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2019/09/15 13:46:44
Subject: Renegades and Heretics Tactics primer, incorporated SOA.
So you have chosen the way to damnation, welcome then.
Basically the basic guide of Renegades and Heretics or how to be a mortal footsoldier of the dark gods and don't instantly die like the fodder you are supposed to play.
First with the general rules, incorporating Covenants and "Uncertain Worth":
Uncertain worth:
Spoiler:
The list represents all steps of quality for troops. They either are diehard fanatics or conscripts with 0 minimal trianing. To represent this nearly all R&H units have no fixed value of morale.
Generally D6+2 at the first test to determine the morale of the unit, will get modified by "Fanatic". Often times battle are determined in how much morale managemant and missmanagement you are doing and this rule simultaniously can be one of the biggest strengths or weaknesses, depending on the favour of the dark god of dice.
If a unit is Fanatic and determines Leadership, it instead rolls 2d6 and adds +3 to that value. This rule is found on HQ and Elite choices and generally the units you want to make your army out off.
Covenants: Covenants are basically armywide buffs provided by a renegade commander that is designated as Warlord. They come in 4 flavours, ranging from useless to worth it.
Spoiler:
Covenant of Khorne: It's a weaker Catachan Trait on worse units, still one of the better options in the right army, requires a specific build though. (S4 on charge)
Covenant of Nurgle: A 6+ invulnarable against weapons that are max S4. It's as useless as it sounds, altough it might save some dudes from the new SM and improved SM's. Largely useless though since all units allready have atleast a 6+ SV value and all weapons that ignore that are in most cases stronger then S4.
Covenant of Slaanesh: 2D6 for determining the Advance move, 3D6 for charge moves. Always discarding the lowes dice. Probably the best covenant.
Covenant of Tzeentch: Overwatch is on 5+. that's it. He, atleast you get a full turn of shooting before you inevitably get alpha striked.
Psy:
Spoiler:
Renegades and heretics have their own psy table. 3 powers in total.
Warp flux: A targetable minor smite (d3 mortals) however at your chosing. If your target is a vehicle, it instead gets D6. It's a good power at value of 7.
Creeping Terror: Chose an enemy unit within 12" subtract D3 of their leadership this battleround. Value of 7. It's ok. Not really great,AM get a more reliable version of it.
Unnatural vigour: every R&H infantry model within 6" can Re-roll failed CHarge rolls answell as hit and wound rolls in the fight phase. Value 10. This spell is a key component of the Mass Assault Khornate Archetype. Yes, Psykers and khorne, yes that is allowed in R&H for whatever reason, blame GW not me. It also severly pushes the capability of Renegade infantry in melee. Requires a specific build. Also kills models at the end of the morale phase.
Stratagems: Tough luck, you are intending to play R&H, there are no Stratagems except the BRB ones. These might come in handy. If you intend to go mono R&H this gives you one significant advantage, you don't need CP so feel free to skip the Troop units.
Warlord traits: As stratagems, however the +1 LD aura is actually a great pick since the covenant is no warlord trait. (combine with Command squad voxes and you might be able to skip Enforcers.)
Now on to the units: AM vehicles will get mentions, for more exemplary use, regard AM tactica.
First some preface, the army was in past editions heavily troop centric. This has to do with the fact that in past editions Militia was probably the Gold standard for an adaptable multipurpose tool and actually decent. in 8th, well like most FW dexes, that gold standard detiorated into a shamefull display of ineptitude on GW's part. None the less one still can make R&H somewhat work at lower point levels by simply using the Elite slot for baseline infantry needs.
HQ:
Renegade Commander:
Spoiler:
It's a IG commander, for 5 pts less with questionable morale performance and no orders. Otoh he is 5 pts cheaper and grants if he is a warlord Covenants. If you go Mono or Battery, he is your best HQ choice. Give him a Power sword and covenant of khorne , or Weapons that improve his bad S3 and watch as he does some decent meleeing, other than that, give him a lasgun or Autogun and take potshots with his good BS 3+ whilest he has the morale improving aura.
Malefic lord:
Spoiler:
Ohh boi, talk about nerfhammer, he is the charachter caster of R&H , has a 1 / 16 chance of mutating into a melee monstrosity. The hook, got a price hike by double because some people found it funny to exploit him with brimstones at the start of 8th, now double the price of his better IG counterpart he has got what is determined clinically by "the succ". Skip him, he is not even worth it in casual matches.
Rogue Psyker coven:
Spoiler:
Basically more expensive then the Malefic lord and lacking Charachter protection, since they are a unit of 5. They cast 1 psy power and deny 1 power, HOWEVER, can use 3D6 to cast or deny at the suffering of D3 mortal wounds. The unit has 5 W3 dudes, basically it exists to cast unnatural vigour in a melee mass assault list and to deny people spells. Requires a Metal bawks to hide though (because else you can just shoot the t3 dudes with some boltguns and be done with it.) Consider it for specific builds.
Troops, Oh how have you fallen.
Renegade Cultists:
Spoiler:
Imagine CSM cultists, with worse morale, lower max unit count, no that's it. It's a bad unit. Also your only basic infantry option that knows how to shoot an autogun or hit something somewhat consistently , which is sad. Also for some reasoen, despite beeing worse and stuck in an even worse army list got the cultists pricehike aswell. Can still be made into a 30 blob of melee shenanigans with the right support. Consider it depending on your army plan.
Reneagade Militia:
Spoiler:
one fo the few units to get a pricehike in it's transition from 7th to 8th. by 25 %, they cost the same as a guardsmen or conscript,yet perform worse then conscripts. No more adapting them to your army style. For some reason can get 4 Special and 2 HWT in a squad of 20, which is more slots for these weapons then the elites offer you but WS/ BS 5+ make the unit just a bad choice in most cases. Still if you go for a battery, they atleast don't wipe themselves out as mutants do. And they can carry a big ammount of special and heavy weapons. Basically if you have a plan and the propper suporting units they can get close to Okaish.
They also have 2 pieces of equipment that need a look at: Vox Caster. Roll an additional D6 when you determine their morale, also if you have comand vox squad you can replace their LD with that of the command squad. Chaos sigil: Rolls 2D6 if you do a morale test, pick the lowest result. This can lead to great shenanigans if your enemy uses a psy power to force you to add a d6. since you allready roll 2 D6 you then discard both.
Additional Rule of thumb: don't pick weapons that are more expensive then the carrier/s. F.e. there is no point in picking a heavy bolter or AC for a HWT in a squad, stick to stubbers. (especially heavy stubbers since they atleast guarantee a hit, also the HWT still got a lasgun) The squad also can be abused as additional heavy weapon squads, mostly just stubbers on top of stubbers.
Side note: Notice the statline of the Militia Champion: he has BS and WS 4+, just a heads up.
Mutants:
Spoiler:
Squad of 10-50, 4 ppm. Roll a D6 at the start of your turn, results range from losing d6 models before the fight even started to getting t4 (which makes the meh unit suddendly really annoying to deal with). Also the squad is armed with stub pistols. (the things a kelermorph has, except that these are normal non marry sue versions that means Range 6" yes 6" s3 no ap D1.) Can be replaced and will be replaced with Autoguns, lasguns and autopistol. For some reason can not get full pistol brutal assault weapon combo, like cultists can. Also stuck on the militia profiel. AND NO VOX. Basically if you field them, you are going to use either MSU or a max 50 squad with enforcer back up.
Fast Assault: Chaos Spawn R&H version:
Spoiler:
33 pts still for a chaos spawn, that got in the same CA a pricedrop in the CSM codex down to 20 ppm. Don't bother with them in R&H, also quality rulewritting from GW.
Salamander Scout tank:
Spoiler:
Think of it as more durable but restricted Sentinel. get's an AC,HB and can get a heavy stubber. It's an Ok tank, but get 2 Sentinels instead.
Sentinels:
Spoiler:
With their BS 4+ they are actually the Antitank of your army in many cases. Scouts are less durable for more mobility, and the ML down to 5 pts is acutally a decent anti infanty variation. Not as good as the IG counterparts but atlest the things hit 50% of the time, which is more then your basic troopslot accomplish. Huray i guess.
Elites: Command squad:
Spoiler:
Command squad: 4-14 Disciples, gain access to two banners , one is gaktier -1 morale for IoM, the other allows for units that died to attack 1 time. (combine with covenant of khorne and unnatural vigour in a mass charge for maximum killing capability. Yes this is the basic premise of mass assault. Command vox, functions not like a vox, but units that have a vox might use the CMD vox units LD. Combine with warlord LD +1 aura to and 2-3 Command squads and you might get LD 10 for a lot of units with voxes. (of course the CMD vox at 10 pts and the voxes at 5, do give you also a pts handicap. still consider it if you don't want to spend 30 / per squad for an enforcer.)
Also since they are disciples they gain, 1 Special and one HWT slot, at bs 3 + they are good units with a 5+ sv and fanatic.. Give the squad an AC or lascannon for some AT capability.
Command squads due to their Equipment choices are either AT or function as determining factor with their banners, for army Archetypes.
Disciples:
Spoiler:
Same as above, basically IG veterans in this instance 5-15, can get a vox aswell. Same ammount of add on firepower as command squad disciples. However unlike IG they pay 6ppm instead of 5, however have also ws 3+. Can get shotguns aswell. No melee qeuipment sadly. Still, think of them as the basic infantry instead of militia. Since in a mono R&H army you anyways don't require CP.
Marauders:
Spoiler:
Ok, Now here is a unit that is special. Come with 2 Special rules: "In it for the money": Marauders are a bunch of mercs, cruel diehard mercs. They don't do moral, instead they roll a d6, on a 1 the whole unit runs, on 2+ the mercs decide that the death of johnny at the hands of an astarte did just overall improve pay. "Specialists": Basically you get 3 options:
Murder cultists: reroll hits in melee. For a unit that has no covenant to improve S values and no access to Power weapons beyond the chief. Bad choice.
Hereteks: The unit gains SV 4+ and Krakgreanades. On top of the fact they allready have Krak greanades? It's an ok specialisation.
Stalkers: -1 to hit. At all ranges against them. Yes, that alone is great. Gains an additional +1 to their SV when in cover. Yes they have 5+ sv basic. Guess which of these is the right choice.
Additionally these dudes are the only source of sniperrifles for Chaos. 2 Special weapon slots for the unit can be filled with these. They also cost 6 pts and have 2 baseline attacks. Probably the best unit in the dex and if it weren for RO3 probably quite possibly one of the least liked units in the game. These dudes can do everything for you. 5-10 per squad aswell as the 2 mini ogryns (not worth it). Give them 2 plasma guns and throw them out of a Valkyire. Give them shotungs and meltas and throw them out a valkyrie for AT. Give them sniper rifles and Stalkers for backfield security. Or use them as Elite Infantry.
They can do anything you want them to do, just keep the enforcer away, because the Enforcer denies morale flat out for d3 dead models. Which 5/ 6 does not happen.
Enforcer:
Spoiler:
30 pts Renegade commander. However, units within 3" of him don't do morale, instead they just lose d3 models and the morale counts as resolved. Basically a Fair prenerf commisar. Combine with 50 man blob or 30 man cultist melee blob for Tarpiting something. Less funny if the dude get's sniped, because the anchor of your amry just died.
Renegade ogryn Beast handlers:
Spoiler:
It's a single ogryn with a bunch of dogs. He is Ok and quite good in melee.
Renegade ogryn brutes:
Spoiler:
Drugged up ogryns. Count as infantry so covenant of khorne boosts their allready high strength even further. 3 attacks. Gains a bonus attack if the unit has charged this turn. And has combat stimms, which is D6, 1= one ogryn is dead. 2-5 each ogryn get's +1 attack on a 6 each ogryn gets d3 attacks. If you are covenant of slaanesh, use a valkyrie. throw the drugged payload at a enemy, delete said enemy in glorious melee combat. One ogryn might be upgraded to a berserker boss, for 10 pts, that dude get's a Power drill. which is flat S10, ap-3 d3 damage and has base 4 attacks. Oh btw the standard ogryn weapon is S+1 ap-1 d2 . I hope you like playing ogryn dart. One of the better units in the army.
Renegade plague ogryns
Spoiler:
Stuck with the more then worthless covenant of nurgle, also have a tendency to detonate. Nurgle units ignore the detonation, non nurgle units, well they suffer on a 4+ one mortal wound, only fight phase though. Also their plague claws do d3 damage instead and they have no boss option. Basically why bother with these bunch when you can get the above ones? because they are now cheaper then their baseline normal version, if you just want some suicide melee units your enemy should not want to ignore, they actually are now a decent distraction carnifex.
Heavy Support:
Renegade Heavy Weapons Squad:
Spoiler:
Like their IG counterpart. Except 3-6. Also only 3ppm per Team, then the weapons. Best weapon ofcourse is the stubber. The squad is more effeicent the wyverns (catachan not withholding), so yeah, great indirect fire option or nice brigade filler with stubbers. Also really funny becaus with covenant of tzeentch that squad has the capability of wiping out light infantry chargin them. Altough when they get charged you allready have lost. Probably. Still a great unit that can ignore LOS:
FW field Artillery and vehicles: The access to FW vehicles is limited altough you get all field gun types, from emplacements to regular batteries. However, all field battery units atm are Massively overcosted.
AM Heavy support options: You get a whole slew of AM vehicls and tanks.
Hellhounds
Spoiler:
Flame tank, ol reliable, probably the only flamer unit in all of Chaos worth it's salt atm. If you want to burn something then this is it.
Basilisk:
Spoiler:
Better then their fieldbattery counterpart due to beeing actually mobile and not crewed. (also somehow cheaper?!? ) quality GW rulewriting.
leman russ:
Spoiler:
Due to beeing a bunch of murderhobbos that worship the pantheon out of shere Stupidity we don't get a commander. However the basic BC leman russ is a decent tank. Killed by the meta that was created due to GW's wisdom to implement knights. If you don't see knights tough, feel free to use a bunch of these with spikes, because as we know spikes make everything better.
Malcador:
Spoiler:
1/2 leman russ for the price of 2. What? not happy, yeah me neither. It's a nice loooking tank, but frankly never good. Feels malcador man.
Macharius:
Spoiler:
It's neither Baneblade nor real superheavy, some variants do work for Guard though. Altough guard has Stratagems worthy for tanks and tank commanders, pass on it for renegades.
Baneblade:
Spoiler:
yes we get some of them. No they don't really work, but add insult to injury by not having traits and stratagems and they work even less
Noctilith corwn:
Spoiler:
A 5++ bubble, that is growing. For 80 pts, and has some anti psy capabilities. Can be used to decent effect in a gunline list, however, it might not protect enough.At first. Also, if your enemy can deal with a knight, he can deal with the crown. Otoh, the crown is 80 pts so yea, let him waste his shots or deal with 5++ units in a bubble. Consider it in the subort gunline.
Guns: I allready mentioned this, but still:Don't equip guns more expensive then their carriers, except the carrier is a disciple/marauder! Don't please. That said, let us look at the armory:
Spoiler:
Thanks to beeing a bunch of murderhobos of chaos you, yes you, gain access to a sutpidly large ammount of Imperial and chaotic hardware:
Special weapons: - Grenade launcher: 3 pts, is okay even for militia due to averaging 3+ shots. Good choice for leftover points or when you play in the 500 pts bracket and need an allround weapon. - Plasma gun: Whilest it is hillarious, R&H pay on alll unts the expensive value for the plasmagun. Due to only BS4+ getting a discount. Still, reserved for units that are actually capable of discerning between front end of a gun and back end. (As with all PG, reccomended) - Melta: Same as plasma gun. Only real niche though on Marauders with shotguns out of a valkyre into an an enemy tank. Still, the plasma gun is better. -Flamer: Now now, little Timmy, flamers are nice and fun and i don't need to use my abmisal BS to use them. You also are stuck with the unit carrying it, and on the elites it's a waste of a good bs plattfrom and the massed options for the fodder like militia , is a waste due to the fact that militia actively wants to avoid charges like the plague. (i am fairly confident in firewarriors capability of wiping out Militia squads in melee.) Also at 6 pts it breaks the golden rule. - Sniperrifles: Marauders only, and hillarious in the 5 man sniper teams, especially when such a squads proceeds to one shot an unlucky DA and gained tripple their cost back. (it's a nice gun on great units, consider it, especially in chaos soup) - Plasma pistol: Champion equipment, that comes for 5 pts. Only really usefull if you intend to go tank hunting with a squad upclose. (has a tendency to blow your marauder chief into bits though, whihc is a shame of a 2w model.)
Heavy weapons: - Heavy bolter: no use, 8 pts it's overpriced for what it does and on the body most liekely reciving it (militia) it is a waste of equipment, get a mortar instead, or 4 stubbers. - AC: Heavier equipment that does well with decent BS, hand out to a bunch of Disciples or sentinels and gain some decent reliabile light AT fire. - Heavy Stubber: it costs 2 pts, it guarantees 1 hit on militia bodies. Did i mention it costs 2 Pts? Do you see now why the heavy bolter is not used like the trash it is? - Lascannon: Squarly in the hand of disciples, and or vehicles, this thing is your long range heavy AT, never a bad idea to pack some. - Missile Launcher: overpriced generalist is generally what is said about it. Does still Ok on Disciple bodies. -Mortar: Most people hate on it, and are forgetting that this is probably the first edition where mortars don't suck. did i mention that it also has 3+ shots? It's a good option for all kinds of militia, be they HWT squads or just the HWT in a squad. Also fills the void of non LOS fire for Chaos. As of last CA nerfed into oblivion.
Basic Infantry equipment: - Brutal assault weapon: generally a stick with barbed wire, gives +1 A. Also only caryable by commanders, Cultists and milita. - Chainsword: the fancy barbed wire stick, now with added spinning bits. - Lasgun: Ahh the classic laserpointer, except with no order back up, meaning that you need more bodies. - Autogun: The older grandpa of the laser pointer, also did we mention that the Autoguns are chambered in 8.5mm in 40k? (SOA have a stubcarabine with S4) Basically just the clearly superior option over the absolutely in no way equally stated Lasgun. - Stubpistol: 6" S3 pistol. It's trash, like the heavy bolter. - Laspistol: Actually just a laserpointer. - Autopistol: 95% sure it's an uzi, therefore superior to the laspistol. - Shotguns: Yes you can have an army equipped just with shotguns, yes that isn't really even bad with Slaanesh or Tzeentch. Yes you will be called a peasant of the rural variation.
Power weapons: - Sword: If you are not Khornate, the sword won't do work for you. Thanks S3 - Axe: Gives buff to S. Costly at 5 pts though. - Fist: khorne needed to go to the S8 bracket you want to achieve, else skip it. - Maul: +S and Ap. if you really want to invest into melee equipment then this is it.
Overall archetypes in Mono:
Spoiler:
- Stubborn Gunline: The basic premise, turn the biggest weakness of your cannonfodder into their biggest advantage. Remember how i pointed out at the start morale managment?
Basically you run Militia, you run a tzeentchian (or nurgle if you intend to spite some SM 2.0 gak) commander with the +1 LD aura, you run 3 Command squads with command voxes and the respective anti charge Banner, you then fill the troop slots with 10 man militia Squads with voxes and stubbers (47 pts/ squad that get a regular shooting phase if charged). Add some AT in the disciple bodies and some HWT's and tank support of the range variety and you got maybee not the highest Damage dealing Gunline, but a damn stubborn army that also generates a stupid ammount of CP. Bonus points for adding a Hammer to this army. Has still a tendency to disintegrate if you don't roll your statistically guaranteed 6 on a uncertain worth roll, just use a reroll though.
- Mass Assault: Cue this, play this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaTq8_ORQ4g and crush the burgoiseieerrrm ( where was i? ) i actually mean the oppressing Imperium. (Not painting this army in red, using abstuse ammount of flags, lacking faith in Khorne or morale and mentioning this in this thread will result in an Enfocer executing you for lack of faith in the motherland)
Basic premise: Khorne commander, Command squads with non bad banner, painted in red, Mutants 2-3 50 man/woman/Tentacle blobs armed with lasgun/ autogun. 2-3 Enforcer, depending on the blobs. AND 1-2 covens for casting unnatural vigour. Aswell as some supporting units. Be carefull with your enfocer positioning due to unnatural vigour damaging units that are effected by it and you don't really want to lose your enforcers. Get stuck in and and use Tripointing, massed lasgun fire and just existing on 28mm bases to suffocate your enemy.
- Renegade and Heretic A-Team: You play Slaanesh, you move, you use the best tools available, you are Achilles!
Basically, as mentioned, slaanesh route of Alpha strike and doom. Works best betweent 1000-1500 pts range and is based on ogryn dart combinations (valkyre + Ogryn payload) Whilest the foot soldiers are covered by Marauders, Disciples and Command Disciples. as for the achilles bit, ever seen a hydra ? Or anti reserve rules, or failing charges even with rerolls? yeah, here is your heel. Also big mean things. However against your average tac list the army should perform, also don't worry about Disciples against regular Human counterpart infantry, if the opportunity presents you, charge them when you can finish them. Alternatively if you are doing this in khornes name and have the dark god of Dice do your bidding, you charge anyways.
Renegades and heretics as a soup component: Sadly this is how the army is atm at it's best. Due to the above it should be clear that the Army has a hard time to work on it's own.
There are two main ways to soup: One with Renegade and Heretics as majority and once as a minorty add on to either daemons or CSM of any flavour.
Majority:
Spoiler:
As prehaps visible, and somewhat painfully learnt, R&H have not enough bite often. The lack of a bite is especially pressing against Knights, and similar tough units.
Depending on your build, (F.e. stuborn fireline,) CP intensive units can be added in. Obliterators and a DP are like with all Chaos armies prime choices, as are Terminators with combiplas.
The reverese is sadly not true, as in you can't form the the damage necessary out of renegade units. Keeping that in mind Soup has a tendency to have R&H units replaced more and more until some specific niches are only filled by them, and even these nieches are often better filled with other chaos Options. .
Minority:
Spoiler:
R&H as a minority add on generally follows 2 paths: A: You want the cheapest possible CP battery. Infact R&H does CP better then even IG, clocking in at 170 pts /5 CP. This is in essence nothing more then two commanders and 30 militia / Muties in msu squads. OVerall you get what you pay for, CP, and some waste of local oxigen reserves.(also a full brigade is dirt cheap and as you can see, the elite slot isn't the codex corpse and the Fast attack actually works.)
B: And not really mutually exclusive, if you have a really cover intensive Meta, and or charachter intensive one. To explain, Chaos lacks in most cases (except for R&H which in their history of existence had the most possible damage come from troops or Heavy Support in the form of artillery) a distinct lack of indirect fire capabilities. Renegades have not only an abundance of LoS ignoring devices which range from classic guard vehicles to stationary artillery but also the capablity to throw out speed bumbps gallore. In essence, if you form a Battalion for CP farming, you might aswell consider an addition or two of fieldguns IF you know the board to be cover heavy or mortars, or any such device. Another unit to keep in mind are the marauders, at 6 pts and with their rules in mind aswell as the only option for sniper rifles and still capable of a decent ammount of special weaponry, these are , if you intend to soup in R&H a promising unit to add. Even if you don't spend the 4 pts for sniperrifles or any other special weapon on them, 10 of these make for a durable and annoying backfield security that if you find a piece of cover have a 3+ save and a non ignorable -1 to hit modifier. (Also morale babysitting not required, HIP HIP HURRAY)
SOA:
Spoiler:
Traitor Commisar: The HQ choice that does not criple your deployment. The only one in SOA. Sadly you pay for a PF and a questionable ability.
Mallex: Thunder hammer lord. Automatically cripples your deployment and throws squads out of slots. Not good.
Firebrand: Also known as the warpinduced fartgas thrower. Between detonating and a antiprimaris flamer but not having any option for mobility really not a good unit.
Rogue Psyker: Smite spam unit. Tendency for selfdetonation but reliable at casting smite. No transport sadly but still Smite.
Black Legionaire: BlSM . BAD.
Negavolt Cultists: 3 base attacks. generates another 3 hits if you hit with a 6. 45 pts for 4 of them and they are all 1w. Still surprisingly durable due to 5++/5+++ . bit pricey and not mobile enough still a nice little distraction and or getting igored.
Beastmen: 6 pts /model up to 4 in a unit. Savage charge makes them quite the hard hitters for their points. Otoh 4 dudes with autopistols/ las pistols and a stick with barbed wire are everything but durable, but atleast T4. Consider it.
Traitor Guardsmen: 7 guardsmen with a flamer. the other 6 have probably the worst fixed equipment of all these minor units 3 with melee loadout, 3 with lasguns one of which has an krak nade. Otoh 4ppm for a guardsmen equivalent statwise looks at first glance like a godsend,especially if you look at militia. But limited equipment that is all over the place and the fact that they have no covenant and S3 make them just bad.
Cultists of the Abyss: 7 Cultists, Stubcarabine heavy stubber and GL. This is a squad that works with a lot of Dakka. sadly you are still saddled with an overpriced wannabee commissar as HQ.
I hope this helps, if you got anything to add please PM me or add it under this.
This message was edited 18 times. Last update was at 2020/01/22 08:48:12
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2019/09/15 20:47:46
Subject: Re:Renegades and Heretics Tactics primer, incorporating later SOA.
I've used R&H only as fillers in couple bigger games but they're a fun addition to Death Guard and Iron Warriors. Few experiences that come to mind.
Commanders: Didn't bother doing anything with them. In battles of 5000 and 6500pts didn't even think about these.
Militia: I used a squad of 14 or so and hid a lascannon in it. It did actually hit couple of times but didn't really work. Seems pretty useless.
Cultists: Got killed, didn't do much. Ran them with flamers. A big meh.
Mutants: I armed them with shotguns but they didn't have a chance in either game. First game they lost half of the rabble to mutation, next they got stuck in melee with Bloodthirster the moment they came on board. I'm planning on trying them again with some kinda plan.
Marauders: Now these I like. Fielded them only in the latter game but they saved me. I had two squads of 12, both with 2 melta. One sarge had bolter, other Plasma pistol. One squad was on center, we played a custom scenario where both had 500pts in the center. These I used to lure melee squads towards my main army. Other squad arrived in chimera, hopped out to secure back lines and finished Anggrath the Unbound in melee in last possible moment, earning me a draw. I was surprised they had 2 attacks, a solid unit in every way. If I ever build a pure R&H army I'm gonna build it around these. I used the Hereteks thing but Stalkers seems better?
Renegade Ogryns: Had bad luck with these, they managed to prevent my plagueburst crawler getting charged but got killed in return. Maybe I would use max squad next time.
AM support: I used a chimera to transport marauders and found it useful. Heavy flamer, stubber and bolter, kinda allround obstacle. Worked well as a support to marauders and other squishy units around. Also had an armoured sentinel with autocannon and a demolisher leman russ with lascannon and heavy bolters. They stood still in a corner all game, part of my armoured column. These worked well too, maybe militia blob with stubbers will guard them next time.
All in all R&H worked well as part of bigger army in these bigger games but fielding them on their own seems tricky. Not impossible but certainly a challenge.
2019/09/15 21:09:29
Subject: Renegades and Heretics Tactics primer, incorporating later SOA.
You realise that marauders are 5-10 and 0-2 brutes right?
Or did you mean 2x6 in a Chimera?
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2019/09/16 13:45:22
Subject: Renegades and Heretics Tactics primer, incorporating later SOA.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2019/10/07 23:43:29
Subject: Renegades and Heretics Tactics primer, incorporating later SOA.
Should be interesting, some of my list probably makes no sense but besides some special weapons these are the miniatures I have. All marauders have autoguns except the shotgun squad with brute.
2019/10/08 20:36:32
Subject: Renegades and Heretics Tactics primer, incorporating later SOA.
Issue is,only a warlord grants the covenants.
Ergo you can only have either Slaanesh or tzeentch.
Seeing as marauders don't get covenants i'd go with Slaanesh here.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also i do hope you don't alienate your opponent via picking 4 marauder squads due to rule of three.
However it should work okayish depending on your daemons.
Maybee the shotgun squad gets a bit lonely but that is okay.
Are you running the Marauders as hereteks or stalkers?
For the bunch in the chimera i'd go with heretek.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/10/08 20:40:17
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2019/10/09 14:18:33
Subject: Re:Renegades and Heretics Tactics primer, incorporating later SOA.
Friendly narrative style game so rule of three wasn't a problem, good point though.
Ran them as hereteks, I tend to learn the stats etc in around five games so I went with the easiest to remember. Didn't make a single advance in the whole game since I was defending a Bunker line and only charge I made was 4" so covenant played no part.
Ogryns did their job, counter assaulted to deepstrikers and killed Drago or whatshisname. Grey Knight Lord. Lost the last two to morale though.
Shotgun marauders were pretty useless. They managed to screen my chimera for a turn but then the cultists or mutants would have done the same.
Other marauders were good as usual. In it for the money makes them really reliable, used a single cp on a reroll whole game and no casualties due to morale.
Disciple squad was good, maybe next time I'll take two of those. Have to make a second heavy weapon team then, only have the lascannon team assembled so far. Next game with these is inside the Bunker complex and infantry only so probably heavy bolter?
2019/10/09 15:27:01
Subject: Re:Renegades and Heretics Tactics primer, incorporating later SOA.
Ferryman wrote: Friendly narrative style game so rule of three wasn't a problem, good point though.
Ran them as hereteks, I tend to learn the stats etc in around five games so I went with the easiest to remember. Didn't make a single advance in the whole game since I was defending a Bunker line and only charge I made was 4" so covenant played no part.
Ogryns did their job, counter assaulted to deepstrikers and killed Drago or whatshisname. Grey Knight Lord. Lost the last two to morale though.
Shotgun marauders were pretty useless. They managed to screen my chimera for a turn but then the cultists or mutants would have done the same.
Other marauders were good as usual. In it for the money makes them really reliable, used a single cp on a reroll whole game and no casualties due to morale.
Disciple squad was good, maybe next time I'll take two of those. Have to make a second heavy weapon team then, only have the lascannon team assembled so far. Next game with these is inside the Bunker complex and infantry only so probably heavy bolter?
no point. the heavy stubber has nearly the same effectiveness for 1/4 th of points.
If you say inside. Maybee consider a flamer or two.
Maybee. Altough gl's probably would serve you better.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2019/10/09 16:40:13
Subject: Re:Renegades and Heretics Tactics primer, incorporating later SOA.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2020/01/07 09:23:09
Subject: Renegades and Heretics Tactics primer, incorporated SOA.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also mortar has been removed as a viable option.
At 9 pts i don't ever see myself using one.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/07 10:22:25
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2020/01/08 00:45:25
Subject: Renegades and Heretics Tactics primer, incorporated SOA.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also mortar has been removed as a viable option.
At 9 pts i don't ever see myself using one.
I agree :( so heavy stubbers look like the go?
for our mainline units, absolutely.
I also mailed GW once more why our Chaos spawn and cultists didn't drop down like the rest of them, why we pay the more expensive bs price for PG / Meltas due to gw beeing missing that Milita has bs 5+ not 4+. I also aksed them for an improvement of the covenant of nurgle, what with it beeing now only "viable"* against SM.
*viable as in well, insofar covenants can be viable. (they aren't really comparatively sadly.
I also remarked on the point that we still have no answer in regards to the interaction between enforcer morale denial and Marauders. aswell as no possibility to know that the CMD vox carrier has higher morale and use it. Which is really annoying as it is a 10 pts piece of equipment that should in theory fullfill a key role but can't thanks to GW just outright ignoring us half the time i feel.
Then again i have no high hopes since GSC acolythes are now 55 pts .....
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/08 10:39:34
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2020/01/14 12:04:16
Subject: Renegades and Heretics Tactics primer, incorporated SOA.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2020/01/16 23:17:19
Subject: Re:Renegades and Heretics Tactics primer, incorporated SOA.
Thanks for this thread. I'm planning to build a renegade army based on the Sabbat crusade and this will certainly made army building easier. It's a shame the army only allows for one disciple squad. I guess I won't have as many Blood Pact as I first wished.
I'm going to try and build some stalker tanks as well. Should I run them as scout sentinels or armored sentinels?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/16 23:17:30
Ask yourself: have you rated a gallery image today?
2020/01/17 08:24:18
Subject: Re:Renegades and Heretics Tactics primer, incorporated SOA.
Mr Nobody wrote: Thanks for this thread. I'm planning to build a renegade army based on the Sabbat crusade and this will certainly made army building easier. It's a shame the army only allows for one disciple squad. I guess I won't have as many Blood Pact as I first wished.
I'm going to try and build some stalker tanks as well. Should I run them as scout sentinels or armored sentinels?
Disciples are a regular elite choices. So you can have maximum 3x15 if you want.
Further command disciples are separate, infact my main r&h army runs only on disciples/command disciples basis.
( i also use heavily modified amiriger as leman russ punishers)
That said,scout senitles are cheaper, and get a scout movement. I'd assume them to be a better option then the armored bunch
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/17 09:42:27
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2020/01/18 04:06:01
Subject: Re:Renegades and Heretics Tactics primer, incorporated SOA.
Mr Nobody wrote: Thanks for this thread. I'm planning to build a renegade army based on the Sabbat crusade and this will certainly made army building easier. It's a shame the army only allows for one disciple squad. I guess I won't have as many Blood Pact as I first wished.
I'm going to try and build some stalker tanks as well. Should I run them as scout sentinels or armored sentinels?
Disciples are a regular elite choices. So you can have maximum 3x15 if you want.
Further command disciples are separate, infact my main r&h army runs only on disciples/command disciples basis.
( i also use heavily modified amiriger as leman russ punishers)
That said,scout senitles are cheaper, and get a scout movement. I'd assume them to be a better option then the armored bunch
Really? Because when I read the IA index there's an * in the points section that means you can only take one unit per army. Maybe I'm just reading it wrong, because that does seem to be a rather dumb rule.
Ask yourself: have you rated a gallery image today?
2020/01/18 07:14:18
Subject: Renegades and Heretics Tactics primer, incorporated SOA.
Excommunicatus wrote: It's a typo. Just FW copying and pasting information that doesn't need to be there.
My Index also has the * and the blurb, but no units in the list are actually marked with an *.
Jup
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2020/01/22 03:30:39
Subject: Re:Renegades and Heretics Tactics primer, incorporated SOA.
Out of curiosity, which chaos legion would have the best synergism with R&H? I imagine a small detachment of heavy or elite choices would help give the army a bit more bite.
Ask yourself: have you rated a gallery image today?
2020/01/22 08:26:35
Subject: Renegades and Heretics Tactics primer, incorporated SOA.
they are all not very interactive with R&H.
Meaning they can't really interact at all.
That beeing said. It depends on your list.
Generally, AL specific NL or IW detachments and relics are probably your best bet. AL obliterators with conceal and an AL lord side by side make both units untargetable, yes that is a thing, if you don't go comptetitive i'd refrain from using it that way though, for obvious reasons.
Considering you don't need to waste a warlord trait on the R&H covenants, i'd imagine that you'd want a AL for certain stratagems and relics , aswell as the bonus WL trait.
After that you can go for full AL or switch it up.
Generally the CSM tactica should be able to give you some pointers.
The sad truth though, especially if you consider a fluffy AL army relying on operators moreso then rabble, you'd be better of with using cultists with the cultleader trait on a DA in an AL detachment and then add in Marauders and a commander for the feel. Rather then relying on R&H
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2020/01/27 01:31:03
Subject: Re:Renegades and Heretics Tactics primer, incorporated SOA.
So it looks GW will be releasing new books for forgeworld models and the indexes will soon be no more. I'm a tad worried that the rules for Renegades and Heretics will be gone, seeing as they don't really have nay models for them anymore. What do you think the odds are we'll lose these rules?
Ask yourself: have you rated a gallery image today?
2020/01/27 08:27:43
Subject: Re:Renegades and Heretics Tactics primer, incorporated SOA.
Mr Nobody wrote: So it looks GW will be releasing new books for forgeworld models and the indexes will soon be no more. I'm a tad worried that the rules for Renegades and Heretics will be gone, seeing as they don't really have nay models for them anymore. What do you think the odds are we'll lose these rules?
I'm afraid it is very unlikely that they will publish rules that does not have models to go with them :-(
Best case, there comes some sort of codex with all the newer chaos cult things, like the blackstone fortress stuff.
2020/01/27 08:55:08
Subject: Re:Renegades and Heretics Tactics primer, incorporated SOA.
Mr Nobody wrote: So it looks GW will be releasing new books for forgeworld models and the indexes will soon be no more. I'm a tad worried that the rules for Renegades and Heretics will be gone, seeing as they don't really have nay models for them anymore. What do you think the odds are we'll lose these rules?
I'm afraid it is very unlikely that they will publish rules that does not have models to go with them :-(
Best case, there comes some sort of codex with all the newer chaos cult things, like the blackstone fortress stuff.
R&H themselves were the answer to GW killing off the lost and the damned. i am not really afraid. and also, the BSF models are pretty much the skeletton core of the R&H list with some bells and whistles attached. CHances are imo good that we get through that.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2020/01/30 17:52:17
Subject: Re:Renegades and Heretics Tactics primer, incorporated SOA.
Mr Nobody wrote: So it looks GW will be releasing new books for forgeworld models and the indexes will soon be no more. I'm a tad worried that the rules for Renegades and Heretics will be gone, seeing as they don't really have nay models for them anymore. What do you think the odds are we'll lose these rules?
I'm afraid it is very unlikely that they will publish rules that does not have models to go with them :-(
Best case, there comes some sort of codex with all the newer chaos cult things, like the blackstone fortress stuff.
R&H themselves were the answer to GW killing off the lost and the damned. i am not really afraid. and also, the BSF models are pretty much the skeletton core of the R&H list with some bells and whistles attached. CHances are imo good that we get through that.
Think we'll get an extended range of the traitor guard troops? I'd love to get some actual tg heavy weapons teams. And actual marauders with sniper rifles .
What's your opinion on the valdor tank hunter? Personally I think it's gak.
2020/01/30 20:28:02
Subject: Re:Renegades and Heretics Tactics primer, incorporated SOA.
Mr Nobody wrote: So it looks GW will be releasing new books for forgeworld models and the indexes will soon be no more. I'm a tad worried that the rules for Renegades and Heretics will be gone, seeing as they don't really have nay models for them anymore. What do you think the odds are we'll lose these rules?
I'm afraid it is very unlikely that they will publish rules that does not have models to go with them :-(
Best case, there comes some sort of codex with all the newer chaos cult things, like the blackstone fortress stuff.
R&H themselves were the answer to GW killing off the lost and the damned. i am not really afraid. and also, the BSF models are pretty much the skeletton core of the R&H list with some bells and whistles attached. CHances are imo good that we get through that.
Think we'll get an extended range of the traitor guard troops? I'd love to get some actual tg heavy weapons teams. And actual marauders with sniper rifles .
What's your opinion on the valdor tank hunter? Personally I think it's gak.
Better not, considering the price of the allready overly expensive weapons teams. Also if the last sniper unit gw released is an indication i'd rather not pay 40$ for 3 dudes.
Jokes aside, yes i expect a propper traitor guard line, with atleast 3 units,
regular joes, along the vein of BSF, probably more meleecentric.
Weapon teams squads. (probably with stubbers instead of HB's)
And a elite formation, along the veins of scions but with the option for melee.
As for the valador, tbh, just no.
sadly
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/30 20:34:34
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2020/01/30 20:38:21
Subject: Re:Renegades and Heretics Tactics primer, incorporated SOA.
In my experience if you're putting R&H and Heretic Astartes on the same board you're almost always going to be better off either i) using the R&H as Codex: HA Cultists instead; or ii) running a min. Battalion as a CP Farm/backfield objective holders.
If you go for ii), it doesn't matter on the tabletop which Legion rules you're using, 'cause the two have no interaction at all; the R&H just stand there and die for their God(s).
Excommunicatus wrote: In my experience if you're putting R&H and Heretic Astartes on the same board you're almost always going to be better off either i) using the R&H as Codex: HA Cultists instead; or ii) running a min. Battalion as a CP Farm/backfield objective holders.
If you go for ii), it doesn't matter on the tabletop which Legion rules you're using, 'cause the two have no interaction at all; the R&H just stand there and die for their God(s).
To each their own but I find lots of mortars and a couple basilisks do a pretty good job clearing out screens for my Night Lords ds shenanigans whilst providing cp for said shenanigans.
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