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Hello!

I'd like to begin building a non-primaris (ideally) Astartes killteam that specializes in close combat.

My thoughts so far for the 125p team (we don't play rosters)

Tactics: Black templars
Leader: Terminator sergeant with bolter / power sword
Combat: Vanguard sergeant with chainsword / storm-shield // pistol (5 chainsword attacks - anti-horde)
Zealot: Vanguard veteran with power sword / storm shield
Veteran: Vanguard veteran with thunder hammer / storm-shield + jumppack
???

Any suggestions? I never played Marines before, so I have no experience with them.

My idea I came up with. 6 models, no Terminator

+ Leader +

Sternguard Sergeant [17pts]: Auspex, Black Templars, Power sword, Special-issue boltgun
. Leader

+ Specialists +

Company Veteran [19pts]: Black Templars, Plasma gun, Power sword
. Sniper

Vanguard Sergeant [33pts]: Black Templars, Jump Pack, Storm shield, Thunder hammer
. Combat

Vanguard Veteran [19pts]: Black Templars, Power sword, Storm shield
. Zealot

+ Non-specialists +

Vanguard Veteran [18pts]: Black Templars, Chainsword, Storm shield

Vanguard Veteran [18pts]: Black Templars, Chainsword, Storm shield

++ Total: [124pts] ++

I haven't played with marines. I've played against primaris intercessors. I've only used Thousand Sons.
I'd suggest it's not a great idea to skip the shooting phase entirely- leaving yourself vulnerable to getting shot off the board by light weapons.

Its a really small team as well. If you play with enough cover then i guess this could work? Post pics of what you settle on

The relic sword is a bargain at 3 points.

Thoughts:

Giving the plasma gunner a power sword feels like a waste; hopefully you'll never use it, and even if someone does try to kill him off, you've got sarge there to protect him.

The plasma gunner is a good idea - having at least one model who can hang back and hold a 'home' objective is a good idea and clicking the gun to supercharge gives you a 'screw you' shot for putting nobz and primaris down and making sure they stay down.

I think you may have gone too heavy on storm shields. I get wanting them on specialists, but storm shields on the generic guys has cost you 10 points - nearly enough for another marine - and....how often do they matter that much?

I agree a bit more firepower might be good. There will be times that melee power alone won't be good enough without someone either 'tough' or 'expendable' - imagine trying to take a position protected by someone with a frag cannon, for example.

Is this better?


++ Kill Team List (Adeptus Astartes) [125pts] ++
+ Leader +

Sternguard Sergeant [16pts]: Auspex, Black Templars, Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Special-issue boltgun
. Leader

+ Specialists +

Company Veteran [18pts]: Black Templars, Chainsword, Plasma gun
. Sniper
Vanguard Sergeant [22pts]: Black Templars, Relic blade, Storm shield
. Zealot
Vanguard Veteran [28pts]: Black Templars, Grav-pistol, Jump Pack, Thunder hammer
. Combat

+ Non-specialists +

Sternguard Veteran [15pts]: Black Templars, Storm bolter
Vanguard Veteran [13pts]: Black Templars, Bolt pistol, Chainsword
Vanguard Veteran [13pts]: Black Templars, Bolt pistol, Chainsword

++ Total: [125pts] ++

I plan to use Intercessors, despite not playing them at all, along with those heads and some other thematic bits, like round shields. Although, I'd like some suggestions on shoulder pads. original FW are out of queston due to the price.

I think it you might still be hurting for bodies and things have a very good chance of things going sideways on you if you lose either of you melee specialists.

I think you are going to have a rough time with Grey Knights and Thousands (but that was probably a given). You have to be careful and lucky versus Death Guard, Tyranids and Orks all of which will have numbers to aid them controlling how and where CQC happens.

All in all, it is probably better than my Reiver Sgt and all Intercessor 125 pt team, and I can do okay with them.

What about this?

Sternguard Sergeant with special boltgun, power sword and auspex as a leader
+++
Sternguard gunner with HBolter as Heavy
Company Veteran with Plasma gun as Sniper
Vanguard sergeant with Thunder hammer, grav pistol, and jump pack as Combat
+++
Company Veteran with boltgun and chainsword
Sternguard Veteran with Storm Bolter
Veteran Sergeant with bolt pistol and power axe

[125/125] 7 models in total
4 shooters, 2 melees, meatshield

Thinking about chapter tactics, would White Scars, Iron Hands or Salamanders fit the best?


--------------------------------------------
Take two:

Sternguard Sergeant with special boltgun, power sword and auspex as a leader
+++
Sternguard gunner with Heavy Bolter (2 spare points) / Flamer / Gravgun as Heavy or Demo with the flamer
Company Veteran with Plasma gun as Sniper
Vanguard sergeant with Thunder hammer, grav pistol, and jump pack as Combat
+++
Company Veteran with boltgun and power sword
Company Veteran with boltgun and power sword
Company Veteran with storm bolter and chainsword

[125/125] 7 models in total
3 shooters, 2 melees, 2 meatshields

I still think you don't have enough marines to tackle a lot of the mission types. I also think you are adding weapons that you don't necessarily need unless they are just extra points you happen to have available.

My last game was Fallen (Dark Angels). While a lot of the list revolved around making it feel like Dark Angels (and the limited 7th edition build fallen I have), here is what I had:

Leader: Tactical Sgt with Plasma Pistol and Auspex
Comms: Tactical Marine
Combat: Company Vet Sgt with Power Sword and Storm Shield
Sniper: Tactical Gunner with Missile Launcher

Company Vet with Plasmagun
Tactical Gunner with Plasmagun
Company Vet
Company Vet

In my list from that game I liked the Tactical Sgt with Auspex. The plasma pistol was a waste but it is very Dark Angels. I really like Comms specialists with Space Marines. I just would prefer having the Auspex with Comms for one-stop-shopping of super shooting when you absolutely want to kill an enemy model. A more effective idea might be to go Scout Sgt to get the absolutely cheapest Leader you can to hold backfield objectives and keep those 2 CP flowing (Death Denied is awesome but expensive). That way you can have a basic Tac Sgt with Auspex and Comms; the Auspex does limit weapon options so maybe your veteran Auspex and Comms marine works better. Just the same, I like to keep my Comms guy cheap. Smart opponents are already gunning for him I don't need to lose good weapons too.

Obviously, no matter what you are going to have Combat specialist in a melee focused team. I personally am a big fan of the power sword for marines (well Dark Angels). I think the Relic Blade on a Vanguard Sgt Combat specialist is more than enough of a power house and saves you 5 points over the thunder hammer. Most things in Kill Team are wounded on 3s and 4s by marines. Saves and Injury Rolls are usually the hang ups on removing models. A Power Sword makes even the best saves more likely to no happen than happen and Relic Blades have a chance to generate more injury dice to get the killing blow. I just think the Thunder Hammer is overkill and potentially a waste if the wielder starts racking up flesh wounds.

I am a fan of missile launchers in Kill Team. They have some risk in not being enough AP but tend to generate enough injury dice that if you get to that point that enemy model is no more. Plus, I like the frag option since the best Kill Team factions are the ones that have elite and chaff options. At the same time, I think the plasmagun is a solid budget choice for tactical gunners. Heavy Bolters are an okay option and just scary enough to have MEQ not want to get shot by them too often as they won't be able to soak all the shots all game. Still, I think the plasmagun is generally better since you can make wound on a 2+ on everything one way or another without resorting to Demo specialist. Plus, you are almost robbing Saves from everyone and the option for 2 damage does make Injury Rolls go better.

Since you want to go melee, see how many Vanguard Vets with plasma pistols and power swords you can get. That combination is basically the price of an Intercessor and as long as you can get them into melee they should be doing good work for you. At very least, you don't have to worry about getting bogged down in melee since a supercharged plasma pistol shot probably is 3+, 2+, No Save/6+, Two Injury dice. Since it is a single shot, easy enough to spend the CP to prevent melting. Finally, Chainswords aren't the worst. I find they just take longer to get through melee and hence risk you losing in CQC.

So, Even though you want a close combat marine team, I would suggest having a solid ranged plan. Marines shoot better than they fight and can wield some devastating ranged weapons to help their assault units close the distance. Try and be as frugal with weapon options as you can. Marines have a lot to pick from, but they are paying guard prices for bodies so they have to be careful to have the men to get the job done. Most good kill teams are looking to prevent easy the opponent from Saves and remove rather than injure on Elite teams where the loss of one or two units leaves them crippled. At 100 points 7 marines is fine. At 125, you a little closer than I would like to the really big heavy hitter elite teams that usually expect to remove 1 to 2 models (and 3 is uncommon) a round.

That is my point of view. I am playing in a very nid, MEQ meta and the group is still a ways away from optimized teams.

P. S. I don't have any experience with jump packs in Kill Team. They seem awfully expensive for what they give you. I mean they make getting pass overwatch good, but I might consider taking White Scars or Black Templars if that is an issue and I need those points to get another marine. But like I said, I don't have any experience with them. Plus, I probably play on denser tables where outside the occasional warpflamer it isn't extraordinary hard to pull off the assault. I also like gang violence to tri-corner my victim too.

Oh, how about this list:

Black Templars

Leader: Scout Sgt

Combat: Vanguard Sgt with Relic Blade
Comms: Tac Sgt with Auspex
Sniper: Tac Gun with Plasmagun

Tac Gun with Heavy Bolter
Vanguard with Power Sword
Vanguard with Power Sword
Vanguard with Chain Sword
Scout

It is probably more balanced than you are looking for, but I would still consider this a melee heavy marine list. I threw the scout in at the end less for the extra body and more to show how many points you have to work with if you want more gear. I made the Black Templars since they feel pretty BL to me. Just say it is an Initiate's (or whatever the BT call them) test to become a full battle brother or something.

This list looks fine, but as you said, more balanced than I look for, haha.

I made a few changes to my liking based on your suggestion to spare some points, like replacing some Sterns with Tactical marines. The +1A and +1Ld won't be missed much on them.

I know you are not a fan of the thunder hammer and I'll save plenty of points removing him, but I love the concept and the model, so I just want it to try. If it proves to be useless, I'll switch it for something else, though.


Chapter: Black Templars (possibly)
Leader: Sternguard Sgt - Auspex, Chainsword, Storm bolter (17)

Sniper: Tactical Gunner - Plasma Gun (16)
Comms: Sternguard Vet - Special Boltgun (14)
Combat: Vanguard Sgt - Thunder Hammer, Bolt Pistol (22)

Tactical Gunner - Heavy Bolter (16)
Company Vet - Boltgun, Chainsword (13)
Company Vet - Boltgun, Chainsword (13)
???

[111/125] (14)

Now I can get a basic scout and upgrade the company vets with storm bolters or power weapons or take another company vet, leaving me with 1 spare point. Or something else.
Auspex and Comms specialists are divided for a reason, so I won't lose both things for one dead model.

Minotaurs are not exclusively melee, they rely on brute force, so both ton of shooting and then chainswords roaring. No subtlety, just carnage and bloodbath.

My gut feeling is that Adeptus Astartes marines should have 7 to 8 members in a team at 125pts. Again, I think they should have a fair amount of ranged power (ranged being where they are more powerful) even in a melee strong team too. My reason is that I really do think space marines should play to their flexibility and not skew too low in numbers or too deep in CQC.

I think having 7 team members with help out far more than the previous lists since it helps maintain mission flexibility and give you a much better chance of fighting should a freak attack take a unit or two early. Having the Bolter and chainsword core will also offer a bit of flexibility though vs. 3+ Save teams they will probably be slow to kill.

I like the idea of the Thunderhammer, and I even make use of it in my Grey Knight teams. It looks cool and can be the final word in every Kill Team fight. However, for pure effectiveness, I find it a little overkill like the chainfist and powerfist. If you like thunderhammers, I do suggest taking them. You are losing a like 1-2 points including it so it isn't like you are crippling yourself including one.