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Before I start this conversation, this is NOT a bait thread.

I think that we can all agree that most of the T'au faction are a ranged powerhouse, but on the flip-side a lot of people think that they are weak in close combat. Looking at the base line stats for Aun'Shi, the T'au have a great potential for melee. WS 2+, T 3, STR 3, W5 4++, S +6. Now look at the Harlequins, who are well known for melee combat. Similar stats. There seems to be a fluff reason for them being weaker in combat, due to their size (4-5 feet tall) and a strongly deterred from melee combat due to it being 'uncivilized'. A lot of factions out there seem to have a wide range of units that can be picked, whether melee or ranged shooting, but with the T'au, there seems to be a total focus on shooting. If there is anything that the T'au need, they need a viable melee unit that can bridge the gap. Aun'Shi proved that melee can work for the T'au.

Thoughts, comments, critiques?

I think the Kroot and Vespid were supposed to fill that role, but they are so completely unsupported by the rules that no one bothers to use them.*

Also, how many attacks does Aunshi have? That plays a bigger role in CC competency than any other stat. If Ork Boyz only had 1 Attack, they'd be terrible at CC. Like it or not, 8th edition is all about volume of dice.

*no one is a generalization and may not reflect your experiences or the "top lists".

 flandarz wrote:
I think the Kroot and Vespid were supposed to fill that role, but they are so completely unsupported by the rules that no one bothers to use them.*

Also, how many attacks does Aunshi have? That plays a bigger role in CC competency than any other stat.

Agreed. I hope that GW will fix this issue in a future codex or auxiliary supplement. Aun'Shi has 5 attacks I believe.

Oh please. You're going to base your argument that Tau (in general) could excel in melee on 1 named characters stats?

This is what makes Aun'Shi a special character vs just another Ethereal or commander or such. He does something exceptional/different than the majority of the army.
The majority of the force? It's designed to rely heavily upon ranged fire power because they aren't great at melee.

Oh, and people don't think Tau are bad at melee, they know it. Because they look at the stats.

I did enjoy the ideas in Farsight Enclave in 4th straying from the norm, if they built more on that kind of style could be fun. Also another way to approach it might be monks of some kind that are in relation to Ethereals. Aspiring Ethereal that kind of thing could have a whole remote monastery vibe going on with a few units of melee. The problem is how to counter weight it like 4th ed did with Enclave. If you took Enclave you lost drone use so give and take but I think it could be good but it could make T'au OP as well so it would need to be done with serious care.

ccs wrote:
Oh please. You're going to base your argument that Tau (in general) could excel in melee on 1 named characters stats?

This is what makes Aun'Shi a special character vs just another Ethereal or commander or such. He does something exceptional/different than the majority of the army.
The majority of the force? It's designed to rely heavily upon ranged fire power because they aren't great at melee.

Oh, and people don't think Tau are bad at melee, they know it. Because they look at the stats.

All I am saying is that, with the proper training in combat arts, there could be an Aun'Shi-styled combat squad, but they are dissuaded from doing so for fluff purposes (‘uncivilized’ acts that the Kroot or other auxiliaries are recruited for). Sure, they wouldn't be a Khorne Bezerker, but at least give them something to help them ward off fast-paced melee units (or at least try to). I know their stats aren't great, but again, Aun’Shi is proof that it can be done.

I think Tau could be more if they did more with the alien allies to their empire. I'm of the pro alien coalition camp. I haven plenty of Tau army units, gimmie them aliens !! the other ones..ya know the ones who join the empire..that aren't just Tau..hell gimmie more kroot in plastic too..please..

yeah I'd love to see the Tau empire turned into a faction comparable to chaos and even the Imperium insofar as subfactions go.

Although I'm not a Tau player, I think it would be great if the alien colonial troops of the Tau were made as viable options. Play up the whole Imperialism/Colonialism theme. Like how the British Empire at its height had Gurkhas, Sikhs, various African Askari regiments etcetera, not to mention the Army of the Raj (India - the Jewel in the Crown). So too the Tau would have its human gue'vasa regiments, Vespid squadrons, Kroot commando etcetera, etcetera. That would provide great scope for customization and modeling.

However, I'm sure the economic reality is that GW will not do this as the return on expenses would not be enough compared with going with Imperium factions. Also, the days when GW encouraged the customer to be creative and kitbash from scratch are long gone. (I have the WD from Rogue Trader days when they taught you how to make a grav-tank out of an anti-perspirant container. They'd not let you use that at a GW store or event now!)

BrianDavion wrote:
yeah I'd love to see the Tau empire turned into a faction comparable to chaos and even the Imperium insofar as subfactions go.

I'd long thought that the Farsight Enclaves were more geared towards melee combat, but that just might be Farsight himself. If that is the case, it would have very appealing to see a split of the Tau codex/Farsight enclaves where the stats were tweaked so that the enclaves excelled at CQC - very short ranged weapons and better/wider array of melee weapons.

I would also like to see the Kroot be revised so they're better than merely average at close combat.

My impression (personal opinion) is, that the Tau's fluff reason for their heavy reliance on shooting is their very limited numbers compared to factions like Orks, Tyranids and Humans coupled with their high technology level. While a pulse rifle as individual weapon is significantly better than a lasgun or boltgun it is not that easy to get a significant advantage in melee just using technology if you are a small little tau. Furthermore relying on shooting you MIGHT get out of battles without or at least with minimal losses, while in melee this is comparatively unlikely - which is very important for a race so far outnumbered.

Therefore I personally would think the Tau would strongly prefer their auxiliaries as CC troops. Or they develop a kind of CC drone, which would also be expendable enough compared to a real Tau. Doesn't even sound to farfetched. Strap some chainsaws and a demolition charge on a drone, fly it into the enemy lashing out in every direction and blow itself up when it is to damaged.

I think Tau lack a psychic unit more than a melee one personally. Hopefully this is addressed in the upcoming Psychic Awakening.

Tau will never have the melee ability of Orks or jacked up SM or even Catachans, it's kind of their theme at this point.

Personly i do not want to see them get a Melee unit, chercters are fine.
But i find 40k melee kinda boring, and would rather them keep there ranged warfare as a solid theme.
At most, give the breacher units something for Close combat as a upgrade to the unit.

I wouldn’t mind an extension of the alien auxiliary units available to the tau and give them some more close combat specialists.

Edit: Speaking of close combat, ever noticed how farsight the red close combat specialist has a group of legendary elite tau called the eight?

This was explained away in previous editions codex's.
Tau can do CC and are trsined in it but on the 40k scale they are bad.
Kroot used to have lots of attacks and strength bonuses and vonuses for hounds in the unit etc.
The issue is that Kroot became terrible at that role in the change to 8th, Kroot are the unit you have described if they had rules worthwhile.

Ice_can wrote:
This was explained away in previous editions codex's.
Tau can do CC and are trsined in it but on the 40k scale they are bad.
Kroot used to have lots of attacks and strength bonuses and vonuses for hounds in the unit etc.
The issue is that Kroot became terrible at that role in the change to 8th, Kroot are the unit you have described if they had rules worthwhile.

Tau military doctrine (at least originally) was fairly sensible unlike the rest of the factions in 40k. Using superior firepower to defeat your opponents from range, utilizing combined arms tactics with air and space navy support to deal with a variety of targets, and a strong focus on using technology and teamwork to overcome the limited capabilities of the individual Tau soldier. Why would you bother equipping your soldiers with advanced (and expensive) melee weapons when their guns are far more deadly and practical. Only reason the Ethereals are "good" at melee combat is because they practice it as some sort of political / tradition / leisure activity where as the Fire Caste are generally more concerned with training how to better soldier with all their tech, guns, suits, tanks, etc.

At least in 6th/7th Fire Warriors weren't horrible in melee combat when you took into consideration their 4+ armor and defensive grenades which could cut a unit's number of attacks on the charge in half. Obviously against dedicated melee units Fire Warriors don't stand much of a chance but charging anything into Fire Warriors isn't an automatic win. Back in the day Fire Warriors with an Ethereal nearby giving them leadership 10 and potentially stubborn made them a decent tarpit.

Only thing i could see Tau doing with melee is either using their auxiliaries (GW learn to write better rules so things like Kroot can be actually useful) or perhaps making dedicated melee suits. Something like a XV8 that has a melee weapon, a powerful shield (aka a storm shield), stim injectors, and one of those grav field inhibitors that slow down enemy movement. I could see the Tau justifying using such suits to engage a target to delay them while the ranged elements can maneuver away from the threat and reengage after the disruption suit either disengaged from melee (hit and run or fly) or is slain.

 flandarz wrote:
I think the Kroot and Vespid were supposed to fill that role, but they are so completely unsupported by the rules that no one bothers to use them.*

I have them and use them frequently, as do all of the other T'au players in my area. Don't present your very narrow experience and opinion as fact.

Melee battlesuits would be cool. A riptide with some crazy fusion sword is easy to envision.

murphs wrote:
Melee battlesuits would be cool. A riptide with some crazy fusion sword is easy to envision.

No. One of the major themes of the Tau is that they despise melee combat, seeing it as barbaric. Farsight is an exception, not a rule.
Leave melee combat to the auxiliaries, which is what GW should be focusing on instead of yet more battlesuits.

 Hollow wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
I think the Kroot and Vespid were supposed to fill that role, but they are so completely unsupported by the rules that no one bothers to use them.*

I have them and use them frequently, as do all of the other T'au players in my area. Don't present your very narrow experience and opinion as fact.

Kroot or vespid as while I have kroot they do so badly that I feel i'm better of just taking more Firewarriors as troopa tax units over ecen a singke kroot.
I can't remember seeing anyone using them in 8th either outside of someone doing some whacky for the lolz list

Ice_can wrote:
This was explained away in previous editions codex's.
Tau can do CC and are trsined in it but on the 40k scale they are bad.
Kroot used to have lots of attacks and strength bonuses and vonuses for hounds in the unit etc.
The issue is that Kroot became terrible at that role in the change to 8th, Kroot are the unit you have described if they had rules worthwhile.

Kroot really suffered from a schizophrenic view of what they are meant to do in 6th and 7th.

3rd edition: Base S4, 1A, count as armed with 2 melee weapons when using kroot rifles,+1 Cover in woods and jungles, can move through woods and jungles normally, if they do not move they can shoot through 12" of woods/jungles rather than 6", can attach kroot hounds and krootox to the unit, infiltrate.

4th edition: Same as 3rd but cannot infiltrate if krootox are attached.

6th edition: Base S3, 1A, kroot rifles no longer count as two weapons in melee and instead is AP5, gain sniper rounds which are type Heavy, TLOS rules change means no longer any need for the extra vision through woods, can move through cover (all cover so a buff), stealth in forests granting +1 cover save, can infiltrate even with krootox again.
- Here they effectively switch from a melee focused unit to a shooting focused one. Their number of attacks has dropped and the strength of those fewer attacks has dropped as well, a double blow to their melee capability. AP5 means they can now ignore some armour saves in CC but the loss of the attacks and strength makes them worse off against anything that AP would be useful for (10 kroot go from 5.75 unsaved wounds against GEQ to 3.3 unsaved wounds) and even more so against stuff which that AP5 is useless for (10 kroot go from 1.65 unsaved wounds against MEQ to 0.54 unsaved wounds, kroot can no longer damage vehicles with AV10 in melee)

7th edition: Same as 6th.

8th edition: Goodbye sniper rounds, 3+ to hit in melee, S4 with kroot rifles in melee but no extra attack, no bonuses to cover saves in forests/jungles, krootox and hounds now separate units which cannot infiltrate.

So 8th brought some of their melee ability back but they're still lacking in number of attacks. They also lost their extra protection in woods.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

murphs wrote:
Melee battlesuits would be cool. A riptide with some crazy fusion sword is easy to envision.

No. One of the major themes of the Tau is that they despise melee combat, seeing it as barbaric. Farsight is an exception, not a rule.
Leave melee combat to the auxiliaries, which is what GW should be focusing on instead of yet more battlesuits.

This. If you want to make them more capable in melee, just give the battlesuits the ability to shoot in melee with -1 to hit (which Farsight Enclaves ignores due to them training more heavily in close quarters combat) with a number of Assault or Rapid Fire weapons equal to their attack stat.

It was bad enough when GW changed them to be about big stompy robots over mobile combined arms (say what you will about the cheesiness of the Fish of Fury but at least it fit the fluff of the faction), lets not stray any further by giving them Voltron.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vankraken wrote:
Something like a XV8 that has a melee weapon, a powerful shield (aka a storm shield), stim injectors, and one of those grav field inhibitors that slow down enemy movement. I could see the Tau justifying using such suits to engage a target to delay them while the ranged elements can maneuver away from the threat and reengage after the disruption suit either disengaged from melee (hit and run or fly) or is slain.

This is what drones are for.

 Hollow wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
I think the Kroot and Vespid were supposed to fill that role, but they are so completely unsupported by the rules that no one bothers to use them.*

I have them and use them frequently, as do all of the other T'au players in my area. Don't present your very narrow experience and opinion as fact.

Sure am glad you straight up ignored my disclaimer at the bottom of that post, so that it would better fit with your angry narrative.

Ice_can wrote:
This was explained away in previous editions codex's.
Tau can do CC and are trsined in it but on the 40k scale they are bad.
Kroot used to have lots of attacks and strength bonuses and vonuses for hounds in the unit etc.
The issue is that Kroot became terrible at that role in the change to 8th, Kroot are the unit you have described if they had rules worthwhile.

This right here. Kroot currently are only slightly better at assault than Imperial Guardsmen. They were never GREAT assault units, but they were decent enough that they could overwhelm lesser units.

I think a large point of the Tau is they DON'T have melee units. It would be like giving Marines a super cheap meatshield unit.

Considering allies are a thing, Marines at least have access to a super cheap meatshield unit. Unlike Marines, Tau can't ally, and thus can't shore up their weaknesses with other Codexes.

 flandarz wrote:
Considering allies are a thing, Marines at least have access to a super cheap meatshield unit. Unlike Marines, Tau can't ally, and thus can't shore up their weaknesses with other Codexes.

But that's not a bad thing. Codicies are meant to have downsides. If you want a game that has identical sides then flip a coin to see who wins so at least it's fairer than 40k.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing. I'm saying it's a poor comparison to say "giving Tau CC units is like giving Marines a super-cheap meatshield unit", when the latter HAS access to that. My personal opinion is that allies is jank. And for the very reason you said: different Codexes should have different strengths and weaknesses. Allies allows you to throw all that right out the window.

pm713 wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
Considering allies are a thing, Marines at least have access to a super cheap meatshield unit. Unlike Marines, Tau can't ally, and thus can't shore up their weaknesses with other Codexes.

But that's not a bad thing. Codicies are meant to have downsides. If you want a game that has identical sides then flip a coin to see who wins so at least it's fairer than 40k.

IF, as he specfically said, some Codexes have a vast array of allies to plug gaps in their own armies and others don't then they have an advantage neh?

 flandarz wrote:
I'm not saying it's a bad thing. I'm saying it's a poor comparison to say "giving Tau CC units is like giving Marines a super-cheap meatshield unit", when the latter HAS access to that. My personal opinion is that allies is jank. And for the very reason you said: different Codexes should have different strengths and weaknesses. Allies allows you to throw all that right out the window.

I'll be honest here:I straight up forgot allies are a thing. I've never used or considered them, nobody I play with does and I don't count things allies bring as part of a codex.

 Hollow wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
I think the Kroot and Vespid were supposed to fill that role, but they are so completely unsupported by the rules that no one bothers to use them.*

I have them and use them frequently, as do all of the other T'au players in my area. Don't present your very narrow experience and opinion as fact.

Pot, meet kettle.

I’ve never seen anyone use Vespid in several editions. Only time I’ve ever seen someone using Kroot in 8th was as a speedbump in the same manner as one would use Cultists. So, yeah.