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The Emperor is usually portrayed in art as similar in size to his Primarchs. While I suppose this can be justified on artistic grounds (it would seem odd if the Emperor were dwarfed by pretty much all of his closest subordinates), it doesn't really add up, since he was the creator of space marines and therefore not a space marine himself.

So was he just naturally eight feet tall and ridiculously ripped? Was he some kind of "natural space marine", a one-in-a-billion genetic freak, in addition to his psychic abilities?

Or did he use his scientific knowledge to increase his own body size? (But even then, one wonders why the Primarchs wouldn't still be even bigger, since they were genetically engineered from birth.)

.

The answer is in his psychic abilities. Shifting size and form is well within the purview of such powers.

Psychic glamour. He could make himself appear how he wanted to pretty much anyone with the strength of his psychic abilities. There are even indications that this ability wasn't even conscious on the emperor's part, that he was so psychically powerful that his outward appearance sort of "conformed" to how people thought he should look.

I remember reading one bit of lore about the sisters of silence (who are pretty much immune to being touched by psychic phenomena) seeing a tired old man when they looked at him.

w1zard wrote:
I remember reading one bit of lore about the sisters of silence (who are pretty much immune to being touched by psychic phenomena) seeing a tired old man when they looked at him.

That's actually pretty cool. He would be weary, after all those years of war and trying to hold a vast empire together, and I like the idea of him as a human being rather than a demigod. The fact that he still fought and killed Horus in single combat is a testament to his willpower.

w1zard wrote:


I remember reading one bit of lore about the sisters of silence (who are pretty much immune to being touched by psychic phenomena) seeing a tired old man when they looked at him.

This is some of my favorite lore about the emperor.

I kinda figure it's like Allmight. He can put up a show as the big buff hero, but in reality he's a frail, aging man.

-Guardsman- wrote:
The Emperor is usually portrayed in art as similar in size to his Primarchs. While I suppose this can be justified on artistic grounds (it would seem odd if the Emperor were dwarfed by pretty much all of his closest subordinates), it doesn't really add up, since he was the creator of space marines and therefore not a space marine himself.

So was he just naturally eight feet tall and ridiculously ripped? Was he some kind of "natural space marine", a one-in-a-billion genetic freak, in addition to his psychic abilities?

Or did he use his scientific knowledge to increase his own body size? (But even then, one wonders why the Primarchs wouldn't still be even bigger, since they were genetically engineered from birth.)

.

Well first of all, to be the size of a Primarch he would have to be ten feet tall or so, that being seemingly average height for a Primarch.

And it's due to his psychic powers. He can wear a glamor to appear differently if he so desires, or outright use biomancy to change his size like Magnus does on several occasions.

Being essentially the most powerful psyker in known galactic history of any species his capabilities were essentially godlike, so changing size is a small matter for him.

w1zard wrote:

I remember reading one bit of lore about the sisters of silence (who are pretty much immune to being touched by psychic phenomena) seeing a tired old man when they looked at him.

The flipside of that one is the Last Church, where he appears disguised as normal sized human, but there are a couple of references to him seeming to be larger/heavier than he appears

 insaniak wrote:

w1zard wrote:

I remember reading one bit of lore about the sisters of silence (who are pretty much immune to being touched by psychic phenomena) seeing a tired old man when they looked at him.

The flipside of that one is the Last Church, where he appears disguised as normal sized human, but there are a couple of references to him seeming to be larger/heavier than he appears

I mean, I suppose he can be large, but not inhumanly so.

I always interpreted it as a result of his psychic powers. Specifically biomancy. He basically used his powers to change himself physically so it’s not just a glamour. Then in the scene in the last church he really is physically the size of a Primarch but is using glamour to appear as a normal sized human.

I remember reading one bit of lore about the sisters of silence (who are pretty much immune to being touched by psychic phenomena) seeing a tired old man when they looked at him.

Thing is, we're talking about the Emperor here, the most powerful psychic entity to ever walk the Materium. I have trouble believing that a "regular" Sister would be completely immune to such a powerful force to the point of seeing beyong the ocuntless layers of glamour, telepathic suggestion and psykic disguise Big E wove around himself. Also, do not forget that this is how ONE specific Sister of Silence sees him, with no confirmation from any of her colleagues. ADB himself made it pretty clear that no character who sees the Emperor in Master of Mankind is to be taken as a reliable and objective narrator. Beyond that, even if a Sister of Silence were immune to the psychic glamour, what she sees would be the Emperor augmented through biomancy, which would be actual physical alteration of his body and would probably not be that of an old man.

So there is no particular reason to assume that the Emperor "real" form (as if there is such a thing) is that of a suffering old man on a chair.

 slave.entity wrote:

w1zard wrote:


I remember reading one bit of lore about the sisters of silence (who are pretty much immune to being touched by psychic phenomena) seeing a tired old man when they looked at him.

This is some of my favorite lore about the emperor.

Yep, same. Very cool. Much better than him actually being a shiny golden megaboss.

In the original background, he, the primarchs and space marines were more or less normal sized.

They increased the size a little, but not to absurdity it is today, when expanding the space marine fluff.

Later, a load of inflation fetishists were allowed to write novels about them, and 8'+ marines became a thing and we have ended up with the nonsense we have today.

Engrenages wrote:
Beyond that, even if a Sister of Silence were immune to the psychic glamour,

Which is their whole thing! And when one is immune to psychic power, I doubt even a very powerful psyker makes a difference. It's like deafness. Some people are merely hard of hearing, but others are completely deaf and cannot even conceive the concept of sound.

Besides, I can see no reason why the Emperor would deliberately make himself look weak in front of a servant, so if he SEEMS weak, it's more likely than not that he is, at the very least, weaker than he lets on (weakness being relative here). Which is not a knock against him. On the contrary, I think he's far more interesting and admirable as a character if he keeps soldiering on even as he's dying inside and out, than if he's an almighty demigod whose exploits are effortless.

 Daba wrote:
Later, a load of inflation fetishists were allowed to write novels about them, and 8'+ marines became a thing and we have ended up with the nonsense we have today.

Yeah, bigger might LOOK better on the tabletop, but fluff-wise, there's a point where large size would become a hindrance more than anything else. What if space marines lose their own aircraft and have to evacuate a battlefield via Valkyrie, only to find they can't even fit inside a transport intended for regular-sized soldiers?

.

 Daba wrote:
In the original background, he, the primarchs and space marines were more or less normal sized.

They increased the size a little, but not to absurdity it is today, when expanding the space marine fluff.

Later, a load of inflation fetishists were allowed to write novels about them, and 8'+ marines became a thing and we have ended up with the nonsense we have today.

This. Somehow or other around 3rd edition humans mysteriously became Orks. For some reason people can't conceive of Astartes as being big without being tall. There's a great picture out there of Andre the Giant and Kareem Abdul-Jabar holding Arnold Schwarzenegger up between them. They're roughly of a height, but Andre is about twice as wide. He's what I think of when I think Astartes. Human-sized, but bulked out and hardened.

Interestingly in A Thousand Sons they have the giant Magnus appear even larger depending on how he's manifesting his psychic might, and in his duel with Leman Russ both appear far larger than normal.

Mind you, Warhammer 40,000 isn't a universe where reality is particularly real any more.

For those wondering where the bit of lore is where a Sister of Silence looks at the Emperor and sees an old man, checkout "Master of Mankind".

It's later on in the book, but is a good read besides that. My favorite parts is it explaining how the Emperor is at constant war with the Chaos Gods. Additionally, it explains a lot of the Emperor's motivations in regards to the Primarchs.

 insaniak wrote:

w1zard wrote:

I remember reading one bit of lore about the sisters of silence (who are pretty much immune to being touched by psychic phenomena) seeing a tired old man when they looked at him.

The flipside of that one is the Last Church, where he appears disguised as normal sized human, but there are a couple of references to him seeming to be larger/heavier than he appears

It's actually the other way around; the last church is him not glamouring everyone. When Corax meets him for the first time, he sees someone basically identical to 'revalation' and the Emperor is surprised he could do that.

Engrenages wrote:
Thing is, we're talking about the Emperor here, the most powerful psychic entity to ever walk the Materium. I have trouble believing that a "regular" Sister would be completely immune to such a powerful force to the point of seeing beyong the ocuntless layers of glamour, telepathic suggestion and psykic disguise Big E wove around himself.

Eh, the lore is pretty inconsistent here. Some lore states that psychic blanks are straight up immune to psychic phenomena no matter how powerful, as in can face-tank a psychic blast from a greater daemon and wouldn't even be aware that it happened unless they saw it coming towards them. Other lore portrays them as merely strongly resistant to psychic phenomena, and strong enough psychic powers can still affect them (Magnus during the burning of Prospero when he was going full tilt).

Engrenages wrote:
Also, do not forget that this is how ONE specific Sister of Silence sees him, with no confirmation from any of her colleagues. ADB himself made it pretty clear that no character who sees the Emperor in Master of Mankind is to be taken as a reliable and objective narrator.

Fair point... But it is safe to assume that due to being a psychic blank, this particular sister is the most reliable out of the group of unreliable narrators.

Engrenages wrote:
Beyond that, even if a Sister of Silence were immune to the psychic glamour, what she sees would be the Emperor augmented through biomancy, which would be actual physical alteration of his body and would probably not be that of an old man.

Not if the alterations that were done through biomancy were only being "sustained" by psychic will and not "permanent". Remember, we don't exactly know how biomancy works, it is totally plausible that a psychic blank could "see" the true and original form of a psyker who modified his body through biomancy.

Engrenages wrote:
So there is no particular reason to assume that the Emperor "real" form (as if there is such a thing) is that of a suffering old man on a chair.

Who said a suffering old man on a chair? The impression I got from reading that piece of lore was merely a man who looked to be in his mid-60s who looked exhausted and overworked. Think Magneto rather than Palpatine.

locarno24 wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

w1zard wrote:

I remember reading one bit of lore about the sisters of silence (who are pretty much immune to being touched by psychic phenomena) seeing a tired old man when they looked at him.

The flipside of that one is the Last Church, where he appears disguised as normal sized human, but there are a couple of references to him seeming to be larger/heavier than he appears

It's actually the other way around; the last church is him not glamouring everyone. When Corax meets him for the first time, he sees someone basically identical to 'revalation' and the Emperor is surprised he could do that.

No, it really isn't. The biggest tell off the top of my head was a mention of the priest puzzling at the strained noises the chair was making when his visitor sat down. The implication throughout the story is that the Emperor was making himself appear to the priest as being smaller than he actually is.

Engrenages wrote:

Thing is, we're talking about the Emperor here, the most powerful psychic entity to ever walk the Materium

There is no objective statement that says this. The old ones psychically engineered the webway and were an entire species of immortal psychic demi gods. The emperor uses tonka trucks to bore his way into the webway to use it poorly

Engrenages wrote:

So there is no particular reason to assume that the Emperor "real" form (as if there is such a thing) is that of a suffering old man on a chair.

Psychic powers notwithstanding, the emperor IS a genetic human being. He was born from woman in 8000 BCE in Anatolia. His soul might have been unusual (and perhaps closer to a possession than a 'natural' soul), but he was born as human being.

He certainly has the psychic might to augment his body - so no doubt the emperor knew how to use psychic energy to enbiggen himself. Psychic powers are deliberate things though, not unconscious abilities. Even the emperor wouldn't be able to maintain continuous warp juicing while unconscious.

He wasn't genetically engineered from scratch like his primarchs, with artificial organs etc. Unless the emperor performed post human surgery on himself, his biology should be that of a normal person.


The one unique thing about the emperor (amongst humans at least) is that his soul is a gestalt of an unknown number of paleolithic shamen/psykers. So he has a lot of potent psychic energy at his disposal.

something to consider - up until the great crusade the emperor remained in the shadows, guiding humanity from behind the curtain. He did not make a spectacle of himself - which would be very hard not to do if you were an 8ft+ demi god striding downtown Manhattan.

The Emperor is not just the man he was born as all those millennia ago. Since his birth he has had multiple psychic awakenings.

Furthermore he had access to incredible tech and knowledge. Prior to the Great Crusade he filled the role of a techno barbarian warlord.

He had close tutelage under many other powerful individuals.

It seems reasonable in his long and varied life he would have been subject to all sorts of enhancements, whether scientific, psychic or otherwise.

Perhaps such an enhancement is his perceived size and physicality? It's been referred to as psychic, but I suspect there is a gene-engineered aspect too on account of the source of geneseed claimed by Grey Knights. This is before considering possible surgical enhancements.

Finally, he is incredibly old. What's not to say after the ageing process is complete and centuries or millennia are passed perhaps the body loops round into a second childhood or adolescent period of growth?

-Guardsman- wrote:
What if space marines lose their own aircraft and have to evacuate a battlefield via Valkyrie, only to find they can't even fit inside a transport intended for regular-sized soldiers?

Last time I checked Space Marines have knees and can bend down, two important techniques that (spoiler alert!) allow people to change their height. Inconceivable, I know

Also, funnily enough, when Codex Inquisition was a thing, Chimera was one of the best Terminator transports because it can take 6 of them for cheap combined with pretty OK gun suite. It's funny to recall IG vehicles transporting bulkiest SM no problem seeing modern idiotic restrictions on what SM transport can take aboard what...

Nurglitch wrote:
For some reason people can't conceive of Astartes as being big without being tall.

Because human anatomy is a thing and there is actually very narrow window as to how much you can bulk stuff out?

Take thighs for example. Bulk them just a tiny bit and you have problems even walking in skinny jeans, never mind SM armour. At that point, you'd need to either castrate SM and surgically remove anything that gets in the way, or cut pelvis apart and shove metal extension inside because human skeleton was never designed to fit that much muscle bulk. Increasing height is vastly simpler and more elegant solution because volume of muscle goes up in a cube with linear size growth...

Primaris Reivers can fit in a vendetta. at least according to one of the vigilis stories. take from that what you will.

Who knows how/what BiggiE has done to themselves. I mean he's supposedly 48k years old. How much natural power he had, how much genetic editing he did, how much power he gained when he went thru the gate on Molech & how much of it was technological?

The biggest thing would be maybe at this point(pre-golden throne) there can be no difference between what is psy/tech/biomancy about him and what is not. He may be at some level baseline human, but at what point does the modified end and the innate begin?

There are too many varied and differing accounts of what he looks like and of them seem to be reasonable. Maybe since he's so far above and beyond what a current (pre-augmentation) human is that he does not have to try to conceal/alter his appearance. His "aura" of command (for lack of a better term) would have those whom are not psykers just see what they think the Emperor should look like, all huge, imposing and golden. Varying levels of psykers would see a more enhanced view of him since they see in both the material plane & the warp. Like how daemons cannot even look at him much less be anywhere near him.

Primarchs are a weird case, in the founding stories of each one, they view him based on their visions/what he wants them to see.
He the Outlander, the angel & to Corax has an older man. Corax is probably the one version that a blank/pariah would see(I guess)? They might even just see nothing, like he's there and they know he's there but are basically looking at a black hole?

Who know what the Siege of Terra books bring forth? I'm looking forward to more Malcador & BiggiE one on one conversations. It'll also be cool to see how Horus fully powered by chaos sees BiggiE.

Because the Emperor is a big guy (for you)
Seriously though, one of his skills was biomancy, iirc. He can literally make himself huge. He also has some illusion magic up his sleeve.

 insaniak wrote:

locarno24 wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

w1zard wrote:

I remember reading one bit of lore about the sisters of silence (who are pretty much immune to being touched by psychic phenomena) seeing a tired old man when they looked at him.

The flipside of that one is the Last Church, where he appears disguised as normal sized human, but there are a couple of references to him seeming to be larger/heavier than he appears

It's actually the other way around; the last church is him not glamouring everyone. When Corax meets him for the first time, he sees someone basically identical to 'revalation' and the Emperor is surprised he could do that.

No, it really isn't. The biggest tell off the top of my head was a mention of the priest puzzling at the strained noises the chair was making when his visitor sat down. The implication throughout the story is that the Emperor was making himself appear to the priest as being smaller than he actually is.

Or hiding the fact he was in power armour.

Psykers as powerful as the Emperor, Magnus, and Malcador can essentially change their physical appearance at will, make you see things they want you to and can alter your memories.

I always liked the idea of the Emperor's true "form" assuming he has one, as a perfectly average and unremarkable human being, someone who you wouldn't give a second thought to if you passed him on the street or sat down next to at a local cafe. He blended in with humanity for a long.