

Does the vigilous detachment reference Codex space marines or Codex Adaptes Astartes Spacemarines.
If it's the later then clearly not as your not using that codex.
Also I'm fairly sure in one of the FAQ's they did say that the newest published version of a unit strategum etc becomes the rules for that going forwards.

Though why they couldn't have just put either something in the codex or in the day 0 FAQ I don't understand.

Neither. It refers to 'Soace Marine Detachments' wnich are defined in both codices.

 Ghaz wrote:
Neither. It refers to 'Soace Marine Detachments' wnich are defined in both codices.

Hum then they shouldn't have ever worked as spacemarine isn't a keyword you can build a detachment of.

Seriously GW's can you just once check these things before you ship us the rules.

Guess we just need to wait for the FAQ team to run around the designers and collect some answers for us.

Ice_can wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
Neither. It refers to 'Soace Marine Detachments' wnich are defined in both codices.

Hum then they shouldn't have ever worked as spacemarine isn't a keyword you can build a detachment of.

Seriously GW's can you just once check these things before you ship us the rules.

Guess we just need to wait for the FAQ team to run around the designers and collect some answers for us.

The Space Marine Codex defines a Space Marine Detachment. It is a thing.

Ice_can wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
Neither. It refers to 'Soace Marine Detachments' wnich are defined in both codices.

Hum then they shouldn't have ever worked as spacemarine isn't a keyword you can build a detachment of.

Seriously GW's can you just once check these things before you ship us the rules.

Guess we just need to wait for the FAQ team to run around the designers and collect some answers for us.

It's not a SPACE MARINES Detachment. It s a 'Space Marines Detachment'. That term is defined on page 194 of the old codex and page 174 of the new codex.

As stated it is keyed to your detachment what is discussed in the relevant section in both books. As such it is still valid RAW to use Vigilus Instead of Codex. Invalidating the cp increases to stratagems in the codex.

The price you pay is Vigilus rules need them to be veteran intercessors the codex does not but the CP is as if they expect us to have 9 loyal 32s in our army to play a damn game.

ThatMG wrote:
As stated it is keyed to your detachment what is discussed in the relevant section in both books. As such it is still valid RAW to use Vigilus Instead of Codex. Invalidating the cp increases to stratagems in the codex.

The price you pay is Vigilus rules need them to be veteran intercessors the codex does not but the CP is as if they expect us to have 9 loyal 32s in our army to play a damn game.

It's a question of how often you're going to use it, and how much you want to pay per use vs pay up front. You're right, the Vigilus stratagem is cheaper. But you're also paying at least two CP up front. And the Vigilus strat only applies to the Veteran Intercessors. You can pay double with the SM stratagem, and not have to pay the 2 up front, or keep track of which intercessors, if any, are veteran or not.

Ironically, you could make your detachment special for a point, make an intercessor squad veteran for a point, and need to use the stratagem on the non-veteran intercessors thus requiring you pay 2 points to use the SM stratagem. This isn't something I'd do halfway.

Breton wrote:

ThatMG wrote:
As stated it is keyed to your detachment what is discussed in the relevant section in both books. As such it is still valid RAW to use Vigilus Instead of Codex. Invalidating the cp increases to stratagems in the codex.

The price you pay is Vigilus rules need them to be veteran intercessors the codex does not but the CP is as if they expect us to have 9 loyal 32s in our army to play a damn game.

It's a question of how often you're going to use it, and how much you want to pay per use vs pay up front. You're right, the Vigilus stratagem is cheaper. But you're also paying at least two CP up front. And the Vigilus strat only applies to the Veteran Intercessors. You can pay double with the SM stratagem, and not have to pay the 2 up front, or keep track of which intercessors, if any, are veteran or not.

Ironically, you could make your detachment special for a point, make an intercessor squad veteran for a point, and need to use the stratagem on the non-veteran intercessors thus requiring you pay 2 points to use the SM stratagem. This isn't something I'd do halfway.

If I am using vigilus veteran intercessors every single unit of them is upgraded. All or nothing, I can see that codex allows you to not need do this.
The issue is when you have 5 Vet Squads of 10 (6 cp vs 10 CP) It''s obscene I personally feel that this is the fault of someone within the ITC/playtesters bunch who have ruined these rules for their bias.

I seem to think the opposite of GW on a lot of calls, so take this with a huge grain of salt, but here is my thinking:

You are supposed to use the newest version of rules/codexes/etc, that's a given. However, what we have is a new codex version, the Vigilus book is still an optional side supplement which has not been replaced nor specifically noted as being obsoleted. This seems the same realm as the indices, which are legal despite being outdated.

No one seems to be talking about all the detachments being rendered obsolete, only the Indomitus. Clearly it should be all or nothing, you can't render one obsolete cause 3/4 of it got reprinted and keep the rest.

If we go from the assumption that Vigilus is legal to use, I'd assume it'd work the same as other cases where there are 2 stratagems that share the same name: You can only use 1 per round and they have to adhere to the restrictions printed in the one you choose.

Ex: You can either pay 2cp to double fire any Intercessor unit or you can pay 1cp for Indomitus, 1cp to upgrade to Vet Intercessors, then pay 1cp to double fire that vet unit.
Yes, this does come out less cp if you wanted to make all your intercessors vets and only ever use strats on vets.

It MIGHT come out as less. It depends on how many Intercessor squads at how many models you have vs how many times you use the strat. Its very easy with the Vigilus costs to pay more upfront than you would have using the Codex Strat.

For sure, which is why I don't see it as particularly imbalanced to leave it legal. If your opponent sees you drop 2-3 cp upfront to make 10 man intercessor units vets, he can also kill them and make you waste all that upfront cost before you make it back in paying less per turn to double shoot.

bort wrote:
For sure, which is why I don't see it as particularly imbalanced to leave it legal. If your opponent sees you drop 2-3 cp upfront to make 10 man intercessor units vets, he can also kill them and make you waste all that upfront cost before you make it back in paying less per turn to double shoot.

Preaching to the choir, I hated that detachment from the beginning anyway. Guard can pull down 15-20 CP wtihout even trying, and their detachment didn't cost them multiple upfront purchases to enable the detach, and keyword each qualifying unit for the eventual stratagem. Space Marines have to work at pulling down 10, and had to pay through the nose just to use the strat even once. I was never impressed with the strat even before they "raised" the price.

So we can use Indominus Crusaders still?

Most of us wouldn't mind, some of us would, none of us are John Q GamesWorkshop to give you an official answer. But again, most of us won't care.

usmcmidn wrote:
So we can use Indominus Crusaders still?

I'd say you can - but you have to pay the new cost for the stratagems. Probably still worth it to get the field commander trait to take another chapter tactic. This will need FAQ though. I'd pay 2 CP to get the iron hands tactic for a turn as ultrmarines and overwatch with 4 units hitting on 5's rerolling all hits. It would be like another shooting phase.

 Xenomancers wrote:

usmcmidn wrote:
So we can use Indominus Crusaders still?

I'd say you can - but you have to pay the new cost for the stratagems. Probably still worth it to get the field commander trait to take another chapter tactic. This will need FAQ though. I'd pay 2 CP to get the iron hands tactic for a turn as ultrmarines and overwatch with 4 units hitting on 5's rerolling all hits. It would be like another shooting phase.

Nah, if you pay the upfront costs, you pay the cheaper stratagem costs, you don't have to mix and match. If you don't pay the upfront costs, you have to pay the new higher costs - again, can't mix and match.

While the new strats share a name and most of a function; they are mechanically different.

Do we need an FAQ stating that they are different strategems? Yes, because we have FAQs that tell us the opposite for other issues(same name, same function, same mechanical difference, but those are equal in cost).

The Indomitus crusade, cheaper versions, only function on VETERAN INTERSESSORS; the new codex, more expensive variants can be any INTERSESSORS.

And to address some other posters: nothing in the Vigilus books are currently out of date; only the Indomitus Crusader detachment has any question to it.

HIWPI: If you are playing an Indomitus detachment, those Vet Intersessors can make use of the cheaper strat. Basically just follow the RAW of the Strats: cheaper is Vet only(which already pays an additional CP), expensive is ad-hoc, any unit(so a second detachment that isn't indomitus).